More questions from a Lutheran

[jjanderson]

Psalm89:

I’m getting different answers now:

1. Mary is sinless because of through the merits of Christ’s death on Calvary.
2. But she couldn’t have become sinless unless she said yes, allowing Christ to come to earth, she held the power to say no.
3. But she was already made sinless even though Christ hadn’t come yet.

REPLY: (Sorry, can’t figure out how to do this quote thing)

1. Mary was conceive without sin through Christ’s merits.
   2 She was sinless before she said yes. She held the free will to say no.
2. Christ existed before he came to earth. “In the beginning was The Word…” The Old Testament Saints were also saved through Christ’s merits. (Continued)

 

[jjanderson]

Psalm89:

I’m getting different answers now:

1. So somehow she said yes before she was born, because God is outside of time.
2. Mary while completely free of sin, needed a savior to save her from sin. Even though sinless people do not need saviors, except in the case of Mary.
3. Mary succeeded where Adam and Eve failed (as it pertains to sin.)

REPLY:
4. No, she said yes when the Angel Gabriel came to her
5. If there were any sinless people it’s because they have a Savior not because they don’t need one.
6. Correct. Mary said “yes” to God. Adam and Eve said “no.”

 

[jjanderson]

Psalm89:

1. “by taking on a human existence, we have a God that fully understands the Human condition.” That God who is all knowing cannot know the human condition except through experience.
2. Jesus died to save us by showing love. His death and resurrection didn’t save anyone, it just showed us he is loving.
3. Pope Pius IX made Marian doctrine infallible in 1854 and condemned people who didn’t agree with it.

1. No, we have a God that’s Has always understood the human condition. By taking on human existence he allows us to know He understands the human condition.
2. I don’t think anybody said that.
3. I thought he said people condemned themselves.

Peace in Christ +

 

[Paul_W]

Psalm89:

Would it not have been more presuasive to lavish gifts on my son rather than kill and raise him?

Would it have not been more presuasive to lavish gifts on you? Much like a lover might?

If the Father had lavished gifts on the Son, and I don’t receive similar gifts, I might think He has forgotten me. If He allows me to suffer, I know He’s treating me like His son.

 

[theMutant]

Psalm89:

here is the dilemma: If we chose Christ through our freewill how did Mary do this since she did not exist prior to her being born? Catholics do not believe in the pre-existence of the soul, so the decision BY HER to accept the grace would have had to been made after she was born and had cognitive abilities–unless of course she was predestined to be sinless and was made that way from conception, which “unlimited power” seems to eliminate freewill.

Adam and Eve were sinless until they sinned. You need to remember that, from the Catholic perspective, “original sin” is a state of being, an imperfection in our existence that was not intended by God but was caused by Adam’s failure to live up to the requirements of original grace. The name of this state refers to the act by Adam and Eve which put us in this state and for them it was actual sin. The state of original sin is the inclination to commit sin. The ability to commit sin is the result of having a free will. Therefore, Mary was not predestined to be sinless. The Catholic Church emphatically teaches this in stating that Mary could have said no.

Psalm89:

1. If we are not accountable before God by one man, Adam, then how are we justified by one man, Jesus?
2. “those acts we do knowing that they are wrong” So if someone was taught that murder is not wrong ie. a Nazi youth against the Jew or a young brainwashed Muslim fundamentalist who blows himself up, God would not hold them responsible?

1: The result of original sin was the alteration of the very nature of humanity from what God had designed. Because we inherit our humanity from our parents, and we are all descended from Adam and Eve, we have inherited this fallen nature. This is the reason, and the only sense in which we are accountable before God by the actions of one man. The reason that we can be justified by one man is that the one man was also God. Because we are not descended from this one man, we must actively choose to accept that justification.

2: Scripture teaches that God has written the natural law on each person’s heart. I don’t know if the exact contents of the natural law have been defined as a matter of dogma but it is my understanding that this is basically the 10 commandments. Everyone knows, deep down, that stealing is wrong because they feel violated if someone steals from them. Everyone knows that murder is wrong because they protect their own lives. The best description I have heard on this is that the reason the 10 commandments were written in stone is that the stone represented our hardened hearts. In the case of the Nazi youth, their brainwashing might reduce their personal culpability to some extent, but that ignorance only goes so far and can never completely remove the culpability for violating the natural law because it is part of our nature.

 

[theMutant]

(continued from post #25)

Psalm89:

Before Adam and Eve fell there was no problem. They needed no Savior, because they had not sinned. It was only after they sinned that a savior was promised. So…

If we were created sinless like Adam and Eve we would NOT need a savior. If we fell we most certainly would, but we might not fall–unless you believe it was inevitable that Adam and Eve would fall. Then it would be resonable that given enough time, Mary would have fallen too. Unless of course as you stated above she was somehow “saved” before she was born, which means she sinned before she existed. ONLY SINNERS need a savior, a perfect person does not. You cannot receive grace if you are sinless. Just like it would be illogical to assume that Adam and Eve received grace before the fall.

You say that only sinners need a savior but that is not the Catholic teaching. Humanity needs a savior because our fallen nature has prevented us from being able to go to God without one. This was just as true for Mary as it is for us. Mary’s salvation came to her at the moment of her conception when she was preserved from the effect of original sin (the inclination to commit sin). You say that it is reasonable that Mary would have fallen to if given enough time, however that makes an assumption about Mary’s personal choices throughout her life. Mary DID have the ability to commit actual sin throughout her whole life but she did not have the inclination to do so. Therefore it does not necessarily follow that she would have sinned although it cannot be denied that she had the capability.

If there were no savior there would be no chance of repentance for actual sin and there would be no ability to return to the state of grace if we did sin. Therefore, as I said last time, if there were no savior and we were all created in a state of original grace, there would be no hope for us if we fell. I am not saying that we would necessarily fall, but Adam and Eve did as did many of the Angels. In providing a savior for us, God established the grounds for our hope. If we fall we can be restored, but only because we have a savior. Without Him, if we fell we would simply go to hell. This much you seem to agree with and THAT is why we needed a savior and why God, in His infinite love for us, has provided one.

 

[theMutant]

Psalm89:

From teachccd: That Mary was "she was preserved from original sin through the merits of Christ’s death on Calvary. , but Even Mary would have encountered original sin because she would not have been the pre-ordained vessel of the Living Word of God. I guess that means that she was PREDESTINED.

This is not a correct interpretation of Catholic teaching. God knows our entire lives from the moment we are created. He knew from the moment of my creation that I would be typing this message. He knew that Mary would be the one who would, of her own free will, say yes, that she would be the one who would hear the word of the lord and obey and whom all generations would call blessed because of it. Knowing this at the moment of her conception, God chose to preserve her from the state of original sin. Because God is eternal and time does not exist for Him, He knew this for all eternity. The relationship of time and eternity and the workings of the eternal God in our experience of time is a mystery (something we are not capable of fully understanding) because we are finite beings whose only experience is time. Even our descriptions of eternity are based on our understanding of time.

Catholics cannot believe in predestination – period – because it nothing less than a denial of free will.

I hope that this explanation covers the rest of what was in that post except for the following:

Psalm98:

1. Mary while completely free of sin, needed a savior to save her from sin. Even though sinless people do not need saviors, except in the case of Mary.
2. “by taking on a human existence, we have a God that fully understands the Human condition.” That God who is all knowing cannot know the human condition except through experience.
3. Jesus died to save us by showing love. His death and resurrection didn’t save anyone, it just showed us he is loving.

5: Mary needed a savior because she is a descendent of Adam and without a savior, she would have inherited Adam’s fallen nature and would have had no hope for getting to heaven. Ever since the fall of Adam, even sinless people needed a savior because Adam altered human nature so that it could not attain heaven and all of his descendents inherited this nature.
7: God fully knew the human condition but He requires human cooperation in our salvation. Because the fall of Adam prevented us from sufficient cooperation, He took it upon Himself to become man and perform the supreme and perfect act of cooperation on our behalf.
8: We are saved solely by the grace Jesus won for us on the Cross. His Sacrifice also serves as a testament to His love for us and as the example for us, but our salvation would be non-existent and meaningless if it were not for the cross. To hold otherwise is to deny a central point of the Catholic faith. This was taught in no uncertain terms by the Council of Trent (session 6).

 

[jjanderson]

Ditto on absolutely EVERYTHING theMutant said!Peace in Christ +