Mormon belief of God (redux)

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RebeccaJ

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This is a branch off another thread. To not go off topic (as usual 😃 ).

First, falisrm, you should also know that I am a former Mormon (BIC). So I am not unfamiliar with your beliefs, just, since I left Mormonism many Mormons have taken the term Trinity and redefined the word. In so doing, they have changed definitions of what I was taught as a Mormon. So when I say that I don’t understand what you mean, it is because you aren’t speaking in terms that I learned as a Mormon.

OK, on to the discussion:

faisrm said: I believe that Christ is God, even the very son of God.

This was in response to me saying that Mormons believe that Jesus is not God, but A god.

I’ll start there, with further clarification of what I meant. I am not telling Mormons what they believe, but saying what I understand they mean. So please don’t start with the “stop telling me what I believe” bit. (Thanks.)

Mormons believe that Jesus was once a spirit, in a pre-existence, just like every other person who has been born. Like Catholics, they believe He is the Son of God. Though, the understandings are quite different. That is another tangent that we can cover perhaps later.

Though they believe He is the Son of God, they do not believe He was exalted (became a god) until His resurrection. Catholics believe He was fully God and fully Man.

Onto the Trinity. Catholics believe the Father is spirit, Mormons believe He has a body. Catholics believe the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus are One. One God, comprised of three distinct Persons. As such, their is one will, one purpose, One everything.

Mormons believe that the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus are three distinct persons as well, but not One God. They believe they are three separate gods who are united in purpose. Though, I am a bit fuzzy on if the Holy Spirit is a god yet, as my understanding is that one has to have a physical body in order to be a god.

So, when falisrm clarifies that Christ is God, not as I view the Mormon belief as Christ is a god, this is what I do not understand. How can Christ be God if there is no belief in One God, but there is a belief in three gods??
 
I hope you don’t mind me asking but how long were you a Mormon and How old were you when you left the church?
 
Jash said:
I hope you don’t mind me asking but how long were you a Mormon and How old were you when you left the church?
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One in the same question. As I said I am BIC. Raised in a very active LDS family, dad bishop, mom rs pres., went to 6 years of seminary, laurel pres., friends with children of apostles, etc. etc. I started doubting around age 15 or so, started going inactive around age 17 or 18. By 23 I was out.

Why do you ask?
 
Largely because I don’t think I really started understanding the doctrines until age 19-21. It was only through daily study and sharing what I had studied/learned/understood with others that I began to get a better grasp of LDS doctrine. And frankly, I’m still learning.
To be honest that’s largely why I am in these forums. Living in Utah you don’t get challenged about your doctrine very often. And its that opposition that really forces one to read your doctrines carefully enough to gain a better understanding.
Casually reading you may have an epitome once in a blue moon. But fervently searching and studying for answers really speeds up the process. I just don’t think there are many teenagers who ever get to that process. Just my opinion though.
 
Jash said:
Largely because I don’t think I really started understanding the doctrines until age 19-21. It was only through daily study and sharing what I had studied/learned/understood with others that I began to get a better grasp of LDS doctrine. And frankly, I’m still learning.
To be honest that’s largely why I am in these forums. Living in Utah you don’t get challenged about your doctrine very often. And its that opposition that really forces one to read your doctrines carefully enough to gain a better understanding.
Casually reading you may have an epitome once in a blue moon. But fervently searching and studying for answers really speeds up the process. I just don’t think there are many teenagers who ever get to that process. Just my opinion though.
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Yes, I have had other Mormons tell me this before.

Mormons do not teach their teenagers to think. It was all “this is the truth”, the end. I believed that, completely, until about age 12 or 13.

I did a lot of thinking. When I asked questions, I got the same old tired answers (like happens in this forum). When I asked the really hard questions, I got blank stares. When I left, I was condemned by my bishop for pretending I was a good Mormon when I wasn’t.

I wasn’t pretending, I was trying pretty dang hard actually. It could never add up for me jash. You have to go by a lot of “feeling” in Mormonism, and I have always been more of a logical thinker than a feeling thinker. Logically, Mormonism does not add up, at all. Starting with God, it is so convoluted that I can’t get a straight answer from a Mormon today. Not one that takes into account everything, from beginning to end. You have to discount a lot of facts.

You chose to respond to the thread, but not to what I wrote. Instead, you go after “what is wrong with Rebecca that she doesn’t get it”.

Pretty much, that is the only answer that I have ever gotten. I have done a lot of thinking, self searching, rejected God completely because of what Mormonism taught me, and by the strangest of circumtances decided to study what Christianity teaches, and so I started with the oldest form I could find, Catholicism. I had no intention of converting. I spent nearly two years studying Catholicism, and during that time I would compare what I was studying to Mormonism. Actually, revisiting Mormonism in the process. I read a lot. I signed up a subscription to gospelink.com so that I had access to as much as a I could get my hands on. I studied. And as I learned more about God, I started to pray, which as an atheist was the damned weirdest thing ever. I ask God to guide me to Him. That was my only prayer. Through personal experiences that I would say are quite miraculous, considering where I was coming from, God led me to the Catholic Church.

The two cannot be true at the same time. There i only one truth.
 
RebeccaJ said:
You chose to respond to the thread, but not to what I wrote. Instead, you go after “what is wrong with Rebecca that she doesn’t get it”.
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Not at all. I was just curious. Thank you for your reply.
RebeccaJ said:
The two cannot be true at the same time. There i only one truth.
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Agreed. As long as we do not imply one is completely false and the other completely true. Truth may be found in any religion.
 
Post #1 in this thread. Her list of Mormon beliefs concerning the nature of God.
 
ricko said:
Post #1 in this thread. Her list of Mormon beliefs concerning the nature of God.
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Ok. sorry. I was just a little lost. I am trying to keep track of too many threads. I agree in part with what she has said.

The Bible Dictionary provides an excellent summary on our concept of “God” and is available here. Our concept is somewhat different from mainstream Christianity so be prepared. I will attempt to summarize my understanding of our beliefs as follows:

We believe that within scripture “God” can refer to several different things. Most frequently the term refers to our Father or Elohim. However, There are a variety of instances in which God refers directly to Jesus Christ. Personally I think of god as more of a title (meaning “supreme creator and father of mankind”) than a specific individual. We use the term “Godhead” to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost at the same time. We do believe all three to be gods. I am unaware of any specific time frames on when they became so.
 
Jash said:
Ok. sorry. I was just a little lost. I am trying to keep track of too many threads. I agree in part with what she has said.

The Bible Dictionary provides an excellent summary on our concept of “God” and is available here. Our concept is somewhat different from mainstream Christianity so be prepared. I will attempt to summarize my understanding of our beliefs as follows:

We believe that within scripture “God” can refer to several different things. Most frequently the term refers to our Father or Elohim. However, There are a variety of instances in which God refers directly to Jesus Christ. Personally I think of god as more of a title (meaning “supreme creator and father of mankind”) than a specific individual. We use the term “Godhead” to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost at the same time. We do believe all three to be gods. I am unaware of any specific time frames on when they became so.
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From your link jash, to the point of falisrm where he said Jesus is God, not A God…

“is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God”

I wish you Mormons would get your story straight. It would be a lot less confusing for all of us.
 
RebeccaJ said:
From your link jash, to the point of falisrm where he said Jesus is God, not A God…

“is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God”

I wish you Mormons would get your story straight. It would be a lot less confusing for all of us.
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This is why I like to think of “God” as a title defined as “Creator of the earth and father of mankind.” In this way the phrases “Jesus is a God” or “Jesus is God” would be synonymous.
 
Jash said:
This is why I like to think of “God” as a title defined as “Creator of the earth and father of mankind.” In this way the phrases “Jesus is a God” or “Jesus is God” would be synonymous.
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Oh, I see. I do tend to forget to think like a henotheist when talking about Mormon beliefs about God. And the goal is that some time in the future, you’ll be able to say this about yourself.
 
Jash said:
I am unaware of any specific time frames on when they became so.
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When would you suppose that Jesus the Man became God?

“He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day with an exalted, perfected, glorified, and resurrected body like the Father’s.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, McConkie, Bruce R, 1973, Bookcraft)

“The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father” (Christ and the New Covenant, Holland, Jeffrey R, 1997, Deseret Book)
 
I wouldn’t bother supposing because it would be purely speculative and really doesn’t matter much when it comes to doing what we need to do to get where we need to go.
 
Jash said:
. Living in Utah you don’t get challenged about your doctrine very often. And its that opposition that really forces one to read your doctrines carefully enough to gain a better understanding.
Hi Jash, Here are some challenging questions I found on contenderministries.org
Questions all Mormons should ask themselves
  1. If Gods are individuals who have passed through mortality and have progressed to Godhood, how has one person of the Trinity (the Holy Spirit) attained Godhood without getting a body? (See Acts 5:3,4)
  2. If Gods are individuals who have passed through an earth life to attain Godhood, how is it that one person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) was God before He received a body or passed through earth life? (Matt. 1:23 and Hebrews 10:5)
  3. If the Book of Mormon really contains the fullness of the Gospel, why does it not teach the doctrine of “eternal progression”? (See D&C 20:8,9)
  4. God said, “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any”. How can there be Gods who are Elohim’s ancestors? Surely an all-knowing God would know this and wouldn’t speak falsehoods. (See Isa. 44:8 and Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 123)
  5. How can any men ever become Gods when the Bible says, “Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me”? (Isaiah 43:10)
  6. If Adam is the “only God with whom we have to do”, did Adam create himself? (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 50, 51)
  7. Joseph Smith stated that without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood no man can see the face of God and live (D & C 84:21, 22). He also said that he saw God in 1820 (Joseph Smith 2:17). Joseph Smith, however, never received any priesthood until 1829 (D&C 13). How did he see God and survive? In which was he in error: his revelation in D & C 84:21, 22 or his experience in the grove?
  8. If a spirit is a being without a body (See Luke 24:39), why do Mormons teach that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? (See John 4:24)
  9. If the Father is Elohim and Jesus is Jehovah (as the Mormons teach), how does a Mormon explain Deuteronomy 6:4, which in the Hebrew says, “Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah”?
  10. If the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel, why doesn’t it teach that God was once a man?
  11. If Mormonism is the restored church, which is based upon the Bible, why are Mormon leaders so quick to state that the Bible is “translated wrong” when faced with some conflict between the Bible and Mormonism?
  12. If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, page 50)
  13. Why did Christ not return in 1891 as Joseph Smith predicted? (History of the Church, Vol. 2 page 182).
  14. Journal of Discourses Vol. 2, page 210 says Jesus was being married to Mary and Martha in Cana. Why then was he INVITED to his own wedding? (John 2:1,2)
  15. Why does the Mormon church teach that there is no eternal hell when the Book of Mormon teaches that there is? (I Nephi 14:3, II Ne. 9:16;28: 21-23, Mosiah 3:25, Alma 34:35, Heleman 6:28 and 3:25,26).
  16. How can Mormons teach that the repentant thief was not saved when the Book of Mormon states that Paradise is where the righteous go? (Luke 23:43, Alma 40:12, 16)
  17. How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon’s while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (See I Kings 5:13-18 and II Nephi 5:15-17)
  18. If the book of Mormon is true, why hasn’t a valid geography been established for the book?
  19. Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (D & C 132; and History of the Church Vol. 6, page 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, page 324)
  20. If Lehi left Jerusalem before 600 B.C., how did he learn about synagogues? (See II Nephi 26:26)
  21. If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to become white when they become Mormons? (II Nephi 30:6 – prior to 1981 revision)
  22. What kind of chariots did the Nephites have in 90 B.C. some 1500 years before the introduction of the wheel on the Western Hemisphere? (Alma 18:9)
  23. How do Mormons account for the word “church” in the Book of Mormon, about 600 B.C., which was centuries before the beginning of the Church on the day of Pentecost? (I Nephi 4:26)
  24. How do Mormons account for the italicized words in the King James Version (indicating their absence in the Hebrew and Greek) being found in the Book of Mormon? (A comparison of Mosiah 14 and Isaiah 53 will provide at least 13 examples)
  25. How did the French word “adieu” get into the Book of Mormon? (Jacob 7:27)
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ron77nyc said:
Jash;4008691:
. Living in Utah you don’t get challenged about your doctrine very often. And its that opposition that really forces one to read your doctrines carefully enough to gain a better understanding.
Hi Jash, Here are some challenging questions I found on contenderministries.org
Questions all Mormons should ask themselves
PAGE 2
26. Was it right or wrong for Solomon to have many wives? (See Jacob 2:24; D & C 132:38,39) Which is it?
  1. If polygamy was a provision for increasing population rapidly, why did God give Adam only one wife?
  2. D&C 129:4, 5 says, “When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.” How can this test distinguish between an angel of God and a Jehovah’s Witness missionary…or a Mormon Elder.
  3. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, why did he fail to realize that “Elias” is the N.T. form of the name “Elijah”? (D & C 110:12,13 and 1 Kings 17:1 and James 5:17) How could Elijah (Elias) have appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirkland Temple as two different people?
  4. If children have no sins until they are eight years old, why are they baptized at age eight to wash away non-existent sins? (See Moroni 8:8)
  5. How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri when the Pearl of Great Price declares that it was in the vicinity of Assyria and had the Euphrates and Hiddekel Rivers in it? (See P of GP Moses 3:14 and D&C 116 and 117; Genesis 2:8-15)
  6. Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269) Why did the Mormons yield to the pressure of the government and stop practicing polygamy?
  7. Heber C. Kimball stated, “We are th people of Deseret, she shall be no more Utah: we will have our own name”. Why did this prophecy fail? (J of D. Vol. 5, page 161)
  8. How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighted about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. Per cubic foot. The plates were 7” x 8” by about 6”. See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th Ed.)
  9. When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days of for three hours? (See Luke 23:44 and III Nephi 8:19, 23)
  10. If the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, why have the Mormons changed it? (There have been over 3,000 changes in the Book of Mormon, exclusive of punctuation changes)
  11. If God speaks through a prophet, why do Mormons vote on whether or not to receive and authorize it?
  12. It has been established that the “Sensen” manuscript was simply a common Egyptian burial papyrus. Why do the Mormons still accept the Book of Abraham which was translated from that manuscript?
  13. Why is it that no other writings have been found in the language of “Reformed Egyptian”, the supposed language of the Book of Mormon plates? Is there evidence that such a language really existed?
  14. Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to heaven? (See The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol 3, pages 263, 264.)
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ron77nyc said:
ron77nyc;4142120:
Jash;4008691:
. Living in Utah you don’t get challenged about your doctrine very often. And its that opposition that really forces one to read your doctrines carefully enough to gain a better understanding.
Hi Jash, Here are some challenging questions I found on contenderministries.org
Questions all Mormons should ask themselves
PAGE 3
41. Why do Mormons not study Hebrew and Greek so that they can intelligently discuss the accuracy of the translation of the Bible?
  1. Joseph Smith prepared fourteen Articles of Faith. Why has the original No. 11 been omitted?
  2. According to Hebrews 7:24, the Melchizedek Priesthood is not transferable. Why do Mormons pass it from one to another?
  3. If Mormonism came as a revelation from God, why are the Mormon Temple Oaths almost identical to the oaths of the Masonic Lodge?
  4. Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (D&C 124:56-60)
  5. If genealogies are important, why does the New Testament tell Christians to avoid them? (I Timothy 1:4; Titus 3:9)
  6. The Bible says, “The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin”. Why did Brigham Young say that there are some sins which can be atoned for only by the shedding of ones own blood.
  7. God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made. Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons? (Gen. 3:21)
  8. Why do Mormons insist that Ezekiel 37:15-22 is about two books instead of about two kingdoms as god Himself explained in verse 22?
  9. If Acts 3:20, 21 is a prophecy about the restoration of Mormonism, why didn’t Jesus return in 1830?
  10. Revelation 14:6,7 is part of the body of prophecy about the future Great Tribulation. How could that passage have been fulfilled by Moroni in 1830?
  11. In light of Ezekiel 28:13-15 and Hebrews 1:5, how can Satan and Jesus be brothers (as the Mormons teach)? (note: Satan was created)
  12. If no person ever receives the Holy Spirit before baptism or without the laying on of hands, how does a Mormon explain the case of Cornelius? (See Acts 10:44-47)
  13. If baptism for the dead was a Christian ceremony, why did Paul use the pronoun “they” rather than “we” or “ye”? Why did he exclude himself and other Christians when referring to it? (I Cor. 15:29)
  14. Since the Bible says that a Bishop should be the husband of one wife, how can Mormons claim that polygamy is proper for New Testament Christians? (I Timothy 3:2)
  15. Why does the Mormon church teach that the broad way leads to the Terrestrial Heaven when Jesus taught that it leads to destruction? (Matthew 7:13, 14)
  16. Are you sincere enough about your personal salvation that you will carefully study the following Bible references to discover the Bible’s way to salvation?
John 10:9; I Corinthians 1:18; Ephesians 2:8-10; Colossians 1:12-14; Romans 4:8; I Peter 2:24; Acts 16:31; John 1:12; I John 5:12, 13; Romans 5:1 and Romans 8:1
  1. Are you courageous enough to personally receive the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart and follow the truth regardless of ridicule, antagonism or persecution?
John 1:12; Col. 1:27, and Revelation 3:20
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