More torn feelings: this time over immigration

[Tietjen]

**CCC 1759 **
“An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

So, if I understand you correctly, Catholics should view violations of American law as acts of “evil”. Gottcha. Those that cross the border (or stay beyond their visa date) in order to feed their children are therefore committing acts of “evil” never mind their “good intention.” Well, you’ll have to excuse me if I take a more Catholic view on the matter. I doubt that God sees a U.S. border as a line which separates His call to charity from what He determines to be good. Using your view of man-made law, one could argue that since slavery was permitted in the U.S. by the man-made government, those that helped slaves escape their masters were committing acts of “evil” since to do so was illegal. Also, in Germany during WWII all those priests and others helping the Jews escape death camps (thus breaking a man-made law) must have been “evil”. Charity toward man is not a mere “good intention,” it is a God given commandment.
Mark 12:28-31:

28 One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, “Which is the first of all the commandments?”
29 Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!
30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Now you can place man’s law above God’s if you choose. You can use the tactic of calling “good” “evil” and “evil” “good” if you like. You can even side with abortion (since that too is protected under the man-made law) however, just because you do these things does not bend God’s law. If it were not for the USCCB and the Holy Father speaking out on the issue of immigration, I would be right there with you. But, having read what was said, and having thought about it, I cannot as a Catholic support certain aspects of the current law on immigration because doing so, would be uncharitable and against God’s law (which I respect much higher than U.S. law). Therefore, I support the USCCB in their call for reform. That’s NOT to say that borders should not exist; but rather to call for a process whereby men and women (regardless of national origin) who are attempting to feed their children and families are not branded “criminal” or “evil” simply because they want their children, wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, etc to live. Anything less is unchristian.

 

[tafan]

Sir, I am Ultramontane
and if you remember correctly our Bishops Conference was instrumental in giving us ObamaCare …with abortion.

krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/2010/08/bizarre-statement-from-malta-bishops.html

First of all, let me say that I am completely opposed to the ObamaCare healthcare package.

Secondly, this is a gross misrepresentation of the what happened. Every involvemnet I remember being reported on the bishops’ conference with the healthcare legislation directly addressed the issue of abortion.

To even imply that the USCCB was instramental in the federal funding of abortion, without any direct evidence to back it up, is a gross calumny and this is a serious sin. For your own sake, you should either retract the statment or provide evidence of its truth.

 

[RB2]

First of all, let me say that I am completely opposed to the ObamaCare healthcare package.

Secondly, this is a gross misrepresentation of the what happened. Every involvemnet I remember being reported on the bishops’ conference with the healthcare legislation directly addressed the issue of abortion.

To even imply that the USCCB was instramental in the federal funding of abortion, without any direct evidence to back it up, is a gross calumny and this is a serious sin. For your own sake, you should either retract the statment or provide evidence of its truth.

Your a game player, twisting my words, ignoring my punctuation.
Good day

 

[tafan]

Your a game player, twisting my words, ignoring my punctuation.
Good day

If I misunderstood you, please clarified your point. It seemed obvious that your implication was that the Bishops were instrumental in the passing of Obamacare with abortion support in it. If I misunderstood, I can only assume others did also, so please clarify. You cannot allow for that type of misunderstanding of your words to persist. I was certainly NOT trying to twist your words.

 

[RB2]

If I misunderstood you, please clarified your point. It seemed obvious that your implication was that the Bishops were instrumental in the passing of Obamacare with abortion support in it. If I misunderstood, I can only assume others did also, so please clarify. You cannot allow for that type of misunderstanding of your words to persist. I was certainly NOT trying to twist your words.

Geez dude!
Do your games ever stop?

 

[tafan]

Geez dude!
Do your games ever stop?

No games, I am serious. I am continually appalled at the horrid behavior the topic of immigration brings out in people of good faith. You words about the bishop is an example. You simply cannot make accusations like that without substantiation. It is wrong.

 

[RB2]

No games, I am serious. I am continually appalled at the horrid behavior the topic of immigration brings out in people of good faith. You words about the bishop is an example. You simply cannot make accusations like that without substantiation. It is wrong.

Maybe its best you moved on, and smelled someone else’s underwear.

 

[tafan]

Maybe its best you moved on, and smelled someone else’s underwear.

You have had two or three chances to clarify any misunderstanding I had relative to the post in question. It is becoming more and more apparent that my initial reading of the post was accurate. I will also remind you that the post in question was in response to a post where I explicitly stated that there are justifiable criticisms to be made of the USCCB and all I did was try to be specific that they do not exist in a vacuum relative to the Vatican. They were created under the Vatican auspices and have specific functions delegated to them by the Vatican. That was my only point, and you chose to respond by a calumnous statemnet. Why should I move on?

 

[RB2]

I flagged you to the moderator for being overtly confrontational.
Hopefully this is the nail in your coffin towards continual responding and misrepresentations of what I said.

 

[Saint_Castulus]

I made a similar thread a few weeks ago about how I am ambivalent on the death penalty. But now I’ve been thinking about the immigration issue, and again, I don’t agree with the Church’s teachings.

I’m against amnesty for illegal aliens. I think it’s unfair for people to just come across the border and live on welfare checks of a foreign country. I don’t blame anyone for wanting a better life. I understand that Mexico is a dangerous third-world country, full of poverty, drug cartels, gang violence, and corrupt government. But that doesn’t mean someone should just get a free pass. Plus, “anchor babies” are obviously wrong, because US citizenship is the only reason the parents want the children.

There’s a conflict between the civil rights of the poor and the safety of America’s current citizens. We can’t just let everyone in; the last thing our nation’s children need is more drugs, crime, and moral decay.

I am second generation Mexican my Mexican immigrant father was a world war 2 vet as thus gained citizenship, from my perspective if you want someone to blame? blame the people that hire illegals and the goverment officials that turn a blind eye:blush:, why? Mexicans are viewed as a cheap source of labor, if our lovely government would allow them to come over here by legal means, such as work permits, God forbid they may be payed a fair wage and given benefits? most mexicans I know are here because back home things are REAL bad:blush: they work hard and fly under the radar.No where in the world do two bordering countries have such a disparity in quality of life…why is that? corruption on both sides of the border due to greed.My main point is please…ask yourself why your government allows them to enter our country? corruption, corruption! illegals are victims, that is why our church is an advocate for them.Safety? plenty of Americans are criminals, want to suppport moral decay? keep on supporting our political system that caters to the rich and powerful…the same rich and powerful that love cheap mexican labor.that $2.00 head of lettuce you bought the other day would be $6.00 if an “AMERICAN” harvested it, is that a knock on Americans…not even but that does cut into the profit of the aforementioned rich and powerful

 

[elts1956]

What teaching of the Church, specifically, do you not agree with? Is there a document you are referring to, or particular paragraphs in documents? Can you articulate what you believe the Church’s teaching to be?

Do you have evidence that people “just come across the border and live on welfare checks”? On what are you basing this assumption?

What free pass are you referring to?

And you know this is the “only rason” the parents want the children, how exactly? You are making a very large assumption.

An equally plausible alternative is that parents love their children and both want to have children and want their children to have a better life (which US citizenship will give them).

A third plausible situation is one in which an illegal immigrant becomes pregnant while in the US, either with a US citizen, legal resident, or another illegal immigrant and has her child where she happens to be at the moment: in the US.

I am not making an assertion as to whether the parents actions are right or wrong, as it pertains to the law. I am, however, challenging your assertion regarding the motivation of **all **illegal immigrants who have children in the US. I don’t believe you can ascribe **one **motive to every single person.

You have made yet again another assumption that those who immigrate illegally are all guilty of drugs, crime, and moral decay.

Can you prove this in any way?

I think you are tilting at windmills. You say you “don’t agree” with the Church’s teaching, but you never indicate what this teaching is you don’t agree with.

You then spend the rest of your posts making unfounded assertions.

Doesn’t seem like a well-reasoned argument to me.

My beef with the Bishops and immigration is that they have made no distinction between illegal and legal immigrants. The US has a “law” against allowing illegal immigrants to come over the US/Mexican border. Laws are made to be upheld. Among the thousands of illegal immigrants who have chosen to walk, or run, across the border there is also the threat of drug dealers and violence. Do I blame the people who are running in fear of their lives, or trying to afford food on the table and roofs over their heads by taking the chance of entering this country illegally? No, I might just do the same. But a law is a law is a law. A law is to first protect the citizens of a country. We are not being protected.

The good Bishops should be the first to uphold a just law for the citizens of this country.

 

[Tietjen]

Your a game player, twisting my words, ignoring my punctuation.
Good day

I didn’t see any twisting of words. Perhaps your argument begins and ends with the statement:

RB2:

I’m pretty much against the USCCB in principal at this present time, they have no legal standing in relation to me within the Church. They exist thats it!

 

[DavidPalm]

If I misunderstood you, please clarified your point. It seemed obvious that your implication was that the Bishops were instrumental in the passing of Obamacare with abortion support in it. If I misunderstood, I can only assume others did also, so please clarify. You cannot allow for that type of misunderstanding of your words to persist. I was certainly NOT trying to twist your words.

I read RB2’s post just the same way. I too think a clarification is warranted.

I am second generation Mexican my Mexican immigrant father was a world war 2 vet as thus gained citizenship, from my perspective if you want someone to blame? blame the people that hire illegals and the goverment officials that turn a blind eye:blush:, why? Mexicans are viewed as a cheap source of labor, if our lovely government would allow them to come over here by legal means, such as work permits, God forbid they may be payed a fair wage and given benefits?

Exactly! If the government was serious about this problem, they would put serious fines on the employers. But ultimately, the American people are not serious about this, because they do not want to pay a just wage for the production of their food, the cleaning of their houses, the care of their lawns, etc. We want it cheap and we don’t care (enough) about who gets harmed.

 

[Beeline]

I read RB2’s post just the same way. I too think a clarification is warranted.

Problematic, not really
Let’s do some substitution

and if you remember correctly our Bob Stupak{Bishops Conference} was instrumental in giving us ObamaCare …with abortion.

and if you remember correctly Neville Chamberlin{our Bishops Conference} was instrumental in giving us peace {ObamaCare} …with war {abortion}.

All of these people Neville Chameberlin,Bob Stupak and the Bishops were political patsies not dealing with realities.

 

[Saint_Castulus]

I read RB2’s post just the same way. I too think a clarification is warranted.

Exactly! If the government was serious about this problem, they would put serious fines on the employers. But ultimately, the American people are not serious about this, because they do not want to pay a just wage for the production of their food, the cleaning of their houses, the care of their lawns, etc. We want it cheap and we don’t care (enough) about who gets harmed.

yes,you can include all that benefit from cheap labor.I am willing to pay a fair wage however the core problem would be the employers being allowed to exploit illegals and back again to a corrupt Mexican and united states government, very un Christian are their greedy ways fix the corrupt political system and citizens will more than likely stay home? maybe the original poster misdirects his anger?