Mormon Apostle deplores abortion - almost...

[why_me]

The data I was referring to was not based on polls. It was based on actual people who got abortions.

And in any case, my point was that the official Catholic positions on reproductive issues are so “black-and-white,” and come down from leaders who are so far removed from “reproductive issues,” that the laity generally doesn’t take them seriously. (Obviously, many do take it seriously, but Catholics in the USA tend to get abortions at the same rate as the general population.)

On the other hand, the official Mormon position allows for some grey areas, but this ambiguity does not, apparently, cause Mormons to go procure abortions in droves. We apparently take our restrictions about abortion much more seriously, even with the wiggle room.

And yet, I have noticed that many Catholics on this board get worked up into a frenzy about the Mormon position on abortion, because the “moral theology” is not correct (in their opinion). Even if this is true, I would personally rather associate with a group that is more worried about actually not getting abortions than getting their moral theology all tied up in a bow.

You have brought up some good points. But you see, for catholics, because all truth is contained in the catechism, no wiggle room is allowed. And even though many catholics do get abortions, far more than the lds do, it does not matter at all to some of the catholics on this forum. What seems to matter is the letter of the ‘law’ and not the actual outcome.

All issues should be debated and abortion is one of those issues. The mormons and the catholics share much in common on moral issues. In fact, both groups can work well together over many social issues. But, if all ‘truth’ is already contained in the catechism, other ‘truths’ may not be considered. And hence, the difference between the lds church and the catholic church. (as I stated in my ‘Mormon Doctrine in a Nutshell’ thread)

 

[Prince_Hal]

But you are missing my central concern with Brother Nelson’s article. On the one hand he can say:

"Life is precious! No one can cuddle an innocent infant, look into those beautiful eyes, feel the little fingers, and kiss that baby’s cheek without a deepening reverence for life and for our Creator.’

and,

“Terminating the life of a developing baby involves two individuals with separate bodies, brains, and hearts. A woman’s choice for her own body does not include the right to deprive her baby of life—and a lifetime of choices that her child would make.”

But on the other that it is not a sin (even if it is very rare) under 4 circumstances to terminate the child’s life.

Which way does Brother Nelson want it ?

John the Baptist jumped in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came to her pregnant with Jesus. “Ensoulment” as bdawg discusses had obviously happened. Mormonism cannot hide behind the fact they do not have a doctrine on ensoulment. And if they do not, surely the less risky road should be taken.

Obviously Bro. Nelson doesn’t want abortion banned in the USA. Who would then perform the “mercy killings” in the 4 scenarios Bro. Nelson mentions. Perhaps he will roll up his sleeves and disect a living child in order to show his god’s compassion to the mother ?

I applaud Mormonism for speaking out against abortion, but there is one further step to take - to describe it as a sin in all circumstances. But that would be tantamount to admitting that “the Prophets” got it wrong. From those cracks, the Mormon temples would metaphorically crumble.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[why_me]

But you are missing my central concern with Brother Nelson’s article. On the one hand he can say:

"Life is precious! No one can cuddle an innocent infant, look into those beautiful eyes, feel the little fingers, and kiss that baby’s cheek without a deepening reverence for life and for our Creator.’

and,

“Terminating the life of a developing baby involves two individuals with separate bodies, brains, and hearts. A woman’s choice for her own body does not include the right to deprive her baby of life—and a lifetime of choices that her child would make.”

But on the other that it is not a sin (even if it is very rare) under 4 circumstances to terminate the child’s life.

Which way does Brother Nelson want it ?

John the Baptist jumped in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came to her pregnant with Jesus. “Ensoulment” as bdawg discusses had obviously happened. Mormonism cannot hide behind the fact they do not have a doctrine on ensoulment. And if they do not, surely the less risky road should be taken.

Obviously Bro. Nelson doesn’t want abortion banned in the USA. Who would then perform the “mercy killings” in the 4 scenarios Bro. Nelson mentions. Perhaps he will roll up his sleeves and disect a living child in order to show his god’s compassion to the mother ?
Hal.

He left the decision up to the woman in special circumstances. But he did not encourage abortion but claimed that it is not a sin if the abortion occurs within those defined circumstances. And I can see his point over the issue. But ideally, abortion should not occur.

To understand this issue we need to look at the emotional state of the woman, if the baby was conceived in rape, or incest. Or if by giving birth, the woman’s life would be threatened. It is not an easy situation to be in. And it is not an easy one for the baby when birth occurs. Most women would certainly not want to raise the child born in rape or incest. The terrible memory would be too much to bear.

I can see the mormon position as the most humane in this case.

I can put the question this way: if the person involved is a relative, ie, a daughter or a niece, would you wish your child or niece to sacrifice her life for the unborn baby? Likewise for the other scenerios?

 

[tundramom]

He left the decision up to the woman in special circumstances. But he did not encourage abortion but claimed that it is not a sin if the abortion occurs within those defined circumstances. And I can see his point over the issue. But ideally, abortion should not occur.

To understand this issue we need to look at the emotional state of the woman, if the baby was conceived in rape, or incest. Or if by giving birth, the woman’s life would be threatened. It is not an easy situation to be in. And it is not an easy one for the baby when birth occurs. Most women would certainly not want to raise the child born in rape or incest. The terrible memory would be too much to bear.

I can see the mormon position as the most humane in this case.

I can put the question this way: if the person involved is a relative, ie, a daughter or a niece, would you wish your child or niece to sacrifice her life for the unborn baby? Likewise for the other scenerios?

This is just a horrible argument why me. I don’t even know how to get past your mormon rhetoric and bias.

I am a woman. I was a mormon when, at 16, abortion was recommended for me because I had received all my immunizations during the first month of my pregnancy. Abortion was recommended to me by my Mother, my bishop, my seminary teacher, and my doctor. They used the same arguments that you and your leaders are using.

I went ahead and had that abortion. At 16, I relied on those I thought more wise than myself.

My child was ripped from my womb. My child was torn to pieces and I was handed a glass of juice as if I had donated blood. I sat in an easy chair for an hour afterwards while nurses came by and checked on me to make sure I was ok. My Mom took me out to lunch in SLC and I threw up in the bathroom. I came home and that was the end of that. So they all thought.

I had 10 subsequent miscarriages in the next 4 years. 10.

I finally had my daughter at age 22. I spent 5 months in bed to make sure she didn’t die. I had her by c-section. God blessed me with two other daughters born by c-section as well.

I wasn’t ready mentally to have a child at 16. I wasn’t ready to commit murder either.

I wasn’t ready to become a mother at 22 but God helped me.

Don’t tell me it is “humane” to rip a child from the mother’s womb, hand her a glass of juice, take her temperature and vital signs and send her on her way.

More than 20 years later, I confessed my sin of murder to my Priest. I began working at Birthright and counseling 16 year old girls who found themselves in the same situation I was in. I held the hand of a 15 year old girl while she gave birth to a beautiful down syndrome son vaginally–something I will never experience because of that murder I committed so many years ago-- and watched this same 15 year old girl hand her son over to a couple who will cherish their adopted son for life.

Don’t tell me that Mormonism has it right. God has it right. Thou shalt not murder. Abortion is murder, period.

Praise God for forgiveness and reconcilliation. Thank you, Jesus for dying on that Cross for me so that I could be forgiven… even of murder.

in Christ
Steph

 

[RC_Matt]

Most women would certainly not want to raise the child born in rape or incest. The terrible memory would be too much to bear.

I can see the mormon position as the most humane in this case.

So, the little baby has to be killed? I guess you are just so enraptured with all things Mormon that you can’t see how terribly wrong that is; this is another topic you should discuss with all those Priests, Nuns and Opus Dei folks you hang with.

I personally know someone who was born as the result of a rape, and she is one of the most wonderful people I have ever known. It wasn’t easy; but her Catholic mother did the right thing and raised a remarkable daughter who has been a blessing to her mother, her own children, and everybody whose life she touches.

 

[Jerusha]

The reason why a child conceived as a result of rape or incest can be aborted according to Mormon theology is that the child should suffer as a result of the “sins” of his/her parents. Be better to put the infant out of his/her misery early than to allow him/her to be born.

 

[why_me]

The reason why a child conceived as a result of rape or incest can be aborted according to Mormon theology is that the child should suffer as a result of the “sins” of his/her parents. Be better to put the infant out of his/her misery early than to allow him/her to be born.

As I have said before the mormons have a different conception of existence before this earth. If we were spirit children with god, waiting for our physical bodies, the abortion would not prevent this spirit from receiving a body. And this makes all the difference. There would be another body for this spirit to inhabit.

And I do think that this is why that in special circumstances, abortion would not be a sin in mormon theology. The mormon and the catholic have a different view of preexistence.

 

[why_me]

Praise God for forgiveness and reconcilliation. Thank you, Jesus for dying on that Cross for me so that I could be forgiven… in Christ
Steph

I am very sorry about your experience.

 

[susankndrck35]

This is just a horrible argument why me. I don’t even know how to get past your mormon rhetoric and bias.

I am a woman. I was a mormon when, at 16, abortion was recommended for me because I had received all my immunizations during the first month of my pregnancy. Abortion was recommended to me by my Mother, my bishop, my seminary teacher, and my doctor. They used the same arguments that you and your leaders are using.

I went ahead and had that abortion. At 16, I relied on those I thought more wise than myself.

My child was ripped from my womb. My child was torn to pieces and I was handed a glass of juice as if I had donated blood. I sat in an easy chair for an hour afterwards while nurses came by and checked on me to make sure I was ok. My Mom took me out to lunch in SLC and I threw up in the bathroom. I came home and that was the end of that. So they all thought.

I had 10 subsequent miscarriages in the next 4 years. 10.

I finally had my daughter at age 22. I spent 5 months in bed to make sure she didn’t die. I had her by c-section. God blessed me with two other daughters born by c-section as well.

I wasn’t ready mentally to have a child at 16. I wasn’t ready to commit murder either.

I wasn’t ready to become a mother at 22 but God helped me.

Don’t tell me it is “humane” to rip a child from the mother’s womb, hand her a glass of juice, take her temperature and vital signs and send her on her way.

More than 20 years later, I confessed my sin of murder to my Priest. I began working at Birthright and counseling 16 year old girls who found themselves in the same situation I was in. I held the hand of a 15 year old girl while she gave birth to a beautiful down syndrome son vaginally–something I will never experience because of that murder I committed so many years ago-- and watched this same 15 year old girl hand her son over to a couple who will cherish their adopted son for life.

Don’t tell me that Mormonism has it right. God has it right. Thou shalt not murder. Abortion is murder, period.

Praise God for forgiveness and reconcilliation. Thank you, Jesus for dying on that Cross for me so that I could be forgiven… even of murder.

in Christ
Steph

I am so sorry that you had to endure this.

 

[why_me]

So, the little baby has to be killed? I guess you are just so enraptured with all things Mormon that you can’t see how terribly wrong that is; this is another topic you should discuss with all those Priests, Nuns and Opus Dei folks you hang with.

I am given the possible mormon explanation. Much has to do with the mormon and catholic understanding of creation. For mormons, we are spirit children waiting to get a body to come to earth. But the catholic has a different understanding of creation. There is no preexistence.

 

[Jerusha]

What justification is there for a pre-existence other than to justify human pain and suffering? And be passive about it?

 

[Prince_Hal]

This is just a horrible argument why me. I don’t even know how to get past your mormon rhetoric and bias.

I am a woman. I was a mormon when, at 16, abortion was recommended for me because I had received all my immunizations during the first month of my pregnancy. Abortion was recommended to me by my Mother, my bishop, my seminary teacher, and my doctor. They used the same arguments that you and your leaders are using.

I went ahead and had that abortion. At 16, I relied on those I thought more wise than myself.

My child was ripped from my womb. My child was torn to pieces and I was handed a glass of juice as if I had donated blood. I sat in an easy chair for an hour afterwards while nurses came by and checked on me to make sure I was ok. My Mom took me out to lunch in SLC and I threw up in the bathroom. I came home and that was the end of that. So they all thought.

I had 10 subsequent miscarriages in the next 4 years. 10.

I finally had my daughter at age 22. I spent 5 months in bed to make sure she didn’t die. I had her by c-section. God blessed me with two other daughters born by c-section as well.

I wasn’t ready mentally to have a child at 16. I wasn’t ready to commit murder either.

I wasn’t ready to become a mother at 22 but God helped me.

Don’t tell me it is “humane” to rip a child from the mother’s womb, hand her a glass of juice, take her temperature and vital signs and send her on her way.

More than 20 years later, I confessed my sin of murder to my Priest. I began working at Birthright and counseling 16 year old girls who found themselves in the same situation I was in. I held the hand of a 15 year old girl while she gave birth to a beautiful down syndrome son vaginally–something I will never experience because of that murder I committed so many years ago-- and watched this same 15 year old girl hand her son over to a couple who will cherish their adopted son for life.

Don’t tell me that Mormonism has it right. God has it right. Thou shalt not murder. Abortion is murder, period.

Praise God for forgiveness and reconcilliation. Thank you, Jesus for dying on that Cross for me so that I could be forgiven… even of murder.

in Christ
Steph

God bless you for your witness, which is more powerful than I could ever give. When my mother was pregnant with me, she was told to have an abortion otherwise we both would die. She didn’t, and I didn’t. But she sufferred the scars the rest of her life, but never once regretted it - and neither did I. Only years later did I learn that her mother died in child birth giving birth to my mum.

God bless theem both.

Thank you mum.

Hal.

 

[tundramom]

I am very sorry about your experience.

Then why did you conveniently take the word MURDER out of my post when you quoted me? Give me a break why me.

in Christ
Steph

 

[zaffiroborant]

As I have said before the mormons have a different conception of existence before this earth. If we were spirit children with god, waiting for our physical bodies, the abortion would not prevent this spirit from receiving a body. And this makes all the difference. There would be another body for this spirit to inhabit.

And I do think that this is why that in special circumstances, abortion would not be a sin in mormon theology. The mormon and the catholic have a different view of preexistence.

But what if you’re wrong on this, seems it’s better to error on the side of not killing babies.

 

[Prince_Hal]

But what if you’re wrong on this, seems it’s better to error on the side of not killing babies.

Absolutely.

What I think we have here is a case of LDS members not being willing to criticise LDS leaders. Because, once you believe that they are incorrect on an official doctrine, then the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down. As an LDS member you have to believe that official church doctrine is “infallible”.

So, now they are in a tangle when it comes to abortion. “Why Me” in her reply to Steph showed this very clearly.

But let us not lose sight of this fact: right now proving mormonism false is very much secondary to asking the LDS leadership to stop any allowance for abortion in any circumstances. Even if only 1 child were aborted under the mormon 4 acceptable scenarios, then it is 1 child to many. So, President Monson, elder Nelson, stop it. Change your stance - rule out abortion under all circumstances - please.

Hal.

 

[tundramom]

God bless you for your witness, which is more powerful than I could ever give. When my mother was pregnant with me, she was told to have an abortion otherwise we both would die. She didn’t, and I didn’t. But she sufferred the scars the rest of her life, but never once regretted it - and neither did I. Only years later did I learn that her mother died in child birth giving birth to my mum.

God bless theem both.

Thank you mum.

Hal.

Thanks Hal. I am so happy that your Mom chose LIFE! The alternative is a living hell. The emotional scars are something that no woman would ever choose. Unfortunately, we humans don’t know enough about our bodies to understand what happens when a life is murdered in the womb. It is horrendous at best.

in Christ
Steph

 

[tundramom]

But let us not lose sight of this fact: right now proving mormonism false is very much secondary to asking the LDS leadership to stop any allowance for abortion in any circumstances. Even if only 1 child were aborted under the mormon 4 acceptable scenarios, then it is 1 child to many. So, President Monson, elder Nelson, stop it. Change your stance - rule out abortion under all circumstances - please.

Hal.

AMEN!!

 

[RC_Matt]

I am given the possible mormon explanation. Much has to do with the mormon and catholic understanding of creation. For mormons, we are spirit children waiting to get a body to come to earth. But the catholic has a different understanding of creation. There is no preexistence.

Dude, this is what you said:

*“Most women would certainly not want to raise the child born in rape or incest. The terrible memory would be too much to bear.

I can see the mormon position as the most humane in this case.”*

There is so much wrong with that comment that it’s pointless to even dissect it. Suffice it to say that if this is what you believe, and you really do indeed assist as a Lector at Mass, you are committing blasphemy.

 

[BDawg]

But what if you’re wrong on this, seems it’s better to error on the side of not killing babies.

Nobody seems to have responded to my original point about God commanding the Israelites to wipe out whole populations, including children and pregnant women. I just can’t see how anyone can be so adamant that there can NEVER be any legitimate reason to abort an embryo, when God COMMANDED people to wipe out whole populations.

Your “err on the side of not killing innocents” advice is probably great advice, almost all the time. Personally, I would be EXTREMELY hesitant to counsel anyone to have an abortion. I would just not want to completely shut the door on more extreme cases.

And as I also pointed out, even Catholics don’t shut the door on the most extreme cases, like ectopic pregnancies. They just refuse to call it an “abortion.”

So the fact is that Catholics have a few “grey areas” in the “Thou Shalt Not Kill” department, as well. So far, none of the Catholics posting here have tried to face them squarely. It’s much easier to vilify the Mormons for having grey areas.

 

[RC_Matt]

Nobody seems to have responded to my original point about God commanding the Israelites to wipe out whole populations, including children and pregnant women. I just can’t see how anyone can be so adamant that there can NEVER be any legitimate reason to abort an embryo, when God COMMANDED people to wipe out whole populations.

The Old Testament was fulfilled by Christ. Jesus mediated a New Covenant between man and God and it is that New Covenant in Christ to which we adhere as Christians.