Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[dianaiad]

No, it is Christians following the commandment, “thou shalt have no other gods before me”. God is not a man who worked up the ladder (as Joseph Smith describes in the King Follet sermon). God is not created. God is Triune, not three gods who worship other more glorified gods. It doesn’t matter that you have named your gods in a Christian manner. It is not the One God Who we worship.

You get offended by this, which only tells me, you expect that Mormons should be faithful to what they believe but everyone else are jerks for doing the same.

I am not offended when someone believes something else when they pray to 'Our Father…in heaven." Nor am I offended when someone ends a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, and is honestly convinced that the Jesus Christ they pray to/in the Name of is a very different one than the one we pray in the Name of.

What is offering offense is assuming that simply praying in my presence, using words that they use anyway, is somehow praying to the “Mormon god.”

they are offensive because they intend to be.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am not offended when someone believes something else when they pray to 'Our Father…in heaven." Nor am I offended when someone ends a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, and is honestly convinced that the Jesus Christ they pray to/in the Name of is a very different one than the one we pray in the Name of.

What is offering offense is assuming that simply praying in my presence, using words that they use anyway, is somehow praying to the “Mormon god.”

they are offensive because they intend to be.

You believe that is the intent. Is it impossible for you to fathom that people have religious convictions different from yours?

As I said, you can name your gods whatever you like, they are different than the One God that Christians worship. This is a fact, not an insult or slam, unless of course you take it that way.

 

[mfbukowski]

You believe that is the intent. Is it impossible for you to fathom that people have religious convictions different from yours?

As I said, you can name your gods whatever you like, they are different than the One God that Christians worship. This is a fact, not an insult or slam, unless of course you take it that way.

Nah, I always take assertions that I worship false gods as a friendly gesture. I sure you would too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nah, I always take assertions that I worship false gods as a friendly gesture. I sure you would too.

It is what it is. When you are worshiping something different.

I don’t really care who or what you worship bukowski, just don’t try to tell me that it is the same God I worship, because I know better.

 

[dianaiad]

You believe that is the intent. Is it impossible for you to fathom that people have religious convictions different from yours?

It is the intent because they say it is. It’s pretty simple; they say so, I believe them.

As I said, you can name your gods whatever you like, they are different than the One God that Christians worship. This is a fact, not an insult or slam, unless of course you take it that way.

So…I use the words “Our Father in Heaven.” THEY use the words “Our Father in Heaven…” and their problem is that according to them we are not allowed to use those words in their presence.

Sorry, but there is no way on the planet that this is not intended to be offensive. Remember: in my position regarding the Rosary I am not attempting to stop you from practicing your faith as you see fit, or to stop you from praying as you wish, or using the words that you treasure and have faith in.

I think we are done here, don’t you? You keep finding things to get upset about.

 

[dianaiad]

It is what it is. When you are worshiping something different.

I don’t really care who or what you worship bukowski, just don’t try to tell me that it is the same God I worship, because I know better.

As you wish.

Just so long as you understand that WE believe it is the same God. The only problem is that you are more incorrect about Him than we are. He will, however, listen to both of us in spite of that.

…and why on earth you think that WE have to agree with you on this matter is utterly beyond me. Like being told we aren’t Christian when we know we are; we think you guys are wrong on so many other things…why in the name of all that is wonderful do you think we should accept your judgment on THAT?

I’ve never been able to figure that one out.

 

[tyciol]

In terms of how to resolve this with christian beliefs or Catholicism more specifically, you would have to see whether or not the additions which the Book of Mormon adds to christianity conflicts with it or not. Are there things in the Old or New testament which forbid this third addition? Does it contradict the past too much? Are the interpretations not in line with the Vatican’s interpretation of the scriptures?

I gotta admit they seem nice enough people, just had a couple visit me today. South Park also made’m seem nice even as they mocked their beliefs. Objectively speaking they’re not really any more out there than the senior principles of Christianity or Judaism.

 

[Jerusha]

In terms of how to resolve this with christian beliefs or Catholicism more specifically, you would have to see whether or not the additions which the Book of Mormon adds to christianity conflicts with it or not. Are there things in the Old or New testament which forbid this third addition? Does it contradict the past too much? Are the interpretations not in line with the Vatican’s interpretation of the scriptures?

There are many passages in the BoM that are in line with Catholicism. There are many passages that are downright horrible. It is just a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff. The problem is that Mormons allow their people to interpret the book each according to their own understanding. They call it “the holy spirit” The way some do, it is a very unholy spirit. That is the problem.

Many parts of it are in deep contradiction with true history. There is a little bit that exposes some real history that non-Natives slide over.

There are two to three different rationales they give for writing new “scripture” One is that since the Catholic Church was deeply in error almost from the very beginning, No-one needs to accept in any way the decisions about canonicity. I use the gnostic apocripha to refute that argument.

There is another that there is something to be learned about all peoples from their literature and traditions. Do we need to be so narrow-minded as to take the Jewish Old Testament as our history? I think not.

The problem is when people are not native to a tradition take it and try to interpret it to fit their misunderstandings and prejudices.

What I am trying to do is extract some good form it, in line with the Vatican’s teachings—
I believe that there is something to be learned from all religions. People have mocked the BoM for years-- it is not a book to be mocked (although it gets funny at times) it really does have some value.

 

[dianaiad]

In terms of how to resolve this with christian beliefs or Catholicism more specifically, you would have to see whether or not the additions which the Book of Mormon adds to christianity conflicts with it or not. Are there things in the Old or New testament which forbid this third addition? Does it contradict the past too much? Are the interpretations not in line with the Vatican’s interpretation of the scriptures?

I gotta admit they seem nice enough people, just had a couple visit me today. South Park also made’m seem nice even as they mocked their beliefs. Objectively speaking they’re not really any more out there than the senior principles of Christianity or Judaism.

…and we, who don’t accept the Vatican’s line on everything, should nevertheless accept it’s judgment about our Christianity…why?

Isn’t that a little like requiring a physicist to ask permission from the Flat Earth Society to call himself a scientist?

Please don’t take that the wrong way; I used these examples as an illustration of the strength of the relative opinions, not to compare modern Catholicism to the Flat Earth Society.

The point is, Members of the Flat Earth Society do not believe that physicists have a leg to stand on. They truly believe this…and for a very long time, the Catholic church strongly supported (to the extent of excommunicating and trying for blasphemy/treason/heresy/whatever) those who held a different view. No physicist would allow a Flat Earther to declare them ‘unscientific,’ even though the notion of a flat earth has been around a LOT longer than any description of the Big Bang or super massive black holes or dark matter or anything else.

Take this down a notch or two; what biologist would allow a strict biblical creationist to declare HER ‘unscientific?’

Yet for some reason, many Christians seem to believe that Mormons are going to meekly accept their judgment that “Mormons are not Christians” as if their opinion in this matter holds true no matter what else we believe they get wrong.

I don’t get it.

 

[ricko]

JERUSHA

Sorry but knowing that it was written through use of a “seer stone” in a hat is too hard to swallow. Joseph Smith and Charles Russell, same song, different verse. The BOM is a work of fiction, an invention of a man and a false teaching. I DO like the Mormon people though, mislead as they are. I liked the Heaven’s Gate people too. I saw their story on TV today, they all seemed like such nice people. Too bad they are gone.

 

[PaulDupre]

The white stone is the Book of the Living where the names of the redeemed are kept. Bet you thought it was Joseph Smith’s seer stone didnya?

No, he was most likely talking about the “new name” that Mormons are given in the temple. Although the new name is given on a little slip of paper, not a stone. They also believe that every person who enters the Celestial kingdom to become a god receives his own seer stone (as if a god needs a seer stone to know things).

Christians understand that whenever God gives someone a new name, it denotes a change in that person’s status and responsibilities. It is a sign that he is a new person. A few notable name changes from the bible are Abram to Abraham and Simon to Peter. These new names signaled the start of a new life and a new covenant with the Lord.

Those of us who endure to the end will be raised to a new life and an unimaginable glory in the presence of God.

 

[PaulDupre]

You know that I was talking about the stone-- you either avoided it as usual, or didn’t read the post, also as usual.

Talking to you is a waste.

I was just playin’ with ya, mf. Like I say, Mormons have no sense of humor.

But the manna part really was what caught my attention - after all, I’m a Catholic, and manna is an important type for us. Why must I always see everything as you do in order to avoid your wrath?

 

[Jerusha]

Those of us who endure to the end will be raised to a new life and an unimaginable glory in the presence of God.

Hey, Paul, thanks for the great quote.

 

[CJ_Nick]

Hey Ya’ll

A very interesting thread

Thought I would offer my 2 cents

My perspective comes from a rather lengthy journey I have had on a LDS forum. ( Several months as a Catholic visitor there)

First, I want to make clear that I was graciously welcomed by most LDS members and was treated rather well .I will always appreciate the warm respect that most showed me in offering our different perspectives. I have truly found many, many of them to be kind, loving, generous folk.( I also made some friends along the way ) My experience with them has indeed humbled me in my own Catholic faith.

Now for my 2 cents regarding this thread " Mormon Beliefs "

I will pass ( for now ) in offering any perspective on the BOM as much has already been posted here.

Personaly, what I was MOST surprised by were the many beliefs that were NOT found in the BOM , D&C, or Pearl of Great Price. ( Please understand that when I first arrived on this LDS forum I had no idea what they taught or believed ). The biggest surprise, amongst these things not found in the BOM, was the one concerning Joseph Smith’s King Follet Sermon that cleary taught that the God of our Earth was once a man just like us of an Earth before he became God of our Earth. Although the contributions given seemed to be all over the board, many ( Certainly not all ) LDS members suggested that yes indeed if Joseph Smith taught it from the pulpit as a prophet that it was what they believed. I must say, many claimed it to NOT be official doctrine but many others offered that if JS said it, consider it doctrine ( Others offered future prophets, Snow, Young, Continued this teaching of Exaltation)

This teaching was one of many that surprised me most. ( There were others )

I would not be fair to the many who welcomed me if I did not also say that many LDS members took alot of time and effort with me to kindly and warmly try and explain this was the reason for their prophets that they hold so precious.

At any rate, although I strongly disagree with much of the LDS teachings, I was and remain very impressed with the Christ-like manner many of them treated me while I was there. ( especially when I consider that I was in their sand box and at times playing with their shovels ).

Peace
CJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

As you wish.

Just so long as you understand that WE believe it is the same God. The only problem is that you are more incorrect about Him than we are. He will, however, listen to both of us in spite of that.

…and why on earth you think that WE have to agree with you on this matter is utterly beyond me. Like being told we aren’t Christian when we know we are; we think you guys are wrong on so many other things…why in the name of all that is wonderful do you think we should accept your judgment on THAT?

I’ve never been able to figure that one out.

You don’t have to accept the truth. Neither do we have to accept your erroneous claims.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hey Ya’ll

A very interesting thread

Thought I would offer my 2 cents

My perspective comes from a rather lengthy journey I have had on a LDS forum. ( Several months as a Catholic visitor there)

First, I want to make clear that I was graciously welcomed by most LDS members and was treated rather well .I will always appreciate the warm respect that most showed me in offering our different perspectives. I have truly found many, many of them to be kind, loving, generous folk.( I also made some friends along the way ) My experience with them has indeed humbled me in my own Catholic faith.

Now for my 2 cents regarding this thread " Mormon Beliefs "

I will pass ( for now ) in offering any perspective on the BOM as much has already been posted here.

Personaly, what I was MOST surprised by were the many beliefs that were NOT found in the BOM , D&C, or Pearl of Great Price. ( Please understand that when I first arrived on this LDS forum I had no idea what they taught or believed ). The biggest surprise, amongst these things not found in the BOM, was the one concerning Joseph Smith’s King Follet Sermon that cleary taught that the God of our Earth was once a man just like us of an Earth before he became God of our Earth. Although the contributions given seemed to be all over the board, many ( Certainly not all ) LDS members suggested that yes indeed if Joseph Smith taught it from the pulpit as a prophet that it was what they believed. I must say, many claimed it to NOT be official doctrine but many others offered that if JS said it, consider it doctrine ( Others offered future prophets, Snow, Young, Continued this teaching of Exaltation)

This teaching was one of many that surprised me most. ( There were others )

I would not be fair to the many who welcomed me if I did not also say that many LDS members took alot of time and effort with me to kindly and warmly try and explain this was the reason for their prophets that they hold so precious.

At any rate, although I strongly disagree with much of the LDS teachings, I was and remain very impressed with the Christ-like manner many of them treated me while I was there. ( especially when I consider that I was in their sand box and at times playing with their shovels ).

Peace
CJ

Glad to hear you had a good experience. I’ve experienced the same and the worst insults possible, sometimes by the same people.

I tend to view overly nice mormons as hoping for your conversion. They know this is not going to happen with me, so their gloves come off. Or, their passive-aggressive approach comes out. By that I mean, sticky sweet words used to convey insults. (Mormons in this thread have got that going pretty well.)

 

[CJ_Nick]

Glad to hear you had a good experience. I’ve experienced the same and the worst insults possible, sometimes by the same people.

I tend to view overly nice mormons as hoping for your conversion. They know this is not going to happen with me, so their gloves come off. Or, their passive-aggressive approach comes out. By that I mean, sticky sweet words used to convey insults. (Mormons in this thread have got that going pretty well.)

Hello RebeccaJ

My dear Catholic sister

Coming from a broken sinner ( ME ) who has no right to judge you at all, may I suggest that it is atleast possible that you have also thrown a few insults in the mix.

Interesting perspective you offer. I tend to view nice Mormons as, well, nice Mormons .

To suggest that WE ALL are not hoping ( just a littlte ) to convert people of other faiths during our back and forth seems to me to be a little less than genuine.

I do realize that you used to be Mormon and I certainly do not claim to understand all that you have gone through during your journey but PLEASE understand that we are all on our own journey as well. It is my humble opinion that the hardest thing, yet the most Christian thing we can do is to extend our hand in friendship to ALL ( Even if they are trying to convert us )

Peace,
CJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hello RebeccaJ

My dear Catholic sister

Coming from a broken sinner ( ME ) who has no right to judge you at all, may I suggest that it is atleast possible that you have also thrown a few insults in the mix.

Interesting perspective you offer. I tend to view nice Mormons as, well, nice Mormons .

To suggest that WE ALL are not hoping ( just a littlte ) to convert people of other faiths during our back and forth seems to me to be a little less than genuine.

I do realize that you used to be Mormon and I certainly do not claim to understand all that you have gone through during your journey but PLEASE understand that we are all on our own journey as well. It is my humble opinion that the hardest thing, yet the most Christian thing we can do is to extend our hand in friendship to ALL ( Even if they are trying to convert us )

Peace,
CJ

Believe what you will. I hope to be able to have charity towards Mormons, friendship is probably not possible, as friendship with any Mormon I have known (outside of family) requires that you give up your own convictions.

 

[CJ_Nick]

Believe what you will. I hope to be able to have charity towards Mormons, friendship is probably not possible, as friendship with any Mormon I have known (outside of family) requires that you give up your own convictions.

Peace,
CJ

 

[datamonkey]

Believe what you will. I hope to be able to have charity towards Mormons, friendship is probably not possible, as friendship with any Mormon I have known (outside of family) requires that you give up your own convictions.

I appreciate your honesty. The road we have traveled shapes our attitudes. I have lived as a non-mormon in Southern Idaho (10 years) and in Utah (8 years) where I encountered wide spread bigotry against non-mormons. After moving in, your neighbors welcome you and ask what ward you belong to. When they find out you’re not a mormon, they ask if they can send the missionaries over. If you say thanks but no thanks, you’ll never hear from your neighbors again. They become people you see in passing; nothing more.They wouldn’t let thier children come to our house. When my son asked a mormon girl out for a date, her dad insisted he meet with the missionaries. My boss had a hiring preference for returned missionaries so he could reward them for the committment to the church (I was transfered in). When I interviewed job applicants, some brought their BOM with them (wink - nod).

All in all, I loved Salt Lake City, hated Idaho.