Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[MEgus]

James and Paul,

I can see why the beliefs you have would indicate to you a continuation of the Priesthood.

It seems that to you, priesthood is priesthood and that anyone who is given it also has the authority to give to another and so it would continue that way.

Our understanding is different.

For instance, while a deacon is given the Aaronic priesthood, he has no authority to pass that to anyone. Same with the Teachers. The Priests have the authority to baptize and also, under the direction of the Bishop, confer the Aaronic priesthood on other deacons, teachers, or priests.

The Bishop is the head of the Aaronic Priesthood and presides over it. He can receive revelation from God on who this priesthood should be given to who are under his direction. But a Bishop from one ward can not go into another Bishop’s ward and confer the priesthood upon a Deacon, Teacher, or Priest without the approval of the presiding Bishop of that ward.

A Bishop holds the Melchizedek Priesthood, or higher priesthood and is an Elder. But those who preside over this is the President of the Church.

I’ll try to get some more on this for you.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Melchizedek Priesthood

Through the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, Church leaders guide the Church and direct the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. In the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood, “the power of godliness is manifest” (D&C 84:20). This greater priesthood was given to Adam and has been on the earth whenever the Lord has revealed His gospel. It was taken from the earth during the Great Apostasy, but it was restored in 1829, when the Apostles Peter, James, and John conferred it upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

“There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic” (D&C 107:1). The Melchizedek Priesthood, which is “after the Order of the Son of God” (D&C 107:3), is the greater of these. It “holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church” (D&C 107:8). It also holds “the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church” (D&C 107:18). It is named after a great high priest who lived during the time of the prophet Abraham (see D&C 107:2–4; see also Alma 13:14–19).

The offices of the Melchizedek Priesthood are Apostle, Seventy, patriarch, high priest, and elder. The President of the High Priesthood is the President of the Church (see D&C 107:64–66).

Men in the Church must be worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holders in order to receive the temple endowment and be sealed to their families for eternity. They have the authority to administer to the sick and give special blessings to family members and others. With the authorization of presiding priesthood leaders, they can bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost and ordain other worthy men to offices in the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

When a man receives the Melchizedek Priesthood, he enters into the oath and covenant of the priesthood. He covenants to be faithful, magnify his calling, “give diligent heed to the words of eternal life,” and “live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.” Those who keep this covenant will be sanctified by the Spirit and receive “all that [the] Father hath.” (See D&C 84:33–44.)

 

[MEgus]

Aaronic Priesthood

In the Church today, worthy male members may receive the Aaronic Priesthood beginning at age 12. These young men, typically ages 12–17, receive many opportunities to participate in sacred priesthood ordinances and give service. As they worthily fulfill their duties, they act in the name of the Lord to help others receive the blessings of the gospel.

As the Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he found mention of baptism for the remission of sins. On May 15, 1829, he and his scribe Oliver Cowdery went into the woods to inquire of the Lord concerning baptism. As they prayed, “a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light.” This messenger was John the Baptist, the prophet who had baptized Jesus Christ centuries earlier. John the Baptist, now a resurrected being, laid his hands on Joseph and on Oliver and conferred upon each of them the Aaronic Priesthood, which had been taken from the earth during the Great Apostasy. With this authority, Joseph and Oliver were able to baptize one another. (See Joseph Smith—History 1:68–72.)

The offices of the Aaronic Priesthood are bishop, priest, teacher, and deacon. With the authorization of the presiding priesthood leader (usually the bishop or branch president), deacons pass the sacrament. They help the bishop or branch president watch over Church members by giving service and assisting with temporal matters such as gathering fast offerings. Teachers may perform all the duties of deacons, and they also receive other opportunities to serve. They prepare the sacramental bread and water and serve as home teachers. Priests may perform all the duties of deacons and teachers. With the authorization of the presiding priesthood leader, they may also bless the sacrament, baptize, and ordain others to the offices of priest, teacher, and deacon.

The Aaronic Priesthood is “an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood” (D&C 107:14). It is often called the preparatory priesthood. As a priesthood holder serves in the Aaronic Priesthood, he prepares to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, to receive the blessings of the temple, to serve a full-time mission, to be a loving husband and father, and to continue in lifelong service to the Lord.

 

[MEgus]

Here’s some more information that might clarify what we feel Priesthood is and why we differ on this point.

Priesthood Keys

The exercise of priesthood authority in the Church is governed by those who hold priesthood keys (see D&C 65:2; 124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. For example, a bishop holds priesthood keys that enable him to preside in his ward. Therefore, when a child in that ward is prepared to be baptized, the person baptizing the child must receive authorization from the bishop.

Jesus Christ holds all the keys of the priesthood. He has given His Apostles the keys that are necessary for governing His Church. Only the senior Apostle, the President of the Church, may use (or authorize another person to use) these keys for governing the entire Church (see D&C 43:1–4; 81:2; 132:7).

The President of the Church delegates priesthood keys to other priesthood leaders so they can preside in their areas of responsibility. Priesthood keys are bestowed on presidents of temples, missions, stakes, and districts; bishops; branch presidents; and quorum presidents. A person who serves in one of these positions holds the keys only until he is released. Counselors do not receive keys, but they do receive authority and responsibility by calling and assignment.

 

[MEgus]

Priesthood

The priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. Through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. Through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass “the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children. Priesthood holders can be authorized to preach the gospel, administer the ordinances of salvation, and govern the kingdom of God on the earth.

Male members of the Church may begin their priesthood service when they reach the age of 12. They begin by holding the Aaronic Priesthood, and they later may qualify to have the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred on them. At different stages in their lives and as they prepare themselves to receive different responsibilities, they hold different offices in the priesthood, such as deacon, teacher, or priest in the Aaronic Priesthood and elder or high priest in the Melchizedek Priesthood.

For a male member of the Church to hold the priesthood, an authorized priesthood holder must confer it on him and ordain him to an office in that priesthood (see Hebrews 5:4; D&C 42:11; Articles of Faith 1:5).

Although the authority of the priesthood is bestowed only on worthy male members of the Church, the blessings of the priesthood are available to all—men, women, and children. We all benefit from the influence of righteous priesthood leadership, and we all have the privilege of receiving the saving ordinances of the priesthood.

The most important exercise of the priesthood takes place in the family. Each husband and father in the Church should strive to be worthy to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. With his wife as an equal partner, he presides in righteousness and love, serving as the family’s spiritual leader. He leads the family in regular prayer, scripture study, and family home evening. He works with his wife to teach the children and help them prepare to receive the ordinances of salvation (see D&C 68:25–28). He gives priesthood blessings for direction, healing, and comfort.

Many members do not have faithful Melchizedek Priesthood holders in their homes. However, through the service of home teachers and priesthood leaders, all members of the Church can enjoy the blessings of priesthood power in their lives.

Priesthood Quorums

A priesthood quorum is an organized group of brethren who hold the same priesthood office. The primary purposes of quorums are to serve others, build unity and brotherhood, and instruct one another in doctrines, principles, and duties.

Quorums exist at all levels of Church organization. The President of the Church and his counselors form the Quorum of the First Presidency. The Twelve Apostles also form a quorum. Seventies, both General Authorities and Area Authorities, are organized into quorums. Each stake president presides over a quorum of high priests, made up of all the high priests in the stake. Each ward or branch normally has quorums of elders, priests, teachers, and deacons. High priests are also organized in wards, serving in high priests groups.

Home Teaching

From the time priesthood holders are ordained to the office of teacher, they have the opportunity and responsibility to serve as home teachers. In this way they work toward fulfilling their duty to “watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them” (D&C 20:53).

Home teachers have a sacred duty to be the Church’s first source of help to individuals and families. They visit their assigned members at least monthly. In serving and visiting their assigned members, they support parents in their responsibilities, teach the gospel to each family member, nurture friendships, and help members prepare to receive temple ordinances and live worthy of the blessings of the gospel.

Leaders in wards and branches ensure that home teachers are assigned to each family or individual. They follow up with home teachers to help meet each member’s spiritual and temporal needs.

Exercising the Priesthood Righteously

Priesthood holders must remember that the priesthood should be a part of them at all times and in all circumstances. It is not like a cloak that can be put on and taken off at will. Any ordination to a priesthood office is a call to lifelong service, with the promise that the Lord will qualify priesthood holders to do His work according to their faithfulness.

Priesthood holders must be worthy in order to receive and exercise priesthood power. The words they speak and their everyday behavior affect their ability to serve. Their behavior in public must be above reproach. Their behavior in private is even more important. Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord declared that “the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness” (D&C 121:36).

 

[JRKH]

James and Paul,

I can see why the beliefs you have would indicate to you a continuation of the Priesthood.

It seems that to you, priesthood is priesthood and that anyone who is given it also has the authority to give to another and so it would continue that way.

Our understanding is different.

For instance, while a deacon is given the Aaronic priesthood, he has no authority to pass that to anyone. Same with the Teachers. The Priests have the authority to baptize and also, under the direction of the Bishop, confer the Aaronic priesthood on other deacons, teachers, or priests.

The Bishop is the head of the Aaronic Priesthood and presides over it. He can receive revelation from God on who this priesthood should be given to who are under his direction. But a Bishop from one ward can not go into another Bishop’s ward and confer the priesthood upon a Deacon, Teacher, or Priest without the approval of the presiding Bishop of that ward.

A Bishop holds the Melchizedek Priesthood, or higher priesthood and is an Elder. But those who preside over this is the President of the Church.

I’ll try to get some more on this for you.

MEgus

We do understand the concept of Heirachy in priesthood. As an example it is a Bishop who ordains Priests - not other Priests. It is the Pope who selects Bishops and Cardinals etc. That is not an issue.

I will try to read through the info you’ve provided as soon as I can.

IN the meantime I am still waiting for an answer to my question about what would happen if the LDS Apostles were all to die simutanously in some contastrophe.

Also I’d like to know how often the LDS believe the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored.

Peace
James

 

[truthsilence]

Yes. literal spiritual children; His created children; The idea floating out there seems to be one of God keeping women eternally pregnant, but if you think about it, that’s pretty ludicrous; WE believe that He has a physical body. Wouldn’t pregnancy as people think about it, produce children who have physical bodies? I mean, that’s what happens HERE. Therefore, since our believe is that He has a physical body (and if you are examining our beliefs, you have to examine them in their own context) then His creation of spiritual children has to be very different from what we think about.

How so? the definition of ‘begotten’ is “'generated by procreations, “naturally begotten child” of parents and children; related by blood; biological child.” or …'engendered" or (according to the OED) 'procreated"

So we mean "begotten’ in the exact dictionary sense: Jesus Christ is the Only begotten Son of God in the flesh; He caused Mary to conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and thus is the Father of Jesus physically as well as spiritually. There are no semantic games being played here by US.

Why?

I guess the real question is, what does it mean to you? If, as you seem to be claiming, it does NOT mean that Jesus is the mortal Son of God, and if, as you are claiming in regard to the Trinity, Jesus is eternally co-equal with God, then how can Jesus be the Son of God in any fashion? You seem to be denying the idea that He was physically begotten of God in mortality, so…what then?

Well, your comparison sounds similar because you are comparing strawmen.

Precisely exact strawmen, at that.

Diana,

Wow this is interesting, and you’ve obviously thought this through to be able to reach the conclusions that you have, which defines your faith. I don’t believe most of it, because I believe Jesus is the Only begotten (not made) Son of the Father in His very nature, from all eternity.

Can we back up for a moment though? You’ve agreed in earlier conversation that God was always God. How does that reconcile with your beliefs about Eternal Progression? According to LDS theology, God the Father was once a man like us. How can it be then, that He was always God? Whatever your answer was before, it must not have helped me understand your position.

I’m thinking the words always and only might mean something entirely different to you than they do to me.

 

[truthsilence]

Diana,

I’m thinking more about this statement of yours: “Jesus Christ is the Only begotten Son of God in the flesh”.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God, has come in the flesh. He emptied himself, took the form of a servant and assumed human nature in order to accomplish our salvation.

Are you saying something more than this when you say “the Only begotten Son of God in the flesh”?

 

[web2009]

I don’t want to get things to fractured, but I do have another question I’d like to toss out.

My understanding is that the Mormon Church believes that the Bible contains errors. Is that True?

If it is True, does the Mormon Church publish a list of what these errors are?

Peace
James

Hi James,
I was a mormon for 22 years, am still officially on record as a member, but left them 5 years ago in pursuit of the truth, and at this point it has led me here.

Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as it is accurately translated. By the time we received the KJV, it had been translated 32 times, and allegedly lends itself to human error. The book of mormon, they proclaim was translated directly under the instruction of God, and contains no error.

Erica

 

[web2009]

Hi James,
I was a mormon for 22 years, am still officially on record as a member, but left them 5 years ago in pursuit of the truth, and at this point it has led me here.

Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as it is accurately translated. By the time we received the KJV, it had been translated 32 times, and allegedly lends itself to human error. The book of mormon, they proclaim was translated directly under the instruction of God, and contains no error.

Erica

 

[MEgus]

We do understand the concept of Heirachy in priesthood. As an example it is a Bishop who ordains Priests - not other Priests. It is the Pope who selects Bishops and Cardinals etc. That is not an issue.

I will try to read through the info you’ve provided as soon as I can.

IN the meantime I am still waiting for an answer to my question about what would happen if the LDS Apostles were all to die simutanously in some contastrophe.

Also I’d like to know how often the LDS believe the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored.

Peace
James

I guess if all those with the Priesthood keys were killed at once that the Lord would have to send Peter, James, and John back again to confer them upon a leader who the Lord chose.

In no way could the Stake Presidents or Bishops get together and ordain someone to be an Apostle. Only Apostles can ordain someone as an Apostle.

MEgus

 

[dianaiad]

We do understand the concept of Heirachy in priesthood. As an example it is a Bishop who ordains Priests - not other Priests. It is the Pope who selects Bishops and Cardinals etc. That is not an issue.

I will try to read through the info you’ve provided as soon as I can.

IN the meantime I am still waiting for an answer to my question about what would happen if the LDS Apostles were all to die simutanously in some contastrophe.

Also I’d like to know how often the LDS believe the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored.

Peace
James

I would hope very hard that that does not happen. If it does, then I guess that Jesus Christ and His Father would have to come to someone in the lower echelons and fix it, but that’s what it would take.

 

[majick275]

I guess if all those with the Priesthood keys were killed at once that the Lord would have to send Peter, James, and John back again to confer them upon a leader who the Lord chose.

In no way could the Stake Presidents or Bishops get together and ordain someone to be an Apostle. Only Apostles can ordain someone as an Apostle.

MEgus

and yet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery led the LDS church as “first and second elder” for quite some time. When were they ordained apostles?

 

[RAR]

As the “Can the Mormon Church be the True Church” thread has gotten a bit crazy since I was last on, I am starting a new one to ask a couple of questions.

NOTE – To anyone who wishes to Post Here, Please Keep this thread on the topic of What Mormon’s Actually Believe and is Documented. We, as Catholics, get rightfully frustrated when others “tell us” what we “believe”. Let us use the same courtesy to others. Mormon Beliefs can be found readily on line. One Place is HERE.

I was discussing the idea of the Keys being withdrawn from earth because there were no more “Apostles”. That is, there was no longer a valid “Priesthood”.
This is taken from the Mormon Publication “The Restoration” on page 8 where it says, “With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again.”

Now suffice it to say that I find this to be an extraordinary statement. But let’s look at it a bit. The Mormon position is that, the Apostles failed, or did not, call additional Apostles and this resulted in the loss of the “Valid Priesthood”. But why should it?

First of all, what does the term “Apostle”, mean. Does it mean “One who receives revelation? No it does not. It means one who is sent forth. Did Jesus only send the twelve? Again, no He did not. On the great mission during Jesus lifetime he sent out 70, including the twelve, in pairs… So obviously His power was not restricted to the twelve.
Again, if we look at Pentecost, does the Holy Spirit come only to the twelve? No. For it says in Acts 2:1 that, “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Does “all” mean just the twelve Apostles? Not according to a previous Statement in Acts 1: 13-15 we get a number at around 120 of faithful disciples gathered in the upper room.

So Now if we look at Acts2:1-4 we see
“1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the R55 whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

This seems to fly in the face of the Mormon belief that Revelation through the Holy Spirit of God was limited only to those called Apostles.

Add to this the fact that, when the Apostles layed hands on anyone, they invoked the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name. It is inconceivable that The Apostolic power and mission died with the original Apostles.

I will add one more thing from the pamphlet “The Restoration”. It can be found almost verbatim HERE. IT says:

“This apostasy led to the formation of many churches with conflicting teachings. Without the full gospel or the priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures? and the principles and ordinances? of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth, and much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. The doctrines of faith? in Jesus Christ, repentance?, baptism?, and the gift of the Holy Ghost? became distorted or forgotten. Each generation inherited a state of apostasy, as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel. Some inspired people, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, recognized that practices and doctrines had been changed or lost and tried to reform the churches to which they belonged. Without the priesthood authority, however, Christ’s gospel could not be returned to its original form.

You’ll note that this skips completely over nearly 1500 years of Church History and goes refers directly to Luther and Calvin. It then states that these people were not successful so the Restoration waited until the 1830’s. That’s nearly 1700 years of Apostasy, which is longer than the time from the Exodus until the time of Christ’s birth.

Did God ever abandon Israel for such a time in the OT?
The answer is no. Did He chastise His people – Yes He did, but He never abandoned them.

So by Mormon belief, Christ abandoned His Church for 1700 years.

To me, this makes no logical sense when compared to the Old covenants an the Promises of Christ to the Apostles to Build a Church and to be with Her until the end of the Age.

Peace
James

You mention “logical sense,” but in my experience it seems Mormon’s won’t play that game - I’m afraid they’re blinded by their desire to be the new “God’s chosen people” and they can’t face the idea that they’ve been born into (or led into) a farce.

Rebecca, Bart, Paul, others here - God bless you for having sought Truth!

May the good Lord bless all of His children with the eyes to see.

RAR

 

[MEgus]

and yet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery led the LDS church as “first and second elder” for quite some time. When were they ordained apostles?

Yes, the office of Apostle is an Elder. First Elder would be the President.

And Peter, James and John were Apostles.

And everything Joseph did, he did under the direction of the Savior in relation to the Church.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

You mention “logical sense,” but in my experience it seems Mormon’s won’t play that game - I’m afraid they’re blinded by their desire to be the new “God’s chosen people” and they can’t face the idea that they’ve been born into (or led into) a farce.

Rebecca, Bart, Paul, others here - God bless you for having sought Truth!

May the good Lord bless all of His children with the eyes to see.

RAR

RAR, in your opinion I suppose. My whole purpose is to know God’s will and seek to do it. Nothing more.

I too will echo your comments, “May the good Lord bless all of His children with the eyes to see.” and that goes for all of us.

The day we decide we know it all is the day we begin to fall away.

MEgus

 

[RAR]

The day we decide we know it all is the day we begin to fall away.

MEgus

Agreed - live your faith, live it well, be a man with your eye to heaven. A man who proclaims a new gospel proclaims his own pride.

RAR

 

[PaulDupre]

James and Paul,

I can see why the beliefs you have would indicate to you a continuation of the Priesthood.

It seems that to you, priesthood is priesthood and that anyone who is given it also has the authority to give to another and so it would continue that way.

Nice straw man, but that is not what we said and not what we believe. Only the pope can authorize the ordination of a bishop, only bishops can ordain a bishop and only a bishop can ordain priests and deacons.

How you can think that God is so impotent as to be unable to protect his Church is scandalous. But that’s the result when you believe that God is just a man.

 

[PaulDupre]

I guess if all those with the Priesthood keys were killed at once that the Lord would have to send Peter, James, and John back again to confer them upon a leader who the Lord chose.

In no way could the Stake Presidents or Bishops get together and ordain someone to be an Apostle. Only Apostles can ordain someone as an Apostle.

MEgus

So why didn’t the Lord send Peter, James and John back to rescue the church when (as you believe) all the apostles were killed in the first century?

 

[dianaiad]

So why didn’t the Lord send Peter, James and John back to rescue the church when (as you believe) all the apostles were killed in the first century?

Good question.

He just didn’t.