J
JRKH
Guest
As the “Can the Mormon Church be the True Church” thread has gotten a bit crazy since I was last on, I am starting a new one to ask a couple of questions.
NOTE – To anyone who wishes to Post Here, Please Keep this thread on the topic of What Mormon’s Actually Believe and is Documented. We, as Catholics, get rightfully frustrated when others “tell us” what we “believe”. Let us use the same courtesy to others. Mormon Beliefs can be found readily on line. One Place is HERE.
I was discussing the idea of the Keys being withdrawn from earth because there were no more “Apostles”. That is, there was no longer a valid “Priesthood”.
This is taken from the Mormon Publication “The Restoration” on page 8 where it says, “With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again.”
Now suffice it to say that I find this to be an extraordinary statement. But let’s look at it a bit. The Mormon position is that, the Apostles failed, or did not, call additional Apostles and this resulted in the loss of the “Valid Priesthood”. But why should it?
First of all, what does the term “Apostle”, mean. Does it mean “One who receives revelation? No it does not. It means one who is sent forth. Did Jesus only send the twelve? Again, no He did not. On the great mission during Jesus lifetime he sent out 70, including the twelve, in pairs… So obviously His power was not restricted to the twelve.
Again, if we look at Pentecost, does the Holy Spirit come only to the twelve? No. For it says in Acts 2:1 that, “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Does “all” mean just the twelve Apostles? Not according to a previous Statement in Acts 1: 13-15 we get a number at around 120 of faithful disciples gathered in the upper room.
So Now if we look at Acts2:1-4 we see
“1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the R55 whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
This seems to fly in the face of the Mormon belief that Revelation through the Holy Spirit of God was limited only to those called Apostles.
Add to this the fact that, when the Apostles layed hands on anyone, they invoked the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name. It is inconceivable that The Apostolic power and mission died with the original Apostles.
I will add one more thing from the pamphlet “The Restoration”. It can be found almost verbatim HERE. IT says:
“This apostasy led to the formation of many churches with conflicting teachings. Without the full gospel or the priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures? and the principles and ordinances? of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth, and much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. The doctrines of faith? in Jesus Christ, repentance?, baptism?, and the gift of the Holy Ghost? became distorted or forgotten. Each generation inherited a state of apostasy, as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel. Some inspired people, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, recognized that practices and doctrines had been changed or lost and tried to reform the churches to which they belonged. Without the priesthood authority, however, Christ’s gospel could not be returned to its original form.
You’ll note that this skips completely over nearly 1500 years of Church History and goes refers directly to Luther and Calvin. It then states that these people were not successful so the Restoration waited until the 1830’s. That’s nearly 1700 years of Apostasy, which is longer than the time from the Exodus until the time of Christ’s birth.
Did God ever abandon Israel for such a time in the OT?
The answer is no. Did He chastise His people – Yes He did, but He never abandoned them.
So by Mormon belief, Christ abandoned His Church for 1700 years.
To me, this makes no logical sense when compared to the Old covenants an the Promises of Christ to the Apostles to Build a Church and to be with Her until the end of the Age.
Peace
James
NOTE – To anyone who wishes to Post Here, Please Keep this thread on the topic of What Mormon’s Actually Believe and is Documented. We, as Catholics, get rightfully frustrated when others “tell us” what we “believe”. Let us use the same courtesy to others. Mormon Beliefs can be found readily on line. One Place is HERE.
I was discussing the idea of the Keys being withdrawn from earth because there were no more “Apostles”. That is, there was no longer a valid “Priesthood”.
This is taken from the Mormon Publication “The Restoration” on page 8 where it says, “With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again.”
Now suffice it to say that I find this to be an extraordinary statement. But let’s look at it a bit. The Mormon position is that, the Apostles failed, or did not, call additional Apostles and this resulted in the loss of the “Valid Priesthood”. But why should it?
First of all, what does the term “Apostle”, mean. Does it mean “One who receives revelation? No it does not. It means one who is sent forth. Did Jesus only send the twelve? Again, no He did not. On the great mission during Jesus lifetime he sent out 70, including the twelve, in pairs… So obviously His power was not restricted to the twelve.
Again, if we look at Pentecost, does the Holy Spirit come only to the twelve? No. For it says in Acts 2:1 that, “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Does “all” mean just the twelve Apostles? Not according to a previous Statement in Acts 1: 13-15 we get a number at around 120 of faithful disciples gathered in the upper room.
So Now if we look at Acts2:1-4 we see
“1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the R55 whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
This seems to fly in the face of the Mormon belief that Revelation through the Holy Spirit of God was limited only to those called Apostles.
Add to this the fact that, when the Apostles layed hands on anyone, they invoked the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name. It is inconceivable that The Apostolic power and mission died with the original Apostles.
I will add one more thing from the pamphlet “The Restoration”. It can be found almost verbatim HERE. IT says:
“This apostasy led to the formation of many churches with conflicting teachings. Without the full gospel or the priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures? and the principles and ordinances? of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth, and much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. The doctrines of faith? in Jesus Christ, repentance?, baptism?, and the gift of the Holy Ghost? became distorted or forgotten. Each generation inherited a state of apostasy, as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel. Some inspired people, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, recognized that practices and doctrines had been changed or lost and tried to reform the churches to which they belonged. Without the priesthood authority, however, Christ’s gospel could not be returned to its original form.
You’ll note that this skips completely over nearly 1500 years of Church History and goes refers directly to Luther and Calvin. It then states that these people were not successful so the Restoration waited until the 1830’s. That’s nearly 1700 years of Apostasy, which is longer than the time from the Exodus until the time of Christ’s birth.
Did God ever abandon Israel for such a time in the OT?
The answer is no. Did He chastise His people – Yes He did, but He never abandoned them.
So by Mormon belief, Christ abandoned His Church for 1700 years.
To me, this makes no logical sense when compared to the Old covenants an the Promises of Christ to the Apostles to Build a Church and to be with Her until the end of the Age.
Peace
James
