Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[rinnie]

Rinnie!..Yes, and they were given the power to forgive sins by Jesus Christ…

That is the difference…power…the power to bring us the Eucharist, to forgive sins, to heal and reconcile, to offer Jesus Christ as sacrifice for the atonement of sin…

A priest spends many years in the seminary and part of their training covers metaphysics…the study of reality, logic, reason.

Kathleene Do you think I do not agree with this or something:shrug:

 

[KathleenGee]

The concept of a Catholic priest from a Mormon priest is very diffierent, and according to an article I read it underscored the word, ‘power’.

I thought I was affirming…

Somehow this thread is the only one I have had misunderstandings…someone thought I considered him a convert when I was addressing my comment to someone who said he came into the church 10 years ago…

 

[dianaiad]

When I share the good our church has done not only for the faith but also for society, this is also my response to what the Mormons think of Catholicism.

SteveVH…I was being hit by a very quick lady with nimble fingers and was amazed at all the savvy she has… I don’t have such computer skills…I finally saw the post and it was like this:

                  ___                 

.... on my big computer screen with many ballistic responses open and shaded.

I found the post and acknowledged it in #245.

Unfortunately, despite my attempts the book was gone and I assume it was pulled, as were others during that time the Mormons were removing unpopular materials, it being around 2005.

Likewise I don’t hear any apology either from them for holding on to such for a very long time. Sorry I misunderstood you, Steve, but agree with your stand on our church.

Kathleen…

first you claim that this wording (which no Mormon has ever used, but that other anti-Catholics HAVE used) appeared in “the Pearl of Great Price.” Then you claim that when you went back to the store, the clerks had never HEARD of “the Pearl of Great Price,” and that it must have been 'pulled."

We see that “The Pearl of Great Price” has no such language in it. It has never had such language in it. “The Pearl of Great Price” is a book that we consider to be scripture, right up there with the Bible and the Book of Mormon. It would NEVER have been ‘pulled,’ and clerks in an LDS bookstore would absolutly have known about it.

For them, or for the church headquarters, not to know about “The Pearl of Great Price” is like going to a Catholic book store and having the clerks not know what a Rosary is.

Now you are demanding that we apologize for 'holding on to these opinions for such a long time…" Kathleen, HOW old were the quotes that Rebecca gave us, again? A century and a half old? Nobody has been able to come up with quotes that are any newer than the turn of the century—the TWENTIETH century. I don’t think that anybody could call that ‘holding on to such for a very long time.’

Nor did any of those quotes use the wording you claimed for them. Yes, the wording they used meant the same thing, and that is bad enough. However, they did NOT use 'whoredaughters…" and that’s important because anti-Catholics now DO use that specific word…but Mormons don’t. So you saw the word (you didn’t make it up… Who WOULD make something like that up?)…but not in an LDS quote.

So to get this clear: it has been proven to you that the book you claim had that language did not have it. It has been proven to you that the title you claim these quotes were in is the title of something so important to us that there is NO way that an LDS bookstore, or the church offices in SLC, wouldn’t know about it. It’s like a Catholic priest claiming that he doesn’t know about the Book of Matthew.

And you now are claiming that the book you read was ‘pulled,’ because the church was covering it up?

How about…it never existed?

I think that you read that exact wording. I think that you picked it up and read it in an “anti-cult” publication that was going after Catholics AND Mormons, probably (most of those people do target both faiths) and it stuck in your mind. Most of the things you claim that our church believes or does are obviously gleaned from ant-Mormon sites; the types of errors are pretty obvious.

You remind me of a conversation I had with someone (it may even have been here on CAF…I can’t quite remember…) who claimed that we had changed the Book of Mormon text in a rather important way…and then when it was pointed out to him that the wording he insisted it contained was not IN it, claimed that we had ‘changed it back.’

when we (and I’m including Catholics and Protestants in this, as well as Mormons) went through every edition of the Book of Mormon ever printed, and proved to this man that the wording he insisted was there never appeared in any edition, he went on to claim that he actually had a copy of the book, but that unfortunately he had given it away or something and no longer had it available to him.

So, he claimed, if nobody could find a single edition of the book that had this statement in it, then the only possible reason was that the church had removed all the copies with the damning sentence in it, and erased all evidence of the printing of that edition.

It couldn’t possibly be because he was wrong. The church was conniving, and evil, and covering up everything…OF COURSE it was, or else we’d have that book with that statement in it right now!

I am, indeed, rather forcibly reminded of that incident.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad:

Thank you for asking.

I believe Jesus is the Christ because I have a wonderful teacher, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. It has taught me to look at scripture in an amazing way, to see that all of the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ; He is the Lamb that the Jews would anticipate since Abraham proclaimed “God Himself will provide the Lamb”. His is the saving Lamb foreshadowed by the Passover (the Lamb that had to be slaughtered, his blood sprinkled and his flesh eaten). He is the suffering servant prophesied by Isaiah. I would have to write a book but, thankfully, it has already been done, actually 46 of them. Read the Old Testament.<snip to here, for space>

God bless you.

Ok, so you believe because you have read the scriptures, have been taught by those you trust, and have put the principles of what you read into your life and seen the results.

Did I miss something?

Diana, being serious.

 

[KathleenGee]

Dianaid,

Apparently you and your church continued to keep such texts tolerated for a very long time. The onus is on your church, not me. They kept it in that Deseret store in a most affluent area where any body can go in and take a peek…I did so coming in to find greater understanding reading your texts from your sources and be on common ground. To insinuate any other projection on me for coming in there in the first place is yours to own, not mine.

As your church has now been cleaning up its books and rituals, that is very good, but it missed this one. Who knows if this book or writings had a more prominent place in doctrine in previous times.

As for harlots or whores…in this region, we have highly vocal/visual souls who still hang on to the early 1800 to mid mindset…harlot or whore…the JW’s, the 7th Day…bigotry sometimes dies hard here and we have our share. To me the words mean the same…I used them. But the sentiment is the same to me.

Sorry the onus is on your church for its shady ‘theology’ and its stand against my faith and church.If the Mormon church considers itself truly Christian, it is about time to stop being so self-righteous and start recognizing the truth that we have. We are all equal before the eyes of God.

I say welcome, Mormon Church, to the greater Christian community!

Maybe, Dianaid, there will be another thread we can exchange more amiably. God bless you and your loved ones. Merry Christmas.

 

[SteveVH]

Dianaiad:

How does one actually have a meaningful coversation with you? In order to avoid my question concerning the importance of the "burning in the heart’ to the Mormon faith you instead asked me for the basis of my belief in Jesus Christ. I answered you in fairly great detail and your response is basically “so what?”.

Is it the fact that my faith is based upon actual evidence of authenticity while yours is based upon doctines found nowhere in the historical Church, golden plates that have mysteriously disappeared, civilizations for which there is absolutely no evidence, the claims of a man and a feeling in your heart?

Did I miss something?

 

[Stephen168]

. Why…y’all actually apologized to Galleleo for convicting him of heresy for daring to say that the earth moved around the sun.

You are wrong but I guess it is all you got to try a defend Mormonism. Science distroyed the Book of Mormon and makes Joseph Smith a liar.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Originally Posted by dianaiad
. Why…y’all actually apologized to Galleleo for convicting him of heresy for daring to say that the earth moved around the sun.

First I want to say to you Diane…run to the Christmas Mass, as it is Christmas itself. I say this with the love of Christ in my heart. It is His Spirit that prompted this not me.

Galileo remained a staunch Catholic, his pride, as well as the popes collided, this is our Church. Our first pope denied Jesus three times and yet Jesus still placed him in charge of our Church through the Holy Spirit on earth. Jesus is the reason for our hope, Jesus was the reason for Peters hope. Jesus is out Lord and God.

. The failings that take place in our church is precisely why we all attend, including all of the Popes, Mother Teresa, all the Saints. We all have this cancer called sin; yes we do believe in original sin as do all Christians. We take this sin both original and personal to the greatest of physicians. We acknowledge this sin together and we ask all of the Saints in heaven and our brothers and sisters to pray for us to the Lord our God. Out of this we find Joy and His love for us in spite of ourselves. We don’t need to look outside of our Church for this “Great Apostasy” as we understand that this is why Jesus formed His Church. We spend a lifetime straying away but as long as we utilize the Sacraments in our lives we don’t stray very far. When we do go to far he always comes to us, (Christmas) helps this lost lamb get un stuck from the barbed wire fence, places this lost lamb upon his back, (Good Friday/ Crucifix) blood, sweat and all, and carries “me” personally back home. (Resurection)

This parable is me…this parable is our Church. Jesus takes away our sin. We can’t do it on our own as we are not that kind of church.

"The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from? He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up? He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters,…

“First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholic RCIA

I really sense such a devout spirit of the Lord in you…

 

[courtiswa]

Stephen 168 is false in his claim that science proves that Mormonism is false and Joseph Smith is a liar.

As far as I am concerned, when Catholics such as him are bothered or threatened by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I say this in defense of my Mormon friends, who I am sure are aware of those who do not like them and make up things to prove their point and build up their arrogance.

Respect the fact that Mormonism has brought a lot of people to God. I know folks that do not believe, who think we are nuts because we believe. Did you think about that as you attack Mormonism?

 

[KathleenGee]

When anybody, any human being hears something very different about how the world is viewed, the first reaction is global warming…I mean, that is a pun…

People in the world thought the world flat…doesn’t matter their class or distinction or what else they believed in…human beings thought the world was flat.

So somebody out there was blessed with a great and gifted mind who began to perceive that the world was not flat, but round. He did more observations and came to the conclusion that the world was indeed round.

When the people of the world heard this, they were astounded…all walks of life…Galileo was correct. And the Church also initially refuted him…the humanity did…

But where Galileo got into trouble was then he entered into the world of theology, not his jurisdiction, he got into it just like people do here on Catholic Answers and he made some wrong assumptions. And he got it just like we all get it here on Catholic Answers.

Since then, ships have sailed the seas, airplanes have flown over the earth…but people think the Catholic Church was still holding it against Galileo that the world was round, insinuating that perhaps the Church privately holds that somehow the world is still flat.

No, it was Galileo’s theological points that were disputed and the politics involved.

Same thing with the Spanish Inquisition. Two 1830’s American fundamentalist men got into some records and said true things against the Church but out of context. The Dominicans, the highest ranking religious congregation of men and noted for their fruits of theology, kept objective and painstaking notes of the Inquisition.

Jewish people were allowed to keep their beliefs. Spain had been plundered by the Moors for over 700 years and there was a time that dhimmitude was forced on the Spanish Catholic population. It has been said that oftentimes the victim becomes like the abuser, and I heard that reference to Spain by my Far East teacher, non-Catholic, many years ago when I was in high school…I read a little of Spain’s history and it has been brutal.

But the issue of the Spanish Inquisition was that non-Catholics were receiving the Eucharist without faith and that is a sacrilege. The people were following Apostolic Tradition in keeping the Eucharist protected and honored. No unbeliever is ever supposed to receive the Eucharist. The excesses and abuses were committed by laypeople…and any Catholic knows of a few contentious parishes or individuals in them who put the pastor through alot, and do not listen or follow him, a real cross to put up with.

Anyhoo…the documents of the Spanish Inquisition were finally opened around the year of 2003. And they proved what many of us long thought, and that is the excesses were done by lay people, 6,000 people were put to death. I have not read the documents so I don’t know the details. But what the documents do show is that the Dominicans removed charges against the vast majority of those accused.

Today we are dealing with the controversy surrounding Pope Eugenio of WWII. Jewish sectors are opposing his candidacy for the sainthood. My father was in the Benedictine seminary for 2 years right before America entered WWII. People were hearing allegations of Nazi atrocities against Jews and Slavic people but weren’t sure how true or extensive these allegations were.

My father obtained the ‘Black Book of Poland’, dated 1941, and in it showed pictures of German priests being executed for opposing Nazism, close to 3,000 of them, the Jews wearing stars and then being hung in public, Nazis taking over Jewish and Polish homes and running the people out, the shootings on the streets. The sense of my father towards the pope at that time was that he was doing everything he could to protect and save Jewish lives.

This summer I was listening to talk radio and a Jewish gentleman came on to speak about Pope Eugenio. I must try to find this man’s webpage because they are devoted to peace in the world. He held the same position against P. Eugenio. But then researching he found out just how much the Holy Father was helping the Jews. Afterwards, the Jewish people gave the Holy Father a commemoration for all the good he did.

So many years later, a play came out called, ‘The Deputy’. It was a play written by someone that was primarily responsible for defaming the pope and through the art form — touching on deep recesses of the heart, and the play in turn caused more and more to believe P Eugenio did little for the Jewish people, and thus we have this controversy and disinformation.

As the researcher continued, he then found out that the KGB had someone create this allegation using a play as another attack on the Catholic Church as being anti-Jewish and using the Holy Father as the key sign of its anti-Semitism.

I came to the Jewish man’s site this past year and it is distinguished, scholarly and international in scope. I will pass it on just as the Hebrew Catholics are a site many should visit to see how profound our own Jewish roots are.

‘Pope’ is an English word and English speaking people say it with a perception the Latin’s do not share. In the Latin world and some other places, the Holy Father is simply called ‘Papa’. I worked with Italian priests and it was endearing to hear them speaking about a dispute and how Papa just didn’t know what was going on there and he had to know…very relational and integrated.

Papa. I have seen some very brief film clips of P. Eugenio going outside and looking up to heaven praying to God to spare them and the churches from all the destruction of WW II. He is someone to study. He is becoming a saint now and let’s pray the truth come out of how this controversy even started.

Last night I prayed for everyone on Catholic Answers that we may be one and know that it is the devil himself, the father of lies, that causes trouble everywhere.

 

[dianaiad]

This reminds me of when I visited my parents while they were on a mormon mission in the southern US. I went to their testimony meeting, where, a new convert to mormonism stood to say, he knew Joseph Smith was called by God to start the Mormon church. So, my dear mother stood up afterward to correct the poor fellow. Telling him Joseph Smith did not START the mormon church, he RESTORED it.

Well, I hope your mother was kind in her remarks–but she was correct.

 

[dianaiad]

Just that arument alone makes no sense, that Christians were gropping in darkness for 17 centuries, that the keys given to Peter were taken back to heaven until Jospeph Smith. IWhen you undertood what the “Body of Christ” means you would see it.

The restoration argument that your church was built on is foolish, like the man who builds his home on sand.

Two many scriptures, way to many Saints… “And lo I will be with you always until the end of the age” Or “I will not leave you orphaned” if you want me to post them all I will. Its just not one passage, its the whole Old and New Testement. Jesus would not leave His Church…He is the Church, we are of His body, the One body of Christ (Hard to understand if you do not beleive in the Trinity) You need the Holy Spirit in you to come to that.

When you study the foundation that Christ established for His Church all you find is truth. After I was baptized 11 years ago I created the [www.utahmission](http://www.utahmission/).com website because of the truth I had discovered. I clearly saw my fallen nature for the first time, I clearly saw Gods nature, why he has such great love for me, because of His love for Jesus. There is not a better breed of people who can do a better job than Jesus, we are all sinners.

It is my testimony that the LDS church brings false witness against true authentic Christianity. I believe with all of my heart, that because of those within this church they will, and our moving towards Christianity. But for today the false witness against the Church that Christ built remains by word and by deed. If you get a chance read this, it is by our Liturgist here in Northern Utah regarding Missionary work. It is so different than the LDS missionary work, this writing really hits the core of authentic Christianity.
utahmission.com/pages/Here_I_am.html

This is from the Catechism about bearing false witness, about truth
2476 False witness and perjury. When it is made publicly, a statement contrary to the truth takes on a particular gravity. In court it becomes false witness.276 When it is under oath, it is perjury. Acts such as these contribute to condemnation of the innocent, exoneration of the guilty, or the increased punishment of the accused.277 They gravely compromise the exercise of justice and the fairness of judicial decisions.

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of *detraction *who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
• of *calumny *who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

Continued…
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm about what it means to lie

“All suitable ways…?”

Well now, THERE is a loophole big enough to drive an army through…

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, And My mistake. I stand to be corrected. The Catholic Church was not started by Peter it was started by Jesus Christ. It was build on Peter. Let me give you the words.

You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church. See there it is in the words of God. I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. I must be more clear, my mistake.

Something Joe said on this site once, He said name any church and I will tell you the founder. The RCC was the only Church started by Jesus Christ.

Even your church was started by Joseph Smith:shrug:

Well, if Joe was just bragging about his memory and his broad knowledge set, that’s one thing. However, if he was hinting that the name of the church contains that information, you might have a problem…"Catholic,’ / “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”

…and we do not believe that the very early church was founded upon Peter, but upon revelation–that thing which enabled Peter to know that Jesus was the Christ. Reading that scripture in context shows this.

 

[TheosisM]

Well, if Joe was just bragging about his memory and his broad knowledge set, that’s one thing. However, if he was hinting that the name of the church contains that information, you might have a problem…"Catholic,’ / “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”

Of course he wasn’t hinting at anything regarding the name itself. He said to name a church and he can tell you the founder, i.e. “Lutheran Church(es)”-Martin Luther.

…and we do not believe that the very early church was founded upon Peter, but upon revelation–that thing which enabled Peter to know that Jesus was the Christ. Reading that scripture in context shows this.

Reading the scripture in context shows us that Peter (meaning “rock”) is the rock being discussed, but it isn’t that simple. It is because of his faith in Jesus Christ that he was able to become the rock, and hold the primacy among the apostles that is evident. In Catholicism, this dual understanding of the passage (rock= peter, rock=faith) is important, since it is from his faith that Simon became Peter/rock.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I hope your mother was kind in her remarks–but she was correct.

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen 168 is false in his claim that science proves that Mormonism is false and Joseph Smith is a liar.

Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon tells the story of the source (where they came from) of the native peoples of the Americas. Science has shown that to be false. So the story of the Book of Mormon is false and Joseph Smith lied about it. If a Mormon teaches the scientic view, they will be excommunicated.

As far as I am concerned, when Catholics such as him are bothered or threatened by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I say this in defense of my Mormon friends, who I am sure are aware of those who do not like them and make up things to prove their point and build up their arrogance.

Respect the fact that Mormonism has brought a lot of people to God. I know folks that do not believe, who think we are nuts because we believe.

Another one I see.

Did you think about that as you attack Mormonism?

Just the facts

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaid,

Apparently you and your church continued to keep such texts tolerated for a very long time. The onus is on your church, not me. They kept it in that Deseret store in a most affluent area where any body can go in and take a peek…I did so coming in to find greater understanding reading your texts from your sources and be on common ground. To insinuate any other projection on me for coming in there in the first place is yours to own, not mine.

Except…according to your own statement, they didn’t. They “pulled” it. Kathleen, you sound like a really sweet person with a great deal of personal faith in Christ. I wish you nothing but good.

In this thing, however, you are all wet. I’m sorry, but the publications that Rebecca got her qoutes out of…the Journal of Discourses and the ‘Times and Seasons?" You can’t find either one in a Deseret Book store. Or rather, you can find the Journal of Discourses if you order them, and perhaps in the larger ones, but they are several volumes worth of speeches.Selling the “Times and Seasons” in a Deseret Bookstore would be like a Barnes and Noble selling the collected back issues of “Old Richard’s Almanac”’ It’s not really feasable,

…and the texts to both are online and searchable; the copywrite is long expired.

We aren’t going to cover up either of these publications because a couple of the contributors said things we aren’t comfortable with. That would be dishonest to ourselves and our history. It would be like the Catholics taking their entire history and throwing it in the shredder because of Innocent III and the Albegensians, or because of the Papal Bulls mandating slavery and conquest. These things happened.

As your church has now been cleaning up its books and rituals, that is very good, but it missed this one. Who knows if this book or writings had a more prominent place in doctrine in previous times.

Kathleen, I’m sorry…but I think you are mistaken about the book. You were mistaken about the title, and there is NO way that you could have called SLC church headquarters and had them NOT know about “The Pearl of Great Price.”

That would be EXACTLY like calling the Vatican and having them NOT know about the Book of Tobias. Whatever book it was you got that had those quotes, using THAT terminology (‘whoredaughters’) it was not in a Deseret Book store, or if it was, it was ‘planted’ there.(unlikely, but I HAVE seen it happen–I walked into a “Seagull” bookstore a few years ago and found five copies of “The Godmakers” on one of the shelves. When I pointed it out to the owner, I thought she’d go ballistic. Of course she ‘pulled’ it…because that is NOT a book we would sell! Those copies were planted by a local preacher who thought he was doing the local Mormons a favor) or the quotes you read need to be put in context—something else explains this, because the quotes Rebecca gave us are over 100 years old. Any such quotes that are newer than that do NOT come from any official LDS source, and frankly, there isn’t anything like that during my own life time.

Is it so horrific an idea for you to think that you were, y’know, simply mistaken? Because you are. Many of the things that you claim we believe are not correct, and have obviously been gleaned from the same people who DO use ‘whoredaughters’ in relation to Catholics.

to be cont…

 

[dianaiad]

cont…

As for harlots or whores…in this region, we have highly vocal/visual souls who still hang on to the early 1800 to mid mindset…harlot or whore…the JW’s, the 7th Day…bigotry sometimes dies hard here and we have our share. To me the words mean the same…I used them. But the sentiment is the same to me.

The meaning IS the same; I’m not arguing about that one at all. The intent is the same as is the meaning. However, you specifically wrote ‘whoredaughters’ and attributed that to the book you claimed was “The Pearl of Great Price.”

I happen to believe you…the book you got used that term. It’s a term that would stick in the mind; it’s memorable. It’s also not, actually, a “word.” That is, it’s not a term that would be automatically used as a synonym for “daughter of whores,” or even “whore’s daughters.” It’s archaic and a little odd.

The reason I am ‘fixated’ on that specific term is because…well, linguistics, rhetorics and English are what I do for a living: identifying terms and how they are used. No modern-day English speaker would simply come up with it in the place of wording that was actually used by early LDS leaders…especially since the wording THEY used would be phrases that would make more grammatical sense to modern day ears.

However, It IS a term that, once seen, would ‘stick’ in the memory for the very reason that it is unusual. “Whoredaughters” is more *poetic *than "Whore’s daughters,’ or "daughters of whores. "

But that very term IS used by ‘counter-cult’ evangilistic fundamentalist Christians in their diatribes against Catholicism. “Endtime.net” throws the term around like it was candy on a parade route. Ronathan Forum (…a self described “Romanian white nationalist” group, uses it—a few others. Each source for this term is nastier than the last one. The CoJCoLDS, however, does NOT use that specific word. It seems to be a rather specific term, and currently used by some very nasty people.

What I have figured out from this, if your tale is precisely as you have told it, that you got hold of some very nasty anti-Mormon/anti-Catholic literature from one of these very extremist groups, and the language burned in your brain. You MIGHT have gotten it from a Deseret Book store, but I doubt it. You got it from somewhere, though, and mixed the language up.

The point is, you have never read a stand alone book written by any LDS author with that sort of language in it. You especially have never read one that used the term “whoredaughters.”

One more thing…if you DID get a book from Deseret, and went back two weeks later, there would have been a record of any book that had been ‘pulled.’ The clerks would have remembered it, and SLC would certainly have known about it.

You are either lying or mistaken. I THINK it is simply that you are mistaken. It happens.

However, we are not responsible for your errors.

Sorry the onus is on your church for its shady ‘theology’ and its stand against my faith and church.If the Mormon church considers itself truly Christian, it is about time to stop being so self-righteous and start recognizing the truth that we have. We are all equal before the eyes of God.

We are not ashamed of our theology, Kathleen, any more than you should be of yours. We believe what we believe. Nor are WE saying that all are not equal in the sight of God. That, quite frankly, would be you guys.

I say welcome, Mormon Church, to the greater Christian community!

Thank you…we are members of the 'greater Christian community…" and we aren’t attempting to throw YOU out.

Maybe, Dianaid, there will be another thread we can exchange more amiably. God bless you and your loved ones. Merry Christmas.

I hope you also have a lovely and a Merry Christmas, Kathleen…

…though if you don’t think I’ve been amiable and as kind as I can be under the circumstances (put yourself in my shoes for a moment; you were saying some VERY unkind …and erronious…things about my church, after all…) then stick around. I’m actually being very amiable.

Just ask Rebecca.

:christmastree1:

 

[dianaiad]

I wrote:
"dianaiad:

Ok, so you believe because you have read the scriptures, have been taught by those you trust, and have put the principles of what you read into your life and seen the results.

Did I miss something?

Diana, being serious.

To which you responded:

Dianaiad:

How does one actually have a meaningful coversation with you? In order to avoid my question concerning the importance of the "burning in the heart’ to the Mormon faith you instead asked me for the basis of my belief in Jesus Christ. I answered you in fairly great detail and your response is basically “so what?”.

Is it the fact that my faith is based upon actual evidence of authenticity while yours is based upon doctines found nowhere in the historical Church, golden plates that have mysteriously disappeared, civilizations for which there is absolutely no evidence, the claims of a man and a feeling in your heart?

Did I miss something?

Yes, evidently you did miss something; that is, you missed what I wrote.

I summarized what I thought your words boiled down to, and repeated them to let you know what I understood from what you were saying. In teaching parlance, it’s called 'checking for understanding."

I am deadly serious in this, and not being even slightly flippant. Did I get what you were attempting to say correctly, or did I miss something?

Diana