More seriously discussion on theology

[cho_pilo]

God is sometimes said to be a necessary being, while humans are said to be entities that can also fail to be, in other words, we are not necessary beings.

Is our existence optional?
Are we necessary beings or not?

Discuss.

 

[Cristiano]

I think that you should go a little bit more into the detail of what you mean by necessary.
**
From Wikipedia:**

Necessary may refer to:

Something that is a required condition for something else to be the case, see necessary and sufficient condition.

A necessary truth, something that cannot fail to be true, see logical possibility.

An important task or essential thing to do at a particular time or by a particular moment.

Necessity in the context of criminal law

An action somebody may feel they must do

In some languages a “necessary” is a bathroom or toilet. In English this is an archaic usage.

An economic need enunciated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt in his 1944 Second Bill of Rights

A necessity in contract law

 

[Mumbles140]

God is sometimes said to be a necessary being, while humans are said to be entities that can also fail to be, in other words, we are not necessary beings.

Is our existence optional?
Are we necessary beings or not?

Discuss.

Our existence is not optional to us. However, it was a decision God made. He was not required to create us - who can require the Creator of all things to do anything? He did it out of love, and gave us free will and intellect so we could choose to love him or not, and not to be his drones.

Again, the same goes for necessary. God didn’t need to create us - His being is not shaped by or a result of our existence. But He chose to create us, chose to give us His Son, chose to die for us so we may be redeemed. But again, those actions were choices He made based on His creation of us - they were not based on us being necessary.

 

[Barbkw]

God is sometimes said to be a necessary being…

Are you referencing the adidge ‘if God didn’t exist, we humans would have made Him up’?

…while humans are said to be …not necessary beings…

Is our existence optional? Are we necessary beings or not?

If you believe in God - and if you believe He spoke the truth (that He created the universe) and if you believe that He created us - then I think there is something to deduce from that.

Did God create us for the universe? Or, did He created the universe for us?

If you believe - then you realize He spent 13.75 Billion years creating a universe and an Earth - and then you know that we are God’s “pearl of great price”.

Each one of us is necessary to our particular time - in God’s history of salvation.

 

[Nelka]

I think that you should go a little bit more into the detail of what you mean by necessary.
**
From Wikipedia:**

Necessary may refer to:

Something that is a required condition for something else to be the case, see necessary and sufficient condition.

A necessary truth, something that cannot fail to be true, see logical possibility.

An important task or essential thing to do at a particular time or by a particular moment.

Necessity in the context of criminal law

An action somebody may feel they must do

In some languages a “necessary” is a bathroom or toilet. In English this is an archaic usage.

An economic need enunciated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt in his 1944 Second Bill of Rights

A necessity in contract law

All the dictionaries in all the world and you pick wikipedia?

 

[Cristiano]

All the dictionaries in all the world and you pick wikipedia?

From Wikipedia:

Laziness (also called indolence) is a disinclination to activity or exertion despite having the ability to do so. It is often used as a pejorative; related terms for a person seen to be lazy include couch potato, slacker, and bludger.

 

[cho_pilo]

I think that you should go a little bit more into the detail of what you mean by necessary.

Like I asked in the OP: Is our existence optional?

In the other thread Katholish said it was.

First of all, saying we are dependent only logically means that we are not our own existence, and that we could have not existed.

Please provide some reasoning how our existence is optional; how can it be that we might also not exist.

 

[Foreigner]

God is sometimes said to be a necessary being, while humans are said to be entities that can also fail to be, in other words, we are not necessary beings.

Is our existence optional?
Are we necessary beings or not?

Discuss.

God is not necessary. Necessity requires a relative benchmark. Apart from creation, what would God be necessary to? Either that, or one must argue that as long as God has existed, creation has existed.

 

[Cristiano]

Like I asked in the OP: Is our existence optional?

In the other thread Katholish said it was.

Please provide some reasoning how our existence is optional; how can it be that we might also not exist.

Of course our existence is optional. If we are created then we are optional because a creator does not need us in order to be. If we are not created we are just a random event and then we are really optional.

 

[Cristiano]

God is not necessary. Necessity requires a relative benchmark. Apart from creation, what would God be necessary to? Either that, or one must argue that as long as God has existed, creation has existed.

God it is necessary because we know that we exists and God is existence.

 

[Katholish]

God is sometimes said to be a necessary being, while humans are said to be entities that can also fail to be, in other words, we are not necessary beings.

Is our existence optional?
Are we necessary beings or not?

Discuss.

We are not necessary beings, but contingent beings. The only being which is necessary is that which could not have been otherwise. Existence is a very part of the definition of a necessary being, it would be impossible to think of them not having existed in the past or ceasing to exist in the future.

Does that apply to us? No. We did not exist before our life on earth began. Our soul does not pre-exist the body, but the soul and body are two parts of a composite whole. We are not existence itself, but rather we get our existence from some other cause. If something receives its act of existence from a source other than itself, it is by definition not necessary being.

God could have not created us. It is theoretically possible. You may argue that since He did create us, we cannot cease to exist, but that does not mean that we are necessary beings just because we are immortal.

 

[cho_pilo]

Katholish,

I won’t address this directly myself as I am not that qualified, but I am inviting experienced apologists of this forum.

 

[Katholish]

There isn’t a Catholic apologist who would disagree with that, as the fact that God is necessary being and we are not is absolutely fundamental to Catholicism, Christianity, or really Theism in general, thought I suppose some theories of emanationism might argue tha creation is necessary in an analogous sense. I am afraid the topic might not be interesting if you are expecting a debate an opposing viewpoint.

 

[Joel_PF]

From the point of view of God, sure, we are optional. He could not have created us. He could have created a completely different universe, with no humans. Or He could have created nothing at all.

Now, from our point of view, existence is not optional, but a necessary given. What to do with it, however (including putting an end to it), is up to us.

 

[Katholish]

Actually Joel, we are incapable of ending our existence or anyone else’s for that matter. Sure you can separate the soul from the body, but existence lies primarily in the soul, and being a spiritual substance, the soul cannot be destroyed. It is necessary that once we begin to exist, we continue to exist, but that doesn’t mean our very being is necessary. I have a feeling you understand this, but I just wanted to clarify.

 

[cho_pilo]

There isn’t a Catholic apologist who would disagree with that, as the fact that God is necessary being and we are not is absolutely fundamental to Catholicism, Christianity, or really Theism in general, thought I suppose some theories of emanationism might argue tha creation is necessary in an analogous sense. I am afraid the topic might not be interesting if you are expecting a debate an opposing viewpoint.

Indeed, it might not be interesting to debate viewpoints that are very different.

If your view is the stand of the Catholics/Christians, I want to see what others (non-Christians) have to say on this topic. I was more interested in seeing how Catholics and others would handle that difference.

 

[Filippo_Bruno]

People with my particular beliefs do consider God to be necessary – but also consider the distinction between God and the universe to be superficial or illusory.