More refutation help please

[fred_conty]

I am currently debating two other Catholics about why women can’t be Priests. They are female, and I am not, so I cannot put forth any arguments that may sound the least bit sexist.

I have argued that Priests are male because Jesus was male, the apostles were male, and Peter, the Rock, was male. They are not convinced and think that this is a weak argument and that things have changed over time.

I have argued that Priests are male because the Church is female, they marry the Church, just as Nuns marry Jesus. They have argued that this is metaphorical and holds no ground.

One of them asked me the question “How are women spiritually different?” I have no response.

They have also argued that women cannot go as high in the structure of the Church because they cannot become Pope, Bishop, ect.

I have brought up Pope John Paul II letter stating that Priests will be male and that all the faithful should hold to this, but they throw it aside as just another thing man does.

They also may not believe that the Holy Father is infallible on spiritual matters.

Because they won’t accept Church doctrine or the Catechism or probably not the Holy Bible, I think I will have to use purely logical arguments on this one. Assuming the arguments above are lost, do any of you have any more ideas?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=146486

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.

Peter has spoken.
“Thou are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.”
“He who hears you hears me.”

Just say, we agree to disagree.

 

[sowinskija]

Thank you all for the help. I think my approach will be to make a final argument that this would distract from the Priesthood, using abuse as examples and making the conclusion that this will make problems worse. I think will then take Mr. Conty’s advice in agreeing to disagree. Decent end to this argument?

 

[Catolico65]

Thank you all for the help. I think my approach will be to make a final argument that this would distract from the Priesthood, using abuse as examples and making the conclusion that this will make problems worse. I think will then take Mr. Conty’s advice in agreeing to disagree. Decent end to this argument?

With all due respect you are leaving out a very powerful reason that could help this person seek God in their life; that would be that God has created us with different purposes yet that we can still glorify Him equally.

In the same vein, while I know it’s all the rage to say women are the equal of man but just a quick glimpse at the male human body compared to the female one would say otherwise. Saying anything else is not based on science nor much less common sense. Then again that is what diabolical political correctness does, turns everything up on it’s end to confuse people.

In the end I’d say go with the simple and obvious, our bodies are different and thus we are different, all for the glory of God.

 

[sowinskija]

With all due respect you are leaving out a very powerful reason that could help this person seek God in their life; that would be that God has created us with different purposes yet that we can still glorify Him equally.

In the same vein, while I know it’s all the rage to say women are the equal of man but just a quick glimpse at the male human body compared to the female one would say otherwise. Saying anything else is not based on science nor much less common sense. Then again that is what diabolical political correctness does, turns everything up on it’s end to confuse people.

In the end I’d say go with the simple and obvious, our bodies are different and thus we are different, all for the glory of God.

I would have to prove spiritual differences, and that men and women serve separate but complimentary roles, which i have tried and failed to do because they will not accept the infallibility of the Church or the idea that equality could be separate. This final argument looks at the secular problems that would be caused by women in the Priesthood, and uses corruption to back it up (a point they try to use to prove that the Church isn’t infallible ) I lower the bar that i have to reach to win the argument, reducing it to physical differences and the evils of mankind. I agree with your argument, but will have to win on this one i think.

 

[Catolico65]

I would have to prove spiritual differences, and that men and women serve separate but complimentary roles, which i have tried and failed to do because they will not accept the infallibility of the Church or the idea that equality could be separate. This final argument looks at the secular problems that would be caused by women in the Priesthood, and uses corruption to back it up (a point they try to use to prove that the Church isn’t infallible ) I lower the bar that i have to reach to win the argument, reducing it to physical differences and the evils of mankind. I agree with your argument, but will have to win on this one i think.

With all due respect regarding “winning the argument” in order for two parties in a discussion to accept a “victor” there has to be **consensus **from both sides regarding the topic at hand, otherwise what will happen is there will be an impasse.

Therefore, if during the conversation you don’t have a complete enough understanding of the churches stance you shouldn’t “acquiesce” by default as this could be harmful spiritually to the other party - ie your incomplete and/or incorrect justification could prove to be a justification on their part to continue their erroneous thinking.

My recommendation is to work for consensus first based on God’s law and not mans and then follow the logical conclusion. God’s law in this case would be the obvious fact that He likes variety and He has created different sexes and people with very different purposes but with the equal ability to glorify Him in different ways. Therefore, stick to the obvious differences between the sexes and people as a focus to get consensus and then work from there. Think of building a house, you start at the foundation first and then build upwards.

 

[sowinskija]

I agree, there must be a consensus. I can either reach this on a physical or spiritual level- let me explain.

My physical argument would be that allowing women into the Priesthood would corrupt the men, create distraction, deny the ability of men to give themselves entirely to God, ect. This is still spiritual, i guess, but on a level easier to grasp.

The spiritual argument i tried was that God created men and women for separate, but complimentary roles, yet it was close to impossible for me to be able to prove spiritual differences to back this up, or for me to show how this is equal. I used childbirth as an example – isn’t it not “Fair” that men are not able to have kids? But they said that this was a physical difference, not a spiritual one. This argument pretty much reached a dead end because i cant prove that some women dont recieve a legitimate vocation. Any Biblical evidence i use wont be accepted – i dont think they accept Biblical or Church teaching.

I will use the physicial argument as a last ditch effort because it can be proven logically. If Church teaching logically proves my argument, i can use it. Is there further teaching other than the “in persona Christi” and women are in the state of subjection arguments?

 

[Catolico65]

Another thing to keep in mind if the person you are speaking to has no intention of having an open mind to God, the Word would not appear logical:

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”

 

[sowinskija]

She is Catholic, so I think I can find some common line of thought on which to base argument. Pray for me please, especially to Saint Paul.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I am currently debating two other Catholics about why women can’t be Priests. They are female, and I am not, so I cannot put forth any arguments that may sound the least bit sexist.

I have argued that Priests are male because Jesus was male, the apostles were male, and Peter, the Rock, was male. They are not convinced and think that this is a weak argument and that things have changed over time.

I have argued that Priests are male because the Church is female, they marry the Church, just as Nuns marry Jesus. They have argued that this is metaphorical and holds no ground.

One of them asked me the question “How are women spiritually different?” I have no response.

They have also argued that women cannot go as high in the structure of the Church because they cannot become Pope, Bishop, ect.

I have brought up Pope John Paul II letter stating that Priests will be male and that all the faithful should hold to this, but they throw it aside as just another thing man does.

They also may not believe that the Holy Father is infallible on spiritual matters.

Because they won’t accept Church doctrine or the Catechism or probably not the Holy Bible, I think I will have to use purely logical arguments on this one. Assuming the arguments above are lost, do any of you have any more ideas?

“but they throw it aside as just another thing man does.” That right there is the sign to just walk away and ignore them. They aren’t open for a debate or discussion on the issue. They’ve already made their decision and now wish to force it upon you. You could present them with a perfect explanation as to why women can’t be priests with God Himself standing next to you and they’d just respond “Hmmpf, men. You just want to keep us down.”

 

[sowinskija]

“but they throw it aside as just another thing man does.” That right there is the sign to just walk away and ignore them. They aren’t open for a debate or discussion on the issue. They’ve already made their decision and now wish to force it upon you. You could present them with a perfect explanation as to why women can’t be priests with God Himself standing next to you and they’d just respond “Hmmpf, men. You just want to keep us down.”

Dont think she is that feminist, but i could be wrong.

 

[Catolico65]

Dont think she is that feminist, but i could be wrong.

A quick test would be to ask her if the man is the head of the family as the Bible says. If she says no I would make your best effort to point out the teachings of the Church and leave it at that. The reasoning for not expending more energy other than praying for her is the fact that it would be obvious the individual is not concerned with God’s plan.

Also, I expect this person would use “logic” to try to make her point about the “shortcomings” or “oversight” of God’s plan regarding women but this in of itself is illogical given that man probably only understand’s less than 1% of the visible universe. Therefore, when a person isn’t interested in logic it’s an uphill battle.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am currently debating two other Catholics about why women can’t be Priests. They are female, and I am not, so I cannot put forth any arguments that may sound the least bit sexist.

I have argued that Priests are male because Jesus was male, the apostles were male, and Peter, the Rock, was male. They are not convinced and think that this is a weak argument and that things have changed over time.

I have argued that Priests are male because the Church is female, they marry the Church, just as Nuns marry Jesus. They have argued that this is metaphorical and holds no ground.

One of them asked me the question “How are women spiritually different?” I have no response.

They have also argued that women cannot go as high in the structure of the Church because they cannot become Pope, Bishop, ect.

I have brought up Pope John Paul II letter stating that Priests will be male and that all the faithful should hold to this, but they throw it aside as just another thing man does.

They also may not believe that the Holy Father is infallible on spiritual matters.

Because they won’t accept Church doctrine or the Catechism or probably not the Holy Bible, I think I will have to use purely logical arguments on this one. Assuming the arguments above are lost, do any of you have any more ideas?

Sow,

You can’t win an argument. You can win a sale. Ask a series of questions that you can get “yes” to…

Do you believe that Jesus died for all sinners?..yes
Do you believe in being saved by grace, through faith, acting in love?..yes
Do you believe that through Faith with grace we can do good works?..yes

then a switch

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?..yes
Do you believe that the Church produced the Bible or birthed the Bible?..yes
Do you believe that Christ had Apostles?..yes
Do you believe that those same Apostles taught others as they were taught?..yes

another switch

Do you believe in Mortal sin?..yes
Do you believe that you should form your consicience so as to know right from wrong?..yes
Do you agree that as the Bible says that repentance is a change of mind?..yes
Do you believe that we need to constantly be transformed by the renewal of our minds as Paul says?..yes

Where are you going with this…and then…well according to the USA Catechism for Adults the formation of conscience is as follows…

The Formation of Conscience

The formation of a good conscience is another fundamental element i Christian moral teaching. “Conscience is a judgment of reason by wbi the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act” (CC no. 1796). “Man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His cm science is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary” (GS, no. 16).
Conscience represents both the more general ability we have i human beings to know what is good and right and the concrete i_^ ments we make in particular situations concerning what we should i or about what we have already done. Moral choices confront us « the decision to follow or depart from reason and the divine law. A got conscience makes judgments that conform to reason and the good da is willed by the Wisdom of God. A good conscience requires lifela formation. Each baptized follower of Christ is obliged to form his or b conscience according to objective moral standards. The Word of Gt is a principal tool in the formation of conscience when it is assimilaa by study, prayer, and practice. The prudent advice and good example a others support and enlighten our conscience. The authoritative teacH ing of the Church is an essential element in our conscience formation. Finally, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, combined with regular examinana of our conscience, will help us develop a morally sensitive conscience.

Noting that our formation of conscience requires authorative teachings of the Church and noting that in many and varied ways God spoke to us through the prophets and in these last days he spoke to us through a Son…and all that he taught the Church teaches now, and the Church authoritavely teaches now that women cannot be priests…because every Sunday and more I profess…

We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for usmen and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man ; was crucified also for us underPontius Pilate, suffered and wasburied ; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe ) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son ), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by theProphets. **And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. **We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) theresurrection of the dead and thelife of the world to come. Amen."

Recalling that this was first professed by the Bishops and we, as the faithful join in professing that we believe in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and that Church teaches authoratively that women cannot be priests…

then you ask…shall we pray together now…