Mormon Apostasy

[sterryfamily]

1. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to appoint his successor.
2. He appointed his successor - his son, Joseph III
3. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to build “The new and everlasting Zion” in Missouri.
4. Brigham Young and his followers vote to reject Joseph Smith III as prophet and instead elect (surpise, surprise) Brigham Young as prophet.
5. They then leave for Salt Lake City.

I think it’s funny that LDS accuse the Catholic Church of having fallen into complete apostasy - although they can’t back the claim up with any history or even a vague idea of when or where it happened - and yet they have this obvious Mormon Apostasy. Was God confused about Missouri and Joseph Smith’s successor? Or was He just kidding?

 

[Chris-WA]

1. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to appoint his successor.
2. He appointed his successor - his son, Joseph III
3. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to build “The new and everlasting Zion” in Missouri.
4. Brigham Young and his followers vote to reject Joseph Smith III as prophet and instead elect (surpise, surprise) Brigham Young as prophet.
5. They then leave for Salt Lake City.

I think it’s funny that LDS accuse the Catholic Church of having fallen into complete apostasy - although they can’t back the claim up with any history or even a vague idea of when or where it happened - and yet they have this obvious Mormon Apostasy. Was God confused about Missouri and Joseph Smith’s successor? Or was He just kidding?

The apostacy theory is the only way they can justify the existence of Mormonism.

What I find the most outlandish is how they can believe the Apostles didn’t take measures to ensure the church would continue after they were gone. How rediculous.

 

[Lehl]

The apostacy theory is the only way they can justify the existence of Mormonism.

What I find the most outlandish is how they can believe the Apostles didn’t take measures to ensure the church would continue after they were gone. How rediculous.

There was NO apostasy even by the Mormons’ own definition! They claim the apostasy occured when all the apostles died. The problem is, is that it is their doctrine that John the Apostle is STILL HERE “tarrying” in the flesh. Therefore, not all the apostles are gone, are they?

 

[Kristine1957]

Looks like to me the Mormon church had apostasy in thier church right from the very start. Joseph Smith III had some church members and then Brigham Young had the others. Looks like a split/apostasy to me…

 

[Allweather]

There was NO apostasy even by the Mormons’ own definition! They claim the apostasy occured when all the apostles died. The problem is, is that it is their doctrine that John the Apostle is STILL HERE “tarrying” in the flesh. Therefore, not all the apostles are gone, are they?

According to Zerinus several months ago, and probably Alma147 also, even though John is still alive, there was nevertheless an apostasy, because the Church became so, so wicked that the divine authority was REMOVED by God.

Either way, it is the oddest speculation, and impossible to prove. Maybe that works in the Mormons’ favor. It can’t be proved, but is “known” in the burning bosom, where all truth resides.

 

[Kristine1957]

There was NO apostasy even by the Mormons’ own definition! They claim the apostasy occured when all the apostles died. The problem is, is that it is their doctrine that John the Apostle is STILL HERE “tarrying” in the flesh. Therefore, not all the apostles are gone, are they?

So forgive me but then where is John the Apostle if he isnt dead?

 

[Lehl]

1. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to appoint his successor.
2. He appointed his successor - his son, Joseph III
3. God gave divine revelation to the prophet, Joseph Smith that he was to build “The new and everlasting Zion” in Missouri.
4. Brigham Young and his followers vote to reject Joseph Smith III as prophet and instead elect (surpise, surprise) Brigham Young as prophet.
5. They then leave for Salt Lake City.

I think it’s funny that LDS accuse the Catholic Church of having fallen into complete apostasy - although they can’t back the claim up with any history or even a vague idea of when or where it happened - and yet they have this obvious Mormon Apostasy. Was God confused about Missouri and Joseph Smith’s successor? Or was He just kidding?

Actually, no–Joseph Smith didn’t appoint his son. Apparently, he’d made mention of it but there doesn’t appear to be any proof.

It does appear that Sidney Rigdon had a fair claim on the “prophethood”, but Brigham Young essentially stole it away from him. Sidney Rigdon outranked Brigham Young.

The Church of Jesus Christ maintains the proceedings which decided Brigham Young to lead the church were a violation of proper proceedings of the church

Read here on the Mormon Succession Crisis:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis

There were several permanent schisms as a result of this Crisis.

I absolutely think it is obvious that the Mormons had a huge apostasy. They’re so worked up about the succession from Peter to Linus/Cletus/Clement as proof of the so-called “Great Apostasy” when it is perfectly clear that they are worried about an imaginary splinter in our eye when they truly have a beam in theirs.

 

[Lehl]

So forgive me but then where is John the Apostle if he isnt dead?

John the Apostle is “tarrying” in the flesh. Joseph Smith inquired of his magic rocks which told him so.

Doctrine and Covenants, section 7

**Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet **and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.
1–3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my abeloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt atarry until I come in my bglory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring asouls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my bkingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

 

[Allweather]

It does appear that Sidney Rigdon had a fair claim on the “prophethood”, but Brigham Young essentially stole it away from him. Sidney Rigdon outranked Brigham Young.

Rigdon is said to have sustained a head injury during one of Joseph Jr’s tar-and-featherings, and was mentally unbalanced as a result. As time went by, the prophet lost confidence in Rigdon, but that didn’t stop Rigdon from being selected as Jr’s running-mate in the 1844 Presidential election. Apparently the selection process was an in-house LDS thing.

Rigdon moved to Pittsburgh to manage the campaign, of which a very large part was the mobilization of the missionaries as agents of the campaign. After 27 June that year, when Jr and Hyrum were killed, Rigdon returned hastily to LDS HQ and offered his services, which were rejected by the apostles. Rigdon then formed a challenge to the leadership, was excommunicated, and left with some members to form a new church. He floundered around with this new church and that new church, before dying in a state of mental dishevelment in 1876, in Friendship, NY.

The succession crises that enveloped the LDS people after June of 1844 certainly stand in stark contrast to the comparatively orderly way in which the Catholic Church proceeded after Jesus’ crucifixion, don’t they? There were no challenges to Apostolic succession. Peter was acknowledged from the beginning as the leader. Yes, compared to the Christian Church of the first century, the Mormons in the mid-1840s were a circus.

 

[VWcrazy]

The Mormon Church fell into Apostasy the moment Joseph Smith started to fabricate The Book of Mormon.

Mormonism - Scientology for an earlier century.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I’m still trying to get my head around some LDS terminology. Are “gospel keys” the same thing as “priesthood authority”?

 

[Allweather]

I’m still trying to get my head around some LDS terminology. Are “gospel keys” the same thing as “priesthood authority”?

Since no Mormon has undertaken to answer this yet, let me stab at it. According to my Encyclopedia of Mormonism there are many types of keys, though none are referred to specifically as “gospel keys.”

Among these are Keys of the Kingdom, Keys of the Ministering of Angels, Keys of Salvation, Keys of the Priesthood, and whatnot.

All of the “scriptural” citations given in the Encyclopedia are in Mormon “modern scriptures” such as D&C, etc. No Biblical references are cited.

One other reference you might consult is McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine which has articles on each of the different types of keys. However, one thing I’ve noticed about Mormon Doctrine is that Mormons will disavow it when it suits their purposes of denial, although they use it heavily as a source. For instance, that book is sourced and referenced in the article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism under the heading of Keys of the Priesthood, and probably is referenced in many other articles as well.

 

[Lehl]

However, one thing I’ve noticed about Mormon Doctrine is that Mormons will disavow it when it suits their purposes of denial, although they use it heavily as a source.

Dontcha love Mormon apologetics?

This is also true of the Journal of Discourses which they will cite all day and night when it supports their position, but instantly disavow it when it does not.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Since no Mormon has undertaken to answer this yet, let me stab at it. According to my Encyclopedia of Mormonism there are many types of keys, though none are referred to specifically as “gospel keys.”

Among these are Keys of the Kingdom, Keys of the Ministering of Angels, Keys of Salvation, Keys of the Priesthood, and whatnot.

All of the “scriptural” citations given in the Encyclopedia are in Mormon “modern scriptures” such as D&C, etc. No Biblical references are cited.

One other reference you might consult is McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine which has articles on each of the different types of keys. However, one thing I’ve noticed about Mormon Doctrine is that Mormons will disavow it when it suits their purposes of denial, although they use it heavily as a source. For instance, that book is sourced and referenced in the article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism under the heading of Keys of the Priesthood, and probably is referenced in many other articles as well.

OK, and forgive me if I am going astray here, but, it would seem that there is no valid scriptural reference for their doctrine? So it is all about what Bruce McConkie said? If so, is there any reason to put anyone’s faith in HIM (i.e. Bruce McConkie) ? And if so, why? Is Bruce McConkie a GOD? And if not, why should any of us pay attention to anything he says? (Of course, if Bruce McConkie IS a God, then those persons who believe so should provide the proof!)

 

[Allweather]

OK, and forgive me if I am going astray here, but, it would seem that there is no valid scriptural reference for their doctrine? So it is all about what Bruce McConkie said? If so, is there any reason to put anyone’s faith in HIM (i.e. Bruce McConkie) ? And if so, why? Is Bruce McConkie a GOD? And if not, why should any of us pay attention to anything he says? (Of course, if Bruce McConkie IS a God, then those persons who believe so should provide the proof!)

I think Mr. McConkie has been dead and gone for several years now, and I hope I’m not exaggerating the story of his demise. If Mormonism is true, maybe he is a god by now…

As for the keys, Joseph Smith, Jr. supposedly was given all the keys. Since there are so many of them, they must be hard to keep track of.

There is at least one New Testament reference to keys. In Matthew 16, where Jesus proclaims Peter to be the Rock upon which He would establish His Church. In verse 19, Jesus tells Peter: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Since this is a foundational reference for the authority of the Catholic Church, I suppose it makes sense that Jr would have latched onto it, and elaborated upon it, as a means of “establishing” his own authority over the Mormons.

 

[Lehl]

I think Mr. McConkie has been dead and gone for several years now, and I hope I’m not exaggerating the story of his demise. If Mormonism is true, maybe he is a god by now…

Have you read what McConkie published in his first edition about the Catholic Church?

As for the keys, Joseph Smith, Jr. supposedly was given all the keys. Since there are so many of them, they must be hard to keep track of.

He definetly needed a big 'ol key ring. Although I think it’s clear he must have lost those keys anyway when he was killed since he clearly didn’t pass them onto Brigham Young.

 

[Allweather]

Have you read what McConkie published in his first edition about the Catholic Church?

No, my edition is the “cleansed” one, but it is bad enough.

He definetly needed a big 'ol key ring. Although I think it’s clear he must have lost those keys anyway when he was killed since he clearly didn’t pass them onto Brigham Young.

I wonder if the western LDS branch would have survived without the likes of Brigham Young. The man must’ve been a fantastic leader. Of course, having lots of people willing to do what they’re told without much question can help a man be a good leader.

 

[clgagnon]

I live just a couple miles south of the ‘new and everlasting zion’

The only thing left are the four cornerstones. (they do have nice new restrooms for all the tour busses with Utah plates)

The place is well landscaped and if you are ever in the vacinity of what was called New West about 7 miles west of Kingston Missouri I would encourage a visit for a glimpse of U.S. History.

It is my understanding that the area had several thousand residents in the mid 1800’s. Apparently the mormans were a bit too different than the locals at the time and as one old timer put it “it was open season on Mormans”. The area is strictly rural farmland now. They have a meeting hall accross the street and the next nearest neighbor is a mile or more up the road. The ‘everlasting zion’ apparently moved to Salt Lake City when the survivors did.

You still have to admire the conviction of the young men in their white shirts and ties going door to door on those hot summer days.

Peace in The Risen Lord.

Chrisg

My experience is that they are very nice people (I have a neighbor who is Morman)

 

[Allweather]

I saw a program on BYU Channel about that place. Very interesting.

Are there very many Mormons living in that area today?

 

[ApostateRLDS]

The place is well landscaped and if you are ever in the vacinity of what was called New West about 7 miles west of Kingston Missouri I would encourage a visit for a glimpse of U.S. History

You mean ‘Far West’ in Caldwell County, don’t you? I wasn’t aware that was there was another ‘New Zion’ in Missouri besides Independence. You also need to come down to Clay County and take a look at the Liberty Jail(even though you’ll get the LDS version of history). It was also in Clay County where the Sheriff warned Joseph Smith that he and his followers would be committing treason if Zion’s Camp(Smith’s expedition to retake Jackson County by force) if they entered Jackson County armed as they were…