Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you for the explanation…but you just did it again. I didn’t say that you should ‘feel disrespected.’ I said that it would be disrespect in the eyes of God because of the motives involved. He would know that it was me being disrespectful. Other people could do it without being disrespectful or irreverent, and I even said that I could imagine a time when I could–without being disrespectful. However, not at that time or place.

Fine, I don’t believe this either.

I once attended a Temple session where someone had smuggled a camera in to take pictures. Those pictures went up on a website later, along with some very denigrating (and false) commentary. I didn’t ‘feel’ disrespected during the session, even though that person was being blatantly disrespectful. He did everything the rest of us did…how were we supposed to know? I may even have shaken his hand or spoken with him quietly sometime during the session; I’ll never know. The only way I did eventually know was that he later told the world that this is exactly what he was doing.

(grin)

A rosary is not a secret temple ceremony.

Let me tell you from my perspective. When I was an atheist and started attending mass, I would sit there thinking that me being there, was really messing it up for everyone else. I didn’t believe what anyone there believed. I didn’t recite the creed with everyone, because when I read it, I didn’t believe a word of it. Starting with, “We believe in One God”.

I was trying to understand faith, and God, and I saw people at Mass understood this. Some days, I would just sit, none of the kneel, stand, shake people’s hands. I didn’t want to mess it up for everyone else.

I would watch people, I would see people deep in prayer, I would see the kids poking each other and kneeling with their families in the pew. I could see they belonged there, and that I did not. A former Mormon turned atheist, there alone, trying to understand God. What was I thinking?

Then one day, Msgr.'s homily was about belonging with God. He said that we all belong with God, everyone. That there were people at Mass who were further along in their journey, but that we all struggled at times. Regardless of where we are in our journeys, we belong with God. We belong at Mass.

My journey with God had just begun. I just put a foot on His path, and here was Msgr., telling us this is where I belonged. After that, I went to Mass knowing that it is where I belonged. I knew that I did. And after a year or so of going to Mass, and studying, learning, getting through some major struggles, I knew that I was going to be baptized.

This is all I’m telling you. This is Catholic belief. Everyone belongs at Mass. Everyone belongs with God. Even the person who has the worst of intentions, belongs there.

Mary is a person who understands this. She is the first convert to God’s Church, but unlike the rest of us who struggle, she did not. She is our example, our guiding star. Just like you go to a friend’s mother who is an example of who you want to be and where it is in your life you would like to be, we go to the Mother of God, Mary.

Well, ‘strong’ may be problematic, but outspoken? Yeah, the both of us are that.

I’ll make you a deal; I’ll try to write more clearly, and you, if you think I have written something that completely makes you nuts, will reread it and make certain I actually wrote what you think I did.

Might make our exchanges duller, but more productive.

deal

 

[ricko]

The BOM is the most correct book per JS. Translated by God Himself through JS using a “seer stone” with JS’s head stuck in a hat containing the “seer stone” An image would then appear in the hat of the plate with the translation, JS would then dictate the translation. When the translation was completed and correct, then and only then would a new image appear. Yet, there have been about 4,000 corrections to the BOM. Even with God being involved it could not be done right the first time.

Now the LDS claim they are the “restored church” as the God of the bible failed in his promise to protect His church. Through Joseph Smith, who is also a prophet, the church was restored and is now equipped to save all who believe in its teachings. Here is a list of the teachings of the BOM and the “prophet” Smith

God has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130:22)
God is a spirit. (Alma 18:26-28)

There are many gods. (TJS 370-373)
There is only one God. (Alma 11:28-30)

Those who do not accept the gospel in this life will have the opportunity to do so after death, and can receive baptism by proxy (D&C 127, 128)
Salvation must be attained in this life; after one dies it is too late (Alma 34:34, 2 Nephi 9:38, Mosiah 2:36-39). No mention of baptism for the dead.

David and Solomon did nothing wrong by having many wives. (D&C 132:38-39)
The polygamy of David and Solomon was “abominable” to the Lord (Jacob 2:24)

The “first resurrection” is only for the righteous. (D&C 76:64
The “first resurrection” is for all who died before Christ’s resurrection, righteous and unrighteous alike (Mosiah 15:24

The Lord’s Supper (“the sacrament”) consists of bread and water.
The Lord’s Supper should consist of bread and wine. (3 Nephi

The church teaches that faith, repentance, baptism are the “first principles” of the gospel, but that in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven, much more is required (obedience, tithes, endowment, etc.)
Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to hell 3 Nephi 11:31-40

What a dilemma! Who do you believe, the God of the BOM or the God of Joseph Smith? This is the church that is supposed to lead us to heaven?

 

[mfbukowski]

. And now we’re planning on lamb for Easter.

Never heard of that one before. I don’t know if I like that idea or not. Sounds a little like making dinner into the eucharist or something? Eating the Lamb of God?

 

[mfbukowski]

Hi mfbukowski,

I realize a am a very new member here and have jumped in this thread a little late.

This contribution is rather confusing to me.

If I may ask, you find NO TRUTH in Catholicism because of the perspectives some Catholics have on the practices and behavior of your first prophet, JS ???

Would you suggest that I go on an LDS board and see what members there share on Catholicism to measure and find if there is ANY TRUTH in the LDS faith??
A rather odd way of finding truth, IMHO.

At any rate, I would be happy to extend my Catholic hand of friendship to you.

Peace,
CJ

Thanks CJ
No it’s a long story… was originally Catholic, had problems with the beliefs, found Mormonism, had no problems with the beliefs, came back here to see if I was missing anything in Catholicism, found no one here with any answers that made sense, and couldn’t answer the questions I orignally had anyway. I think you will probably ask to help with those questions, but I will probably pass on the opportunity. But thanks for your friendship. I have a history with virtually everyone here and it’s usually not pretty. And I am not to say it was necessarily their faults either.

What usually happens is that it all starts out civil then eventually gets ugly.

But again, thanks for asking.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I was listening to a Bible/Sacrament CD, and the most eye opening, reassuring thing I have ever heard about the Catholic Faith was:
Malachi 1:11 !!! How awesome is that!! God foretold his church in the Old Testament. There is always a Mass going on every hour, of every single day! There is incense and a pure grain offering included in everyone of those masses that are held everyday at all times of the day, from sunrise to sunset at all times! We have a mass 7 days a week, we have a Pure grain offering (the Eucharist we receive after we repent ='s pure grain offering) God is great! I feel so happy about having heard that, I couldn’t even express my happiness the way it should be expressed!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Never heard of that one before. I don’t know if I like that idea or not. Sounds a little like making dinner into the eucharist or something? Eating the Lamb of God?

It is dinner, bbq’d most likely. As a convert, I was unaware that there is so much food associated to everything under the sun that is Catholic. Lamb is associated to Easter, for obvious reasons.

Certainly the association is to the Passover, where a lamb is sacrificed and eaten. Which Passover, Christ instituted Himself in place of, commanding us to eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, as the sacrifice is not complete unless the offering is eaten.

This happens at Holy Communion, not my backyard bbq.

edit to add, link to EWTN Feast & Season, recipes for Lent

 

[CJ_Nick]

But thanks for your friendship.

.

Hi again mfbukowski

You are most welcome ( seems to me that the least we can do as " claimed " followers of Christ is to offer eachother our hand in friendship, regardless of our histories or current place in our journeys)

As to the rest of your post to me:::: fair enough my friend

Peace,
CJ

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

The BOM is the most correct book per JS. Translated by God Himself through JS using a “seer stone” with JS’s head stuck in a hat containing the “seer stone” An image would then appear in the hat of the plate with the translation, JS would then dictate the translation. When the translation was completed and correct, then and only then would a new image appear. Yet, there have been about 4,000 corrections to the BOM. Even with God being involved it could not be done right the first time.

Now the LDS claim they are the “restored church” as the God of the bible failed in his promise to protect His church. Through Joseph Smith, who is also a prophet, the church was restored and is now equipped to save all who believe in its teachings. Here is a list of the teachings of the BOM and the “prophet” Smith

God has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130:22)
God is a spirit. (Alma 18:26-28)

There are many gods. (TJS 370-373)
There is only one God. (Alma 11:28-30)

Those who do not accept the gospel in this life will have the opportunity to do so after death, and can receive baptism by proxy (D&C 127, 128)
Salvation must be attained in this life; after one dies it is too late (Alma 34:34, 2 Nephi 9:38, Mosiah 2:36-39). No mention of baptism for the dead.

David and Solomon did nothing wrong by having many wives. (D&C 132:38-39)
The polygamy of David and Solomon was “abominable” to the Lord (Jacob 2:24)

The “first resurrection” is only for the righteous. (D&C 76:64
The “first resurrection” is for all who died before Christ’s resurrection, righteous and unrighteous alike (Mosiah 15:24

The Lord’s Supper (“the sacrament”) consists of bread and water.
The Lord’s Supper should consist of bread and wine. (3 Nephi

The church teaches that faith, repentance, baptism are the “first principles” of the gospel, but that in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven, much more is required (obedience, tithes, endowment, etc.)
Christ says that the gospel is faith, repentance, baptism ONLY. Any teaching beyond that will lead to hell 3 Nephi 11:31-40

What a dilemma! Who do you believe, the God of the BOM or the God of Joseph Smith? This is the church that is supposed to lead us to heaven?

Was it like a magical stone, like a crystal ball or something, but instead of crystal, it was a stone? Sounds scary!

 

[dianaiad]

I know that God instructed Moses and Aaron to put the blood of the lamb on the houses so God would see the blood and not destroy them with the plague because the blood was their sign to God. Now that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we use a crucifix in the same way because Jesus saved us and died for our sins, so we show him a cross on our door. (sorry if I don’t make since, but sometimes it’s hard to put into words what’s in my head) (Im referring to Exodus 12:13)

And you do not have to defend that practice to me. Alisha. You have every right to live your religion as you see fit.

The question was, what if, because you DID do this, the government decided that you were an unfit parent and yanked your kids away?

Sorry Diana, I don’t know what point you are trying to make with this story. Could you give me some more details? (I really am sorry, but I didn’t understand the story. Sometimes I think you think I’m being sarcastic when I’m answering you, but it’s hard when your writing and, not speaking to someone, but I promise I am not sarcastic at all! If you and I were talking (voice to voice), you would know (by my tone) that I’m not that way at all!! Sometimes when I write, it sounds like I’m being sarcastic, when I truly am not. I really didn’t understand it.)

Ok…

It’s like this: I told a story about my g-grandparents, who lived a polygamous life, and were very happy in it; the four women were not only wives and mothers, one was a physician, one a lawyer, one a respected musician and one a writer and poet. They were all able to do this and raise ten children between them BECAUSE they lived in a polygamous household.

It’s like…now a man can have a career all his life; he doesn’t have to quit work because he is pregnant, or raising children; he has a wife who will do that. She will interrupt her career to raise the kids…or else they will put 'em in day care and nobody will raise them. My G-grandmothers were able to have it all the way modern feminists claim all women should be able to have it all (and can’t, not really.)

Now, women have to choose. My G-grandmothers didn’t have to. However, because OTHER people, who lived very far away, believing different things, decided that my g-grandparents had no right to live their religion in the way they thought best, arrested G-granddad, broke the families apart, and the physician, the lawyer, the musician and the author became struggling single mothers who spent the rest of their lives in poverty and in hiding.

It would be like me taking your children away from you because I don’t believe in hanging crucifixes upon my wall–and then blaming the resulting harm to those children upon you because you weren’t living according to MY beliefs.

 

[dianaiad]

Fine, I don’t believe this either.

Up to you, of course.

But…shouldn’t the guy doing the insulting be able to decide if he is, actually, intending to insult someone?

A rosary is not a secret temple ceremony.

No. But they are both sacred to the people who participate in them, are they not? By the way, that’s “sacred,” not ‘secret.’ I mean really–just how secret can you call a ceremony that is in the congressional record–and that WE put there?

Let me tell you from my perspective. When I was an atheist and started attending mass, I would sit there thinking that me being there, was really messing it up for everyone else. I didn’t believe what anyone there believed. I didn’t recite the creed with everyone, because when I read it, I didn’t believe a word of it. Starting with, “We believe in One God”.

I was trying to understand faith, and God, and I saw people at Mass understood this. Some days, I would just sit, none of the kneel, stand, shake people’s hands. I didn’t want to mess it up for everyone else.

I would watch people, I would see people deep in prayer, I would see the kids poking each other and kneeling with their families in the pew. I could see they belonged there, and that I did not. A former Mormon turned atheist, there alone, trying to understand God. What was I thinking?

Then one day, Msgr.'s homily was about belonging with God. He said that we all belong with God, everyone. That there were people at Mass who were further along in their journey, but that we all struggled at times. Regardless of where we are in our journeys, we belong with God. We belong at Mass.

My journey with God had just begun. I just put a foot on His path, and here was Msgr., telling us this is where I belonged. After that, I went to Mass knowing that it is where I belonged. I knew that I did. And after a year or so of going to Mass, and studying, learning, getting through some major struggles, I knew that I was going to be baptized.

This is all I’m telling you. This is Catholic belief. Everyone belongs at Mass. Everyone belongs with God. Even the person who has the worst of intentions, belongs there.

Mary is a person who understands this. She is the first convert to God’s Church, but unlike the rest of us who struggle, she did not. She is our example, our guiding star. Just like you go to a friend’s mother who is an example of who you want to be and where it is in your life you would like to be, we go to the Mother of God, Mary.

deal

And you became comfortable at mass only when you began to accept the beliefs of those who held it, and then felt that you belonged there. Sounds pretty much like what I was saying, to me.

Rebecca, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I do not think that it is a good idea to actually pray prayers that we do not agree with. After all, a certain Daniel was sent to the lion’s den for refusing to utter words that he didn’t believe, and so were Shadrak, Meschak and Abednego. I believe that many of the first Christians were also martyred because they refused to say words that they did not believe.

I’m quite certain that those who invited these people to SAY them thought that it was quite acceptable for them to do so; they couldn’t understand why people would prefer death to mouthing words.

My reason for not saying the "apostle’s creed’ or the “Hail Mary” along with someone who is saying them with sincerity and real faith is because I think it is disrespectful to them. I don’t believe in the entirety of the apostle’s creed, nor in asking Mary to pray for me. It would be like me–taking communion after mass.

I believe it would be disrespectful. I also believe that it would be hypocritical. Therefore, I will not do it. I hope that if you come across someone who reacts in that manner, you will assume that they are refusing out of respect for your faith, and not vice versa.

 

[ricko]

Was it like a magical stone, like a crystal ball or something, but instead of crystal, it was a stone? Sounds scary!

Not just scary but sounds like witchcraft! That is what many people accused him of. Funny but he would get these seer stones from a well and use them to try and find money or gold before he found the so called golden plates. It appeared that he dabbled in the occult much like the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses did.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Up to you, of course.

But…shouldn’t the guy doing the insulting be able to decide if he is, actually, intending to insult someone?

Not really how it works. Most people feel insulted, when, the slight was not intended. Of course, there are rebel rousers who get off on being insulting.

No. But they are both sacred to the people who participate in them, are they not? By the way, that’s “sacred,” not ‘secret.’ I mean really–just how secret can you call a ceremony that is in the congressional record–and that WE put there?

They are secret. If you believe your temple ceremony and rosary are the same sacred, well then, start explaining. I have no problem telling you how to pray a rosary, because it isn’t secret.

And you became comfortable at mass only when you began to accept the beliefs of those who held it, and then felt that you belonged there. Sounds pretty much like what I was saying, to me.

No, I felt comfortable because someone told me I belonged there. I believed them about that. There was a whole list of things in the “do not believe” column. At that point, I had no intention whatsoever of being baptized.

Well, as I said, no one is trying to make you do anything. And no one is going to feed you to the lions for not saying a prayer.

I’m quite certain that those who invited these people to SAY them thought that it was quite acceptable for them to do so; they couldn’t understand why people would prefer death to mouthing words.

This is pretty amazing. You are comparing a Catholic praying a rosary, in their own home, to martyrs who were persecuted for their beliefs. Perhaps it is not your intention, but it is what you are saying.

My reason for not saying the "apostle’s creed’ or the “Hail Mary” along with someone who is saying them with sincerity and real faith is because I think it is disrespectful to them. I don’t believe in the entirety of the apostle’s creed, nor in asking Mary to pray for me. It would be like me–taking communion after mass.

I

believe it would be disrespectful. I also believe that it would be hypocritical. Therefore, I will not do it. I hope that if you come across someone who reacts in that manner, you will assume that they are refusing out of respect for your faith, and not vice versa.Well then, you understand why Christians will not pray to your false god.

 

[Tetiaroa]

I’m quite certain that those who invited these people to SAY them thought that it was quite acceptable for them to do so; they couldn’t understand why people would prefer death to mouthing words.

My reason for not saying the "apostle’s creed’ or the “Hail Mary” along with someone who is saying them with sincerity and real faith is because I think it is disrespectful to them. I don’t believe in the entirety of the apostle’s creed, nor in asking Mary to pray for me. It would be like me–taking communion after mass.

I believe it would be disrespectful. I also believe that it would be hypocritical. Therefore, I will not do it. I hope that if you come across someone who reacts in that manner, you will assume that they are refusing out of respect for your faith, and not vice versa.

Just for your information, the purpose of the creeds was to settle disagreements during the early life of the Church. The Apostle’s creed was created to settle the disagreement regarding Jesus being God and also human. The Nicene creed was created to settle the disagreement regarding the concept of the Trinity. This was the actual reason that the two creeds were established. Christians are not forced to say the creeds. Catholics recite the creed in agreement to what was settled in the early life of the Church. 1800 years later, some reformers and visionary claimers were trying to put back the same disagreement that was already settled. Fortunately, this time it was outside the Church.

Tet

 

[mfbukowski]

Was it like a magical stone, like a crystal ball or something, but instead of crystal, it was a stone? Sounds scary!

Check this out:

Revelation Ch 2: (Apocalypse)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a whitestone, and in the stone a new ename written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

What do you think that means?

 

[PaulDupre]

Check this out:

What do you think that means?

I guess the hidden manna is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus in the eucharist as confected in the Catholic Church.

What do you think?

 

[Stephen168]

Precisely. I originally came here looking to see if there was ANY truth in Catholicism, and now thanks to these fine folks I know there is NONE.

You know this is not true. I read your first post. You came here to straighten us out about Mormonism. You have been anti-catholic from the start.

 

[dianaiad]

Not really how it works. Most people feel insulted, when, the slight was not intended. Of course, there are rebel rousers who get off on being insulting.

They are secret. If you believe your temple ceremony and rosary are the same sacred, well then, start explaining. I have no problem telling you how to pray a rosary, because it isn’t secret.

No, I felt comfortable because someone told me I belonged there. I believed them about that. There was a whole list of things in the “do not believe” column. At that point, I had no intention whatsoever of being baptized.

Rebecca, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I do not think that it is a good idea to actually pray prayers that we do not agree with. After all, a certain Daniel was sent to the lion’s den for refusing to utter words that he didn’t believe, and so were Shadrak, Meschak and Abednego. I believe that many of the first Christians were also martyred because they refused to say words that they did not believe.

No. I was comparing ME praying the rosary in the home of a Catholic, to an early Christian who chose to say the words rather than die. Or more accurately, I was comparing the Catholic insisting that it was OK for the Mormon to pray the rosary is a little like the Romans who insisted that it was OK for the early Christians to, say…pray to Diana. After all, they are only words, right?

Well, no, they aren’t. Your faith and belief in those words make them much more than ‘just words.’ They deserve to be more than ‘just words.’ They mean something. They deserve enough respect from me to not say the parts I don’t believe.

As to the Temple ceremony…it’s out there. Secrets are not ‘out there’ ready for you to read, Rebecca. Secrets are not placed in the congressional record, easily available on the internet for you to look up, read and mock. “Sacred” means that I will not discuss them with you outside of Temple walls. Which, yeah, means that I won’t discuss them with you.

But you are quite free to go look the ceremonies up, discuss them with others all you want to. No black helicopters are going to be landing on your roof. Nobody is going to sue you. You can read, laugh and disparage them all you want to…just…not with me.

THAT is the difference between ‘secret’ and ‘sacred.’

Well then, you understand why Christians will not pray to your false god.

Not quite the same thing, Rebecca, and you know it.

The words “Our Father in Heaven” and “In the Name of Jesus Christ” are the same words used by pretty much everybody. YOU use them. When you use them you know/believe Who you are addressing when you do.

“Christians” who will not “pray to [our] false god” aren’t refusing to say words that they don’t believe in. They are not attempting to show respect for our beliefs. They are simply being particularly nasty jerks. I may not say the rosary, but I certainly acknowledge your faith and the appropriateness of YOUR saying it…and that God listens to your faith as you do.

After all, if God refused to listen to anybody who was wrong about exactly Who He is, none of us would get heard.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not quite the same thing, Rebecca, and you know it.

The words “Our Father in Heaven” and “In the Name of Jesus Christ” are the same words used by pretty much everybody. YOU use them. When you use them you know/believe Who you are addressing when you do.

“Christians” who will not “pray to [our] false god” aren’t refusing to say words that they don’t believe in. They are not attempting to show respect for our beliefs. They are simply being particularly nasty jerks. I may not say the rosary, but I certainly acknowledge your faith and the appropriateness of YOUR saying it…and that God listens to your faith as you do.

After all, if God refused to listen to anybody who was wrong about exactly Who He is, none of us would get heard.

No, it is Christians following the commandment, “thou shalt have no other gods before me”. God is not a man who worked up the ladder (as Joseph Smith describes in the King Follet sermon). God is not created. God is Triune, not three gods who worship other more glorified gods. It doesn’t matter that you have named your gods in a Christian manner. It is not the One God Who we worship.

You get offended by this, which only tells me, you expect that Mormons should be faithful to what they believe but everyone else are jerks for doing the same.

 

[mfbukowski]

I guess the hidden manna is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus in the eucharist as confected in the Catholic Church.

What do you think?

You know that I was talking about the stone-- you either avoided it as usual, or didn’t read the post, also as usual.

Talking to you is a waste.

 

[ricko]

You know that I was talking about the stone-- you either avoided it as usual, or didn’t read the post, also as usual.

Talking to you is a waste.

The white stone is the Book of the Living where the names of the redeemed are kept. Bet you thought it was Joseph Smith’s seer stone didnya?