Mormon apostle's racist letter to George Romney

[Cowboy_Pete]

You really shouldn’t make assumptions about what I do and don’t know.

I will continue to assume that someone is being honest with me until they prove otherwise. If you knew that stuff came from the Catholic church, then it was disingenuous for you to take regurgitations of millenia-old theories by some early LDS leaders, and impute those dank theories to the LDS church.

I’ve already responded to your absurd use of “teachings” hearsay as a credible source.

Some early church members and leaders were racist; others, such as Joseph Smith, were as enlightened for their time as anyone.

 

[followingtheway]

I will continue to assume that someone is being honest with me until they prove otherwise. If you knew that stuff came from the Catholic church

Not the from who founder our Church. -____-

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Not the from who founder our Church. -____-

Oh brother.

You know, I didn’t come here to get into this sort of inane “my church is better than your church” nonsense. Fortunately I’m old enough to not judge your church by your behavior here.

 

[followingtheway]

sort of inane “my church is better than your church” nonsense.

This has nothing to do with that. What I said was the person who founded your Church made RACIST STATEMENTS. You in turn said that a few leaders in our Church did the same. But I’m saying that they didn’t find our Church

Fortunately I’m old enough to not judge your church by your behavior here.

You’re actually the one whose been snarky and just plain judgmental in this whole discussion. So before you judge “my behavior” be sure, that you are treating others as you would want to be treated.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

When you said “find” and “founder” did you mean found and founded?

Jesus *founded *our church. Some have said that Jesus’ comparison of gentiles to dogs was “racist,” but I think that’s a lot of blather, like your sanctimonious rantings against my church.

So before you judge “my behavior” be sure, that you are treating others as you would want to be treated

Absolutely. If I ever behave as you have here, I hope that folks treat me exactly as I’ve treated you, and that I won’t whine about it

 

[followingtheway]

When you said “find” and “founder” did you mean found and founded?

founded :sad_yes:

Jesus *founded *our church.

No Joseph Smith did 1800 years later .

Some have said that Jesus’ comparison of gentiles to dogs was “racist,” but I think that’s a lot of blather (spoken like a true follower of Christ ), like your sanctimonious rantings against my church.

You’ve been far more sanctimonious than me in this whole discussion, your attitude is very “in your face” rather than the persona of Jesus.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Apologies for not replying to this earlier, Steve; I missed it.

Do you have any actual evidence that JS ordained blacks to the priesthood? I’ve never heard this before.

Joseph Smith ordianed Elijah Abel to the priesthood and also to the Quorum of the Seventy which is more or less the mormon equivalent of a Catholic Cardinal. There were others, but that’s the most famous.

 

[SteveVH]

Apologies for not replying to this earlier, Steve; I missed it.
Joseph Smith ordianed Elijah Abel to the priesthood and also to the Quorum of the Seventy which is more or less the mormon equivalent of a Catholic Cardinal. There were others, but that’s the most famous.

No problem, thanks for the response. This is very interesting. When did it become “official” Mormon policy to deny blacks the priesthood if this didn’t start with JS? I know it was a big deal when the “ban”, for lack of a better word, was lifted and I’m pretty sure the Quorum of Twelve was involved, am I correct?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

No problem, thanks for the response. This is very interesting. When did it become “official” Mormon policy to deny blacks the priesthood if this didn’t start with JS? I know it was a big deal when the “ban”, for lack of a better word, was lifted and I’m pretty sure the Quorum of Twelve was involved, am I correct?

It’s an ugly and embarrassing story, and I hope that my candor is appreciated in what to me is a delicate matter.

In 1845, a year after the death of Joseph Smith, a black LDS priesthood holder named William McCary, married Lucy Stanton, a white daughter of Daniel Stanton, a former high councilor and stake president. As best I can tell, there wasn’t a major controversy there, which in itself seems remarkable. McCary joined the LDS community in Winter Quarters, Nebraska in 1846-47, when Brigham Young was there. While in Winter Quarters, McCary began claiming powers of prophesy and transfiguration, essentially made a play for leadership. He also started taking multiple white wives, through his own claimed authority, some of whom were already married. McCary was excommunicated

That’s the context in which Brigham Young appears to have enacted the restrictions against Blacks being ordained to the priesthood. McCary settled a short distance away and began attracting some Winter Quarters followers to his own brand of “Mormonism” (big surprise there )

AFAIK the earliest known statement by any Mormon leader, regarding blacks being restricted from priesthood ordination, was made by Apostle Parley P. Pratt a month after McCary was expelled from Winter Quarters.

The timing to me suggests a connection.

I can see how the incident might influence Brigham Young into believing that the prohibition was somehow necessary to protect the church. Although from my perspective it does seem politically motivated.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s an ugly and embarrassing story, and I hope that my candor is appreciated in what to me is a delicate matter.

In 1845, a year after the death of Joseph Smith, a black LDS priesthood holder named William McCary, married Lucy Stanton, a white daughter of Daniel Stanton, a former high councilor and stake president. As best I can tell, there wasn’t a major controversy there, which in itself seems remarkable. McCary joined the LDS community in Winter Quarters, Nebraska in 1846-47, when Brigham Young was there. While in Winter Quarters, McCary began claiming powers of prophesy and transfiguration, essentially made a play for leadership. He also started taking multiple white wives, through his own claimed authority, some of whom were already married. McCary was excommunicated

That’s the context in which Brigham Young appears to have enacted the restrictions against Blacks being ordained to the priesthood. McCary settled a short distance away and began attracting some Winter Quarters followers to his own brand of “Mormonism” (big surprise there )

AFAIK the earliest known statement by any Mormon leader, regarding blacks being restricted from priesthood ordination, was made by Apostle Parley P. Pratt a month after McCary was expelled from Winter Quarters.

The timing to me suggests a connection.

I can see how the incident might influence Brigham Young into believing that the prohibition was somehow necessary to protect the church. Although from my perspective it does seem politically motivated.

Your candor is very much appreciated. Thanks for your honesty. I learned something today. We certainly have some events over the centuries of which I am not real proud as well.

 

[NewSeeker]

That’s very interesting information, Cowboy Pete, thanks for sharing. For me, it ultimately comes down to the huge cog diss caused by a so-called prophet mistakenly believing he has received revelation and passing off his own private opinion as true doctrine. Either a prophet is able to clearly distinguish between the two or he is completely worthless as a guide. Just toss him and his opinions, I mean revelations, I mean opinions on the trash heap where they belong.

Edited to add: In fact, if the doctrinal status of prophetic utterances depends on the unanimous approval of the Twelve and the final step of Common Consent, operating under the guidance of the Spirit, then it follows necessarily that it is no longer the prophet who receives revelation for the Church. As I said, it’s time to place the LDS prophet’s office in the trash bin.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Newseeker, how is it that you are now in Germany!

 

[NewSeeker]

Newseeker, how is it that you are now in Germany!

I got a job with the Department of Defense Dependent Schools (DoDDS). DoD moved the entire family, our possessions, one car, and two dogs to Germany for a three-year tour of duty. After that, who knows? Any place where there are American schools run by the military, we could end up.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

That’s very interesting information, Cowboy Pete, thanks for sharing. For me, it ultimately comes down to the huge cog diss caused by a so-called prophet mistakenly believing he has received revelation and passing off his own private opinion as true doctrine.

Not sure which incident you’re referring to. With the racism stuff, Brigham Young never even claimed any revelation. With King Follet, Joseph Smith does sound awfully sure of himself, but he never outright claims revelation – please correct me if I’m wrong; it’s been a while since I read it.

Stress in my life has nothing to do with the church. My stress involves worrying for my disabled kid, trying to keep him from hurting my wife or my other sons, and trying to keep my clients (mostly very nice Catholic Spanish-speaking families) from being jailed, deported, or otherwise destroyed. For me, cognitive dissonance is smiling and trying shmooze a racist and sadistic prosecutor on behalf of an innocent client.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I got a job with the Department of Defense Dependent Schools (DoDDS). DoD moved the entire family, our possessions, one car, and two dogs to Germany for a three-year tour of duty. After that, who knows? Any place where there are American schools run by the military, we could end up.

Wow, that is great. I’m going to shoot you a PM.