Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[ricko]

Rick,

What seems to be “Facts” to you is not.

We still, today, speak in terms of thee and thou and thy when we are speaking of sacred, spiritual things and when talking to our Father in Heaven.

There is nothing sinister in using language of a spiritual nature to describe spiritual things, even if some want to make it so.

MEgus

But they ARE facts. The verses in my post #566 are not opinions they are actual verses from the KJV and the BOM. Some are identical to the letter. The LDS say that God gave the translation to Joseph Smith. It is illogical to assume that God had to go to the KJV and pluck verses from it to put in the BOM. And if it was God who was doing this, why did he only use the KJV that Joseph Smith had? Why not a later version say in this century? One of your Mormon friends says that the KJV was the language used at that time, that’s not true, no one spoke the Kings English in 1830. Another Mormon said that JS put those verses from the KJV into the BOM cause he was more familiar with them. What?! Smith did not like God’s rendition so he put the KJV in its place? You guys are stumbling all over yourselves trying to defend a falsehood that you can’t get your stories straight. It takes only a little common sense to see that the BOM is an invention of Joseph Smith. The facts, not opinions, are overwhelming against the BOM.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Why is kneeling in church a requirement for salvation? Why are crucifixes required?

As to confession, we confess…to our Father in Heaven, or if the sin is something that we feel requires it, to our bishop. Repentance is personal.

As for me, I don’t kneel in church and very glad I am that I don’t have to. In fact, I wouldn’t kneel in church if I were a practicing and devout Catholic; it would take four altar boys and a monk to get me back up again, and that would be embarrassing. Not to mention that in the meantime my knees would be screaming at me too loudly for me to get a decent ‘amen’ out. Not through lack of faith, in other words, but purely as a practical matter. Arthritic knees (even those replaced with pure titanium) don’t take well to contact with the ground.

But Alisha? You claim that your husband is a Mormon. As a result, I find that your questions are a bit on the disingenuous side; you have GOT to know better.

Diana, I do not talk about religion with him at all. He is not reasonable whatsoever! I love him, but until I understand his religion, and get a better understanding of mine, I will wait to ask him questions. There are a lot of Catholics who can not kneel, so you would never be looked upon in a bad way at all! Most of the elderly do a half way kneel if any at all. We do it to show our adoration to Jesus because he is so great, we are his servants and should kneel to humble ourselves to him.

 

[dianaiad]

Hellp Dianaiad,

I appreciate the warm manner you have offered your perspective.
I will do my best to return that same courtesy

Are you suggesting that Polygamy ( and Polyandry ) was properly practiced in JS time ?? ( That it was run by the women ?? )

Not as often as it should have been, no…which I think is one of the reasons it was discontinued. That it WAS practiced properly in many families I do know; I have my own family diaries and journals. As I mentioned, living polygamy the way it should be lived is HARD. Not many men could do it. I think that WOMEN could…mostly, but not the men.

Are you also suggesting that the Polygamy practiced by JS went down like your contribution " JS prophetized it, Women then were able to pray about it to recieve Holy Ghost confirmation, then after that, gladly participated ??

Thanks for the consideration
Peace,
CJ

In many cases, you betcha. Quite often, however…not. Which, as I have already mentioned, was a problem. Men can’t handle the situation. They try to take control and make it all about ‘harems,’ and that’s not the way it is SUPPOSED to work.

Let me describe the way it worked for one of my great grandmothers: she was the second wife of four total. Until the men all got arrested and the families were broken apart, her family lived together in a large farmhouse near Logan, Utah. The first wife was an accomplished pianist and musician. She and her husband met my g-grandmother when her wagon train was settling in, and G-grandpa and wife #1 discussed the matter–and proposed to G-grandma together. She accepted, and moved in. G-Grandma had very little education, and the two women spent a great deal of time in the library, teaching and learning. G-Grandma became a poet and an author. Wife # 3 came along about two years later; she was proposed as an addition by wife #1, who talked to wife #2–and together they went to G-Grandpa about it, and sent him courting. He wasn’t all that thrilled with the idea. Wife #3, was heading back east to get a medical degree. Before she got back two years later, wife #4 was added, BY THE WOMEN. She was studying for her law degree.

So, for about seven years, the family consisted of a doctor who could freely practice her calling, an author who could write when and what she wished, a lawyer who was very active in her community, and one woman who played concerts all over Utah. G-Grandpa was a farmer/rancher. Between them, they had quite a family; someone was always home, and all were able to fullfill all their talents. They lived, if not wealthily, then well. The women were happy. The children were happy. G-Grandpa was, if a bit harried, then still happy.

Until the feds came in and broke up the families–and put him in jail.

A certain…bitterness…against those who turn up their noses at something they don’t understand remains.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, I do not talk about religion with him at all. He is not reasonable whatsoever! I love him, but until I understand his religion, and get a better understanding of mine, I will wait to ask him questions. There are a lot of Catholics who can not kneel, so you would never be looked upon in a bad way at all! Most of the elderly do a half way kneel if any at all. We do it to show our adoration to Jesus because he is so great, we are his servants and should kneel to humble ourselves to him.

By ‘not reasonable’ do you mean that he isn’t willing to agree with you that everything he believes in is bunkum, weird and something out of the 'manual of crazy cults?"

Try…asking him to invite the missionaries over, and then try listening with some courtesy and respect–if not for what they believe, but THAT they believe it. You love him…but you seem to be forgetting that his Mormonism is part of what made him the man you love. You need to understand that and not treat his beliefs as if they were something to love him in spite of.

You need to be willing to treat his beliefs with the respect they deserve, so that he can treat yours with the respect YOURS deserves. Get to a place where you can talk openly about them, joke about them…get comfortable about them. Right now you come across as someone who is ashamed of your husband, and quite frankly, if he’s not willing to talk to you about his beliefs, he may well think you are ashamed of him, too.

I’ve seen a few Mormon/other religion marriages that have worked well, and while each one is different, there is one thing they all have in common; while they may not AGREE with each other regarding their beliefs, they respect each other’s faith. You don’t respect your husband’s faith, quite obviously. Why should he talk to you about it?

 

[mfbukowski]

How can LDS argue with that at all! Those verses are almost identical!!

You don’t understand. They are supposed to be identical. There is no problem with them being identical. We have answered this many times, and you are not understanding the argument.

Just know that it is ok that they are identical ok? It doesn’t hurt our position at all.

 

[CJ_Nick]

Not as often as it should have been, no…which I think is one of the reasons it was discontinued.

Hi again dianaad,

Thanks for the reply as well as sharing some of your very personal family history

A few remarks, if I may.

It is not ( In my humble opinion ) that some don’t " understand " the practice of Polygamy that causes bitterness. It is because some do not believe he was commanded by God to do such and believe that secretly, shamefully, and selfishly practiced Polygamy and Polyandry with many very young ladies.

I would suggest that Emma Smith held a different view than you and was not the one who was in charge ( didn’t even know about it until several wives into said practice.)

At any rate, we can agree to disagree with much of it and I do appreciate you sharing your family stories ( A very different practice of Polygamy than the one JS practiced , IMHO )

Peace,
CJ

 

[mfbukowski]

What if your “prophet” said that all Mormons (LDS) had to start practicing polygamy again, would you do it? If your doctrine says to have multiple wives, why don’t y’all practice it now?

I am sure your husband loves you very much, so don’t worry about it ok? You have nothing to fear.

 

[mfbukowski]

What if your “prophet” said that all Mormons (LDS) had to start practicing polygamy again, would you do it? If your doctrine says to have multiple wives, why don’t y’all practice it now?

This post 576 and post 574 are identical. Please don’t worry about it. You husband loves you and won’t ever be asked to become polygamous

 

[mfbukowski]

Well Mr. Ski likes to say that God put it in a language that they were familiar with and was used everyday. Funny how that language he says everyone used turns out to be the Kings English from accross the ocean and 200 years old and is identical to the KJV of 1611. Also funny that it is not in the King James Versions after Joseph Smiths time isn’t it? Can you just see the people in the 19th century speaking “thee” and “thou”? If you want to really know what the language was like back then, you can read the Declaration of Independence and you will see that is written not in the Kings English but in the language that we use today.

P.S. Has anyone noticed that when I post facts not flattering to the LDS that one Mormon starts spitting out words like “stupid” and “ignorant”? As the bible, (the REAL bible) says “it’s what comes out of the mouth that defiles a person”

Joseph felt it was best to use King James English to translate the bible. We still use thee and thou in our prayers and are taught to do so.

I apologize for saying those things about you. I should not have.

 

[mfbukowski]

Oh ok, I see. So, if the Prophet says that God told him to put it into effect again in todays time, than you would be the “Head Wife” and your husband would have children with other women? In order for the church to grow larger? When did God command it to be stopped? What year, and do you have the article or whatever it would be called where the Prophet told everyone to stop it? Sorry if I’m not making much since when I asked the latter, but I don’t know what it is called when the prophet of your church tells the members of the prohecy he received. Do the prophets today talk directly to God? Sorry, I’m trying to understand more…

It was typically only high leaders who practiced polgamy and you husband has not been active for years. Even if in the extremely unlikely event that the prophet told us to practice polygamy again, it is not likely your husband would be called to do so. That’s a double “extremely unlikely”. You have nothing to fear.

 

[mfbukowski]

A more cogent question is this: If we take verses from the New Testament and find almost identical ones in the Book of Mormon, does that make the Book of Mormon a fraud?

Consider these two passages:

… and the parallel passage from the BOM:

We all know that the Nephites did not have access to the New Testament. So why does Moroni quote St. Paul, from the KJV of the New Testament?

Yes, I know the standard LDS answer - “St. Paul and Moroni both received the same message by revelation.” It just seems strange to non-Mormons that there are so many quotes from the New Testament in the BOM. It strains credulity.

BTW, I do not argue the quotation of OT passages that the BOM claims the Nephites had on the brass plates of Laban. That would be reasonable if Nephites existed and they had the brass plates. But the quotes and paraphrases of the NT in the BOM always seemed unlikely to me, even when I was LDS.

Dude. That is the way Joseph translated it- with familiar language. Similar message=similar language. Do you think that he thought no one would notice? What kind of a “fraud” does things like that? “OH- I’ll just put some direct quotes from the bible in here- no one will notice” Give me a break.

I can expect this from these folks on this forum who are uninformed but this is just deliberate distortion on your part. No excuse. This has been answered a zillion times. You are deliberately distorting this and you know it. Look up “perdition” in the standard works. But you don’t have to. You already know.

 

[mfbukowski]

Not as often as it should have been, no…which I think is one of the reasons it was discontinued. That it WAS practiced properly in many families I do know; I have my own family diaries and journals. As I mentioned, living polygamy the way it should be lived is HARD. Not many men could do it. I think that WOMEN could…mostly, but not the men.

In many cases, you betcha. Quite often, however…not. Which, as I have already mentioned, was a problem. Men can’t handle the situation. They try to take control and make it all about ‘harems,’ and that’s not the way it is SUPPOSED to work.

Let me describe the way it worked for one of my great grandmothers: she was the second wife of four total. Until the men all got arrested and the families were broken apart, her family lived together in a large farmhouse near Logan, Utah. The first wife was an accomplished pianist and musician. She and her husband met my g-grandmother when her wagon train was settling in, and G-grandpa and wife #1 discussed the matter–and proposed to G-grandma together. She accepted, and moved in. G-Grandma had very little education, and the two women spent a great deal of time in the library, teaching and learning. G-Grandma became a poet and an author. Wife # 3 came along about two years later; she was proposed as an addition by wife #1, who talked to wife #2–and together they went to G-Grandpa about it, and sent him courting. He wasn’t all that thrilled with the idea. Wife #3, was heading back east to get a medical degree. Before she got back two years later, wife #4 was added, BY THE WOMEN. She was studying for her law degree.

So, for about seven years, the family consisted of a doctor who could freely practice her calling, an author who could write when and what she wished, a lawyer who was very active in her community, and one woman who played concerts all over Utah. G-Grandpa was a farmer/rancher. Between them, they had quite a family; someone was always home, and all were able to fullfill all their talents. They lived, if not wealthily, then well. The women were happy. The children were happy. G-Grandpa was, if a bit harried, then still happy.

Until the feds came in and broke up the families–and put him in jail.

A certain…bitterness…against those who turn up their noses at something they don’t understand remains.

I can verify this. I am a convert, but my wife’s family handled it the same way. I met my wife’s grandmother who told stories of her father in jail and going to see her “aunties” who were former polygamous wives, and how much fun she had with all her half brothers and sisters.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Until the feds came in and broke up the families–and put him in jail.

A certain…bitterness…against those who turn up their noses at something they don’t understand remains.

There are consequences for sins and criminal behavior. And yes, we should turn from sin, including with our noses.

 

[PaulDupre]

Dude. That is the way Joseph translated it- with familiar language. Similar message=similar language. Do you think that he thought no one would notice? What kind of a “fraud” does things like that?

The same kind of fraud that doesn’t bother to check whether wheat, barley, linen, horses and chariots existed in the Americas prior to 1492.

“OH- I’ll just put some direct quotes from the bible in here- no one will notice” Give me a break.

“OH- I’ll just take this common Egyptian funerary document from the 1st century AD and claim that it is a sacred text written by the hand of Abraham himself” Give me a break.

I can expect this from these folks on this forum who are uninformed but this is just deliberate distortion on your part. No excuse. This has been answered a zillion times. You are deliberately distorting this and you know it. Look up “perdition” in the standard works. But you don’t have to. You already know.

What, exactly, did I distort? I quoted the bible, I quoted the BOM, and I asked a question. I even gave you Isaiah. And still you feel the need to insult and accuse me?

Paul (son of perdition)

 

[MEgus]

Meg, I’m not trying to prove the Bible! The Bible proves itself. The Book of Mormon is having a lot harder of a time being proved.

How about if I show you what the Lord said on this subject.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

 

[MEgus]

A more cogent question is this: If we take verses from the New Testament and find almost identical ones in the Book of Mormon, does that make the Book of Mormon a fraud?

Consider these two passages:

… and the parallel passage from the BOM:

We all know that the Nephites did not have access to the New Testament. So why does Moroni quote St. Paul, from the KJV of the New Testament?

Yes, I know the standard LDS answer - “St. Paul and Moroni both received the same message by revelation.” It just seems strange to non-Mormons that there are so many quotes from the New Testament in the BOM. It strains credulity.

BTW, I do not argue the quotation of OT passages that the BOM claims the Nephites had on the brass plates of Laban. That would be reasonable if Nephites existed and they had the brass plates. But the quotes and paraphrases of the NT in the BOM always seemed unlikely to me, even when I was LDS.

I still don’t understand why it’s such a problem for you guys, after all, who is it that spoke to all these men?

If God speaks to us, and it’s the same God, and he teaches us the things we need as his children, wouldn’t they be the same things? So, if he teaches you a principal, and also me the same one, and we both share what he has taught us, wouldn’t we use similar words to describe it?

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Sorry Meg…LOL I guess I was thinking your name was Megan…and your username was short for it LOL Didn’t realize you were a man…I’m sooo sorry…

No problem. I’m not offended at all.

It’s actually Mike. A friend started calling me Megel and then later changed it to Me Gus and the nickname stuck.

I sign ME and then gus for the pronunciation purpose.

MEgus

 

[PaulDupre]

I still don’t understand why it’s such a problem for you guys, after all, who is it that spoke to all these men?

If God speaks to us, and it’s the same God, and he teaches us the things we need as his children, wouldn’t they be the same things? So, if he teaches you a principal, and also me the same one, and we both share what he has taught us, wouldn’t we use similar words to describe it?

MEgus

Like I said, the standard Mormon answer.

Similar, maybe, but word for word straight from the KJV?

 

[ricko]

I still don’t understand why it’s such a problem for you guys, after all, who is it that spoke to all these men?

If God speaks to us, and it’s the same God, and he teaches us the things we need as his children, wouldn’t they be the same things? So, if he teaches you a principal, and also me the same one, and we both share what he has taught us, wouldn’t we use similar words to describe it?

MEgus

Similar message maybe but not the exact same words (from the KJV) seeing how the bible was written by men guided by the Holy Spirit, but they wrote in their own style and method and words. But like the JWs have been caught in many glaring errors and they changed their teachings (in Louisiana we call it crawfishing) so also with the Mormon church. See below:
The LDS Church now concedes that Smith used the King James Bible as one of his primary sources when it came to extended quotes from the Bible.52 The long passages quoted from Isaiah as well as from Malachi and other books of the Bible have **forced **them to this admission. This causes a problem, because the official position of the Church for many years was that the Urim and Thummim which accompanied the golden plates was the exclusive means of translation and that every word of the Book of Mormon was divinely translated.53

Since they have been proven wrong on their teaching of this they now take a new approach and claim “it’s not a problem” My question is Are they awake in the Temple?

 

[ricko]

Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth (History of the Church, 4:461).

Translated by God Himself through Joseph Smith by seer stones. The BOM states:

“And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.” Alma 34:36

But the prophet Smith says: “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” D&C 130:3

If the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, then why the contradictions?