Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[Jerusha]

I still hold to my statement about wiggle-room. Sin is too narrowly defined. It woud be much better if those questions were more clearly defined, as in a supplemental list. I am aware that, depending on who the bishop is, things are done differently in different places.

 

[dianaiad]

I still hold to my statement about wiggle-room. Sin is too narrowly defined. It woud be much better if those questions were more clearly defined, as in a supplemental list. I am aware that, depending on who the bishop is, things are done differently in different places.

Excuse me, but ‘wiggle room’ and 'sin too NARROWLY defined" are contradictory terms.

Either the sins are too narrowly defined (in which case there would be no ‘wiggle room’ )

Or they are, as they should be, more broadly defined, leaving much of this up to the conscience of the believer who, in most cases, can be harder on him or herself than the Bishop could.

An analogy to classroom rules would apply here:

One teacher has a rule:

“Do not throw spit balls at the student in front of you.”

Now* that’s *a narrowly defined ‘sin.’

However, it certainly leaves open the option to throw gum wrappers at the student in front of you, or spitballs to the students on either side.

A more useful rule is:

“Respect the person and property of others.” Which, by the way, covers spitballs and other projectiles no matter the target–as well as hair pulling, snooping, stealing paper or pencils, kicking, wiggling chairs, insults and general class screwing around.

“Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?” Covers all forms of chicanery, not just a few.

“Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?”

I would not call that exactly a narrow definition, by anybody’s standards.

 

[dianaiad]

They don’t get it. I have tried many times to explain to Mormons that if God is really God, then there is nothing that exists that He did not create (see John 1:3). That means that no matter how many universes exist, the one God created them all. They just cannot conceive of a truly infinite God. They have been trained to think of God as a being that exists in time and space and who arose from pre-existing matter. It is useless to explain it to them - they will never get it unless the Holy Spirit teaches it to them (and I’ve seen that happen, praise Jesus!).

Where did God come from?
What did He do before He created the universe?
What will He do when (as seems quite possible) the Universe winds down?
What is the purpose of His existence?
What is OURS?
What’s the point?

Honest questions, by the way–and 'it’s a mystery" and “I don’t know” are quite acceptable answers.

 

[Jerusha]

Notice there is nothing in it about…gossip, judgmental attitudes, racism, etc, etc.

Diana, you are still wiggling.

 

[ricko]

Gotta hand it to you, Ricko, you are amusing.

But, as usual, not exactly honest. Here is the paragraph that precedes the article you are quoting:

“The unique culture of the LDS Church brings ample opportunity to write satirical pieces reflective of Mormon leaders, teachings, doctrines and quirks. The articles below are fictious, but offers insight into the complex and, sometimes, humorous nature of the Mormons and their culture.” (emphasis mine)

With that in mind, some of the articles on that site are very funny…and Mormons in the culture understand and are well able to poke fun at themselves. It’s good for us.

Obviously a joke as it looked like we all could have used some relief. However, the part about Satan controlling the waters is Mormon teaching, THAT is not a joke.

 

[dianaiad]

Obviously a joke as it looked like we all could have used some relief. However, the part about Satan controlling the waters is Mormon teaching, THAT is not a joke.

My mission president warned us not to swim while on our missions, though I think that had more to do with swim suits and modesty than the idea that Satan would grab us…but yes, I have heard this one.

But Ricko, you post so much inaccurate information about what the church believes that when you post something like this as a joke, you need to A; give the source and B: let us know ahead of time that it is a joke.

Y’see, when you seriously make some claim about what our beliefs actually are, they are generally as false, misleading and weird as this one was. So how can we tell unless you actually SAY something? You really need to come with a warning label.

Not to mention that it’s not nice to steal other people’s words. Writers tend to be sensitive about that sort of thing.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, you are still wiggling.

Jerusha, I answered you with thought and with logic–with examples and with reason. If the only comment you can come back with is "you are still wiggling’ without any explanation of what the ‘wiggle’ actually IS, I have to consider that you are simply not willing to give any credit to a Mormon or Mormon thoughts at any level. It says a great deal about your objectivity and fairness; you have neither. It is helpful for us, as judges of future comments about Mormonism, to understand this; you can’t present anything about Mormonism in a positive light, can you?

One of us could see your house on fire, break the door down, haul your six children, two bedridden grandparents, three cats and four dogs out of the house safely and succumb to burns and smoke inhalation while doing so…and the report you would write would read “Mormon gets killed breaking and entering; valuables found outside the house.”

But thank you for posting the interview questions.

 

[Jerusha]

If I were a news reporter, I would not find it necessary to report anyone’s religion or race or sexual preference. It would not be relevant. That is how I always worked.

 

[Stephen168]

The documents that Joseph Smith had were far more extensive than the fragments we have now. Sorry, but that’s fact. That we have fragments of that text that have been identified as 'funerary texts" is absolutely true.

It is also absolutely true that we have less than a quarter of the texts that Joseph had. So, while what we do have may seem unrelated to the Book of Abraham, that portion we do NOT have has obviously not been identified.

You guys seem to love to forget mentioning that part. Just somehow fades from memory…and you can’t prove a negative. That’s why I say that this hasn’t been proven ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, yet.

What has been proven:

1. The fragments we have were the fragments that Joseph Smith had.
2. We have about 1/3 of the fragments that Smith had.
3. The fragments we have are dated 1700 years after the time of Abraham.
4. The fragments we have been identified as a funeral text.

So for the Book of Abraham to be a translation as Joseph Smith claims; 1/3 of it would have to be a funeral text and it could not have been written by Abraham. My understanding is the Book of Abraham claims to be written by Abraham and none of it is a funeral text.

 

[dianaiad]

If I were a news reporter, I would not find it necessary to report anyone’s religion or race or sexual preference. It would not be relevant. That is how I always worked.

You aren’t acting as a news reporter on this forum, Jerusha…and that is as neat an equivocation (and a wiggle) as I’ve ever seen.

Besides, if YOU wouldn’t have reported his religion or race or sexual preference, you would be unique among reporters. At least the ‘religion’ part. Reporters love to insert religion into the mix, especially if it will add to the shock value. If a Baptist minister robbed an ATM machine, you can bet that the “Baptist minister” part would be a prominent part of the story.

I notice that you did not deny the substance of the claim, though. In other words, your headline would read “Man killed while breaking and entering, valuables found outside.”?

:hmmm:

Or would your personal prohibition against mentioning religious preference (one, as I have mentioned, not shared by any OTHER reporter I’ve ever read!) let you report the heroism?

I mean, as long as you didn’t have to give a Mormon credit or anything, I suppose you could do that.

 

[zaffiroborant]

If WE don’t need to worry about this question…

Doesn’t. It may indeed be that He created all universes. The point is, WE don’t need to worry about it much, because it is the universe that we inhabit/understand/have any inkling of WAS created by Him. At least, I believe that. /QUOTE]

Why do we have to worry about these?
dianaiad;4910552:

Where did God come from?
What did He do before He created the universe?
What will He do when (as seems quite possible) the Universe winds down?
What is the purpose of His existence?
What is OURS?
What’s the point?

Honest questions, by the way–and 'it’s a mystery" and “I don’t know” are quite acceptable answers.

 

[PaulDupre]

Where did God come from?

God did not come from anywhere. He is eternal, He is existence itself. He has always existed.

What did He do before He created the universe?

He hasn’t told us that, so we don’t know. But God doesn’t have to “do” anything to justify His existence. He is existence itself. His very existence is what He “does”.

What will He do when (as seems quite possible) the Universe winds down?

We don’t believe the universe will ever wind down. The Nicene creed says “world without end”.

What is the purpose of His existence?

As I said above, God’s very existence is its own purpose. Only a created thing needs a purpose (and that purpose is to fulfill God’s will that it exist).

What is OURS?

God created us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this life, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

What’s the point?

If you don’t understand that, then you don’t know God. God knows what is best, and His will is all-wise. The fact that He created us is enough of a point. God created us because He wanted to, and that is enough. We believe that God knows what He is doing, and we don’t try to second-guess Him. We will learn all the answers if we are faithful and are admitted into His presence after we die.

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." - 1 Cor 13:12

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Because He didn’t dwell on this earth.

YOU guys are the ones who claim that He dwelt on this earth…in the person of Jesus Christ.

Actually y’all do think he dwelt on earth. See post 752.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

He created this universe.

Are there other universes? Even science seems to have figured out that yeah, there are. But THIS one is the only one that we can identify, work with, live with, or even hope to understand; it contains everything we can possibly know.

At least at the moment.

Be careful listening to some scientist! A lot of them think they are a god.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Because of the paradox…‘universe’ meaning everything.

Language is an interesting thing, y’know? It allows us to build impossible concepts and contemplate them…universal koans for the terminally confused.

It allows us to admit the possibility that there is the universe; that set of EVERYTHING that God created.

And also to contemplate the idea of more than one universe. The thing that tickles me is that it is the physicists and scientists who have done the math that ‘proves’ the existence of more than one of 'em.

I think God would have talked about that a lot! If people knew they would be getting our own universe don’t you think we would have a whole lot less sin in this world! God would have definitly made that point a lot!!

 

[dianaiad]

If WE don’t need to worry about this question…
dianaiad;4910159:

Doesn’t. It may indeed be that He created all universes. The point is, WE don’t need to worry about it much, because it is the universe that we inhabit/understand/have any inkling of WAS created by Him. At least, I believe that. /QUOTE]

Why do we have to worry about these?

I don’t worry about them, because I have some inkling of the answers. I was asking you.

 

[dianaiad]

I think God would have talked about that a lot! If people knew they would be getting our own universe don’t you think we would have a whole lot less sin in this world! God would have definitly made that point a lot!!

Why?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but…who are you to say what God would have done? He does what HE does. He is Who HE is.

The second I hear someone say 'God wouldn’t do this" or “God would do that,” I begin thinking of the old saying that man created God in his own image; God is OK as long as He does what we want Him to do.

Problem is, if He is God, He will do what He wants to do, and having a 'oh, but God wouldn’t DO that…" is problematic.

And I have no idea why there would be less sin in the world if God proclaimed that we would get our own universes. That makes no sense. God has proclaimed a great many things, and people don’t believe those, why should they believe that?

 

[zaffiroborant]

zaffiroborant;4910796:

If WE don’t need to worry about this question…

I don’t worry about them, because I have some inkling of the answers. I was asking you.

Well Paul’s answer covers it pretty well.

 

[dianaiad]

Actually y’all do think he dwelt on earth. See post 752.

with all due respect, quoting yourself claiming something is not proof of its truth. For one thing, the quote you gave from Joseph Smith (taken out of context, by the way…) said that he dwelt on AN earth, not HERE.

As well, God DID dwell on earth, THIS one. He was born here, grew to manhood here, died and was resurrected here. YOU are the ones who believe that Jesus is fully God, one with the Father.

So please don’t give me that shocked ‘but you believe God dwelt on earth.’

Not when it is your belief.

 

[PaulDupre]

Actually y’all do think he dwelt on earth. See post 752.

The real LDS teaching is this:

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

• Gospel Principles, Chapter 47 - Exaltation

Note that it says “*an *earth”, not “*the *earth”. So the Mormon Heavenly Father grew up on another planet before he “became God”.

Paul