Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[dianaiad]

I’m glad we finally agree on, at least, one issue.

Anna

DO we?

Then why are you insisting that we still (or in fact, EVER DID) believe in ideas that the church has insisted was wrong for over a century and a half?

Y’know, we can’t win with you people.

Sometimes I get the impression that none of you really want to know what Mormons actually believe. All you want to do is invent the worst possible set of beliefs you can come up with so that you can be shocked and upset; even if you have to make things up, or do something like THIS—attacking the church for being a bunch of anti-Catholic bigots, and use for prooftexts quotes that are not only a century and a half old, but quotes that were disavowed by the church as incorrect and wrong as soon as they were made.

It’s like insisting that the Catholics are all vegetarians, and using Albegensian texts to prove it.

 

[Xavierlives]

Actually, a Mormon can do anything he wants to. A “GOOD” Mormon, however, would sit down to bacon and eggs with a cup of Pero.

Actually, you could sit down to a cup of Joe with a doctor’s note. Personally, I drink coffee because it has theophylline. Strangely, I am allergic to the synthetic version of the same, so I get my dosage through my cup of joe. If I were Mormon, I could keep on drinking! Alas, I can drink it without being a Mormon and don’t need a note.

 

[RebeccaJ]

DO we?

Then why are you insisting that we still (or in fact, EVER DID) believe in ideas that the church has insisted was wrong for over a century and a half?

Y’know, we can’t win with you people.

Sometimes I get the impression that none of you really want to know what Mormons actually believe. All you want to do is invent the worst possible set of beliefs you can come up with so that you can be shocked and upset; even if you have to make things up, or do something like THIS—attacking the church for being a bunch of anti-Catholic bigots, and use for prooftexts quotes that are not only a century and a half old, but quotes that were disavowed by the church as incorrect and wrong as soon as they were made.

It’s like insisting that the Catholics are all vegetarians, and using Albegensian texts to prove it.

Many of us know what mormons believe, as we were once mormons. I believe I have already stated more than once I was taught these things that you claim no one ever believed. Disingenuous at best, as I’m pretty sure when people taught me these sort of things they believed them.

When your late prophets and apostles taught them, it’s a good bet they believed what they were teaching. When McConkie put it in his “Mormon Doctrine” in 1966, probably yes, he believed what he published. When Talmage published his anti-Catholic “The Great Apostasy” in 1906, yep, he believed it. (Deseret Book continues to publish both these books.)

Maybe you should define “we”…since it doesn’t seem to include your church leaders.

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, you could sit down to a cup of Joe with a doctor’s note. Personally, I drink coffee because it has theophylline. Strangely, I am allergic to the synthetic version of the same, so I get my dosage through my cup of joe. If I were Mormon, I could keep on drinking! Alas, I can drink it without being a Mormon and don’t need a note.

Well, good for you.

You are right, though; if the doctor says to drink coffee, you drink coffee. My cousin drank it for a couple of years for her migraines, until the stress in her life eased up enough that she no longer needed it.

 

[dianaiad]

Many of us know what mormons believe, as we were once mormons. I believe I have already stated more than once I was taught these things that you claim no one ever believed. Disingenuous at best, as I’m pretty sure when people taught me these sort of things they believed them.

…and if they had tried to publish them, or what they believed was brought to the attention of the church leaders, they would have been corrected, and rather sharply; just as McConkie was.

When your late prophets and apostles taught them, it’s a good bet they believed what they were teaching. When McConkie put it in his “Mormon Doctrine” in 1966, probably yes, he believed what he published. When Talmage published his anti-Catholic “The Great Apostasy” in 1906, yep, he believed it. (Deseret Book continues to publish both these books.)

And in both cases, the church made them FIX it. You keep forgetting to mention that.

Maybe you should define “we”…since it doesn’t seem to include your church leaders.

Perhaps you need to define ‘we,’ since you seem to EXCLUDE the church leaders, who are the ones who told McConkie to KNOCK IT OFF, and to change his "Mormon Doctrine’ to reflect what Mormon Doctrine actually IS on this issue.

 

[vickimonica]

Quick question to whoever can answer this - Why do mormons cross their arms/fold their arms when they pray?

 

[vickimonica]

Many of us know what mormons believe, as we were once mormons. I believe I have already stated more than once I was taught these things that you claim no one ever believed. Disingenuous at best, as I’m pretty sure when people taught me these sort of things they believed them.

When your late prophets and apostles taught them, it’s a good bet they believed what they were teaching. When McConkie put it in his “Mormon Doctrine” in 1966, probably yes, he believed what he published. When Talmage published his anti-Catholic “The Great Apostasy” in 1906, yep, he believed it. (Deseret Book continues to publish both these books.)

Maybe you should define “we”…since it doesn’t seem to include your church leaders.

 

[Xavierlives]

Quick question to whoever can answer this - Why do mormons cross their arms/fold their arms when they pray?

Lol… I had some missionaries in my house on Saturday and I didn’t notice. But then, I had my eyes closed.

 

[vickimonica]

Right on Rebecca. I was a mormon (sorry to say) for 22 years. I actually crack up when I read the posts of mormons on here denying what we WERE in fact TAUGHT/BRAINWASHED as mormons. They know they are denying what they were taught -to save face on here. I am actually still best friends w/ a mormon, and when I told her the amount of time some of the mormons spent on here “defending their faith” she told me that their bishop would in fact NOT approve because this is not “Faith promoting”… No “temple reccomemend” for them if their bishop finds out!!!

 

[RebeccaJ]

…and if they had tried to publish them, or what they believed was brought to the attention of the church leaders, they would have been corrected, and rather sharply; just as McConkie was.

And in both cases, the church made them FIX it. You keep forgetting to mention that.

Perhaps you need to define ‘we,’ since you seem to EXCLUDE the church leaders, who are the ones who told McConkie to KNOCK IT OFF, and to change his "Mormon Doctrine’ to reflect what Mormon Doctrine actually IS on this issue.

Diana, I am not excluding anyone. I know perfectly well the decade of 1971-1980 was a time of a purposeful implemented change, where anything not culturally PC within mormonism was changed. Everything you have that is not bigoted is from 1965 on, at the earliest. A shift, no doubt, and a good one. But you cannot make a blanket statement that no mormon ever taught or believed the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon. It flies in the face of your own history, the teachings of your church leaders, and is revisionist.

PS: Talmage’s anti-Catholic book has not been changed. The majority of what zerinus comes up with re:Catholicism is straight-up Talmage.

 

[dianaiad]

Quick question to whoever can answer this - Why do mormons cross their arms/fold their arms when they pray?

That’s a good question. I don’t know if there is an ‘official’ answer, but I was always told to do this as it shows respect and humility; a quiet acceptance of any answer. It’s tradition. Some people genuflect, some put their hands together,

Why do Catholics put their hands together/fold them when they pray? Why do some people raise their faces and hands to the sky?

I’ve never actually thought about it, y’know? I just do it…though not every time I pray. sometimes it’s just my hands folded in my lap. Sometimes–I have both hands on the steering wheel, or I’m holding my kid–

hmnn.

I really haven’t ever thought about it. It never seemed to be all that intrinsic to the idea of prayer, y’know?

diana

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, I am not excluding anyone. I know perfectly well the decade of 1971-1980 was a time of a purposeful implemented change, where anything not culturally PC within mormonism was changed. Everything you have that is not bigoted is from 1965 on, at the earliest. A shift, no doubt, and a good one. But you cannot make a blanket statement that no mormon ever taught or believed the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon. It flies in the face of your own history, the teachings of your church leaders, and is revisionist.

PS: Talmage’s anti-Catholic book has not been changed. The majority of what zerinus comes up with re:Catholicism is straight-up Talmage.

We can’t exactly ask Talmage to change what he wrote, can we? However, the church certainly yelled hard at Pratt for what HE said about it.

 

[dianaiad]

Right on Rebecca. I was a mormon (sorry to say) for 22 years. I actually crack up when I read the posts of mormons on here denying what we WERE in fact TAUGHT/BRAINWASHED as mormons. They know they are denying what they were taught -to save face on here. I am actually still best friends w/ a mormon, and when I told her the amount of time some of the mormons spent on here “defending their faith” she told me that their bishop would in fact NOT approve because this is not “Faith promoting”… No “temple reccomemend” for them if their bishop finds out!!!

You were a Mormon for 22 years?

then wny don’t you know why Mormons fold their arms when they pray?

As to what your friend says about my activity here, she certainly is entitled to her opinion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Right on Rebecca. I was a mormon (sorry to say) for 22 years. I actually crack up when I read the posts of mormons on here denying what we WERE in fact TAUGHT/BRAINWASHED as mormons. They know they are denying what they were taught -to save face on here. I am actually still best friends w/ a mormon, and when I told her the amount of time some of the mormons spent on here “defending their faith” she told me that their bishop would in fact NOT approve because this is not “Faith promoting”… No “temple reccomemend” for them if their bishop finds out!!!

I believe ParkerD has said he is/was a bishop.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We can’t exactly ask Talmage to change what he wrote, can we? However, the church certainly yelled hard at Pratt for what HE said about it.

It is published by a company that is owned by your First Presidency. In a nutshell, they can do whatever the hell they like with this book…including pulling it off the shelves.

No one ever yelled at Pratt for what he said about Catholics…he did butt heads with Young over other issues. This was not one of them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You were a Mormon for 22 years?

then wny don’t you know why Mormons fold their arms when they pray?

As to what your friend says about my activity here, she certainly is entitled to her opinion.

Didn’t you say you are a lifelong mormon and you don’t know either?

lol. We had a whole thread on this once…the best any one could come up with is that it is taught to mormon children when they are really, really young as an endeavor towards holding wiggly kids still and quiet, and it just sticks for life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m glad we finally agree on, at least, one issue.

Anna

It is interesting how LDS today are so easily throwing Orson Pratt and/or Brigham Young under the bus.

 

[dianaiad]

It is published by a company that is owned by your First Presidency. In a nutshell, they can do whatever the hell they like with this book…including pulling it off the shelves.

They could, but that would be dishonest. Talmage wrote what he wrote. He’s also dead; that book is rather old, y’know. You know what would be said of us if we took a book written by someone else and altered it. Pratt was criticized for his rhetoric while he was alive. McConkie was criticized for his while he could still fix it.

You may wonder about it, but I think some intellectual honesty is a good thing.

one ever yelled at Pratt for what he said about Catholics…he did butt heads with Young over other issues. This was not one of them.

Yes, actually, it was–and I posted the quote to prove it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

They could, but that would be dishonest. Talmage wrote what he wrote. He’s also dead; that book is rather old, y’know. You know what would be said of us if we took a book written by someone else and altered it. Pratt was criticized for his rhetoric while he was alive. McConkie was criticized for his while he could still fix it.

You may wonder about it, but I think some intellectual honesty is a good thing.

some

Yes, actually, it was–and I posted the quote to prove it.

I didn’t see your quote…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, actually, it was–and I posted the quote to prove it.

this one…

“The Seer [and other writings by Pratt] contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed.”

You should put it in context. Pratt and Young were in large disagreement over a couple of decades regarding Young’s teachings of Adam-God, God was once a man and polygamy. Young did not like what Pratt had to say about Adam not being God, and that God was never a man, and most especially what he had to say about Sarah and her marital infidelity under the doctrine named “plural marriage”.

So pick a side Diana…which one are you going with?