Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

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it is now quite evident that mormonism is on the same track as the shakers, an interesting american religious movement that died out relatively soon. converts are nonexistent (real converts that is) resignations are increasing daily and the truth is so obvious and so readily available…i no longer fear this heresy.
 
it is now quite evident that mormonism is on the same track as the shakers, an interesting american religious movement that died out relatively soon. converts are nonexistent (real converts that is) resignations are increasing daily and the truth is so obvious and so readily available…i no longer fear this heresy.
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it is now quite evident that mormonism is on the same track as the shakers, an interesting american religious movement that died out relatively soon. converts are nonexistent (real converts that is) resignations are increasing daily and the truth is so obvious and so readily available…i no longer fear this heresy.
I see.

OK, according to “adherents,” the number of Catholics who ‘attend church regularly’ goes from 14% (in the USA) to 33% (in Italy)

According to 'Catholic Online" We have the following quote:

**With an increase of 1.94 percent over its previous year’s total, the Catholic Church was also among the fastest-growing of the nation’s 25 largest churches, followed closely by the Assemblies of God, which recorded 1.86 percent growth, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with 1.63 percent growth.

In 2004 the Catholic Church came in third behind the other two in rate of growth. Because of annual fluctuations, a better indicator of trends is membership change over a longer period, such as a decade.

Between the 1997 and 2007 yearbooks, the recorded change in Catholic population was from 60.3 million to 69.1 million, or an increase of 15 percent. The Assemblies of God recorded growth of nearly 19 percent in that decade, and the Latter-day Saints grew by nearly 21 percent. **

I went to five other sites, all Catholic, and found out that the Catholic increase in numbers is almost wholly due to births. According to a Presbyterian study of church membership loss, the Catholic church retains 85% of its members; the highest loyalty quotient of all “mainline” (their word) churches. They did not examine Mormons. Of course, this means that 15% of you officially resign and join someone else. These numbers do not reflect those who simply don’t show up, or convert elsewhere and fail to inform the church of the move.

And although the birth rate even in Italy has fallen to 1.4 births per woman, that still means that the Catholic church is growing primarily through the birth rate. (catholic-pages.com/morality/dearth.asp)

Please note: all of the above information was researched on Catholic sites.

Now let us look at the LDS growth. We already know, from the Catholic site, that even you guys admit that we grew faster over the decade measured: 21% for us, 15% for you between 1997 and 2007.

However, according to the National Council of Churches report of 2009, the Catholic church showed a decline in growth of .59% since the 2008 report, while the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rose in membership by 1.63% during that same year. It seems that the CoJCoLDS was one of only four churches in the USA that actually showed growth; the other three are The Assemblies of God (.96%), the Jehovah’s Witnesses (2.12 %) and the Church of God of Cleveland, Tenn. (2.04)

(Uhmn…what in the world is the 'Church of God of Cleveland, Tenn?..never mind.)

The point is, the CoJCoLDS has a consistent growth rate that stays a growth rate, not a decline in membership.

Ok, I hear the protests; but wait, you are claiming…you guys count people who DON’T EVEN GO TO CHURCH!!!

Well, yeah.

So do you.

Let’s take a look at that; we have the Catholics claiming that even in Italy, the home of the Vatican, only a third of the members of the Catholic church attend church. In the USA, it is 14%.

Let’s compare that to the LDS attendance statistics…In Africa over half of all the members show up weekly: 54%. PER WEEK.

In the United States, it’s 33 to 50%, depending on the state.

Given that church attendance (self reported) in the United States is around 45% (that’s people who say they go to church ‘regularly’ as opposed to ‘weekly’)

The point is, sir, that every church in the world is either slowing down, or actually losing membership. Very few are gaining…and the CoJCoLDS is one of those that is still growing. Let’s face it; a ‘retention problem’ that means that 50% of members do not show up to church beats the one YOU have by a considerable margin; according to your own church statistics, you are losing between 66 and 86% of yours.

The moral of this little bit of reality?

I think it’s something along the lines of ‘mote and beam.’
 
The way is narrow. For, behold, it came to pass that I forgot about the time-change, and missed Mass. 😦 I think I ought to read some REAL scriptures. 😉

( I am now at Alma 44)
 
Yes, the true word of the Lord is plain and simple, refreshing the soul. 🙂
 
Diana, there is weird and then there is CRAZY. As in unbelievable crazy. It is perfectly acceptable, and preferable, to REASON. Believing that JS translated a papyrus when it has been proven he made it all up is not REASONABLE. No matter how hard you try to spin it.
It seems the more science teaches us, the more of a liability JS becomes to Mormonism.
 
Or manipulating statistics for a personal agenda.
No manipulation at all. I simply reported them.

And they were all from Catholic or non-Mormon websites, Rebecca. Sorry, but…that’s what YOU guys are saying about your own membership growth…and about ours.

I was careful to use your sites and non-Mormon sites because I knew that any bias I encountered would be skewed negatively towards Mormonism, and positively towards Catholicism.

That makes the numbers I am quoting here more significant, not less, and knee jerk one liner slaps don’t make the numbers go away, either.
 
No manipulation at all. I simply reported them.

And they were all from Catholic or non-Mormon websites, Rebecca. Sorry, but…that’s what YOU guys are saying about your own membership growth…and about ours.

I was careful to use your sites and non-Mormon sites because I knew that any bias I encountered would be skewed negatively towards Mormonism, and positively towards Catholicism.

That makes the numbers I am quoting here more significant, not less, and knee jerk one liner slaps don’t make the numbers go away, either.
Where did you get 14% church attendance in the US? I see mostly around 30%.
 
Numbers are a funny thing especially when using percentages. The total number of Catholics in the world is 1.5 billion, the number of Mormons is around 6 million.

You see a report from a Mormon that states, We Mormons are the fastest growing church in the world, our growth rate last year was 5% while you Catholics only grew at 1%!!

Ok, but when you apply those percentage rates to the numbers we get:

Mormons at 5% = 300,000
Catholics at 1% = 10,000,000
 
Where did you get 14% church attendance in the US? I see mostly around 30%.
Sorry, the link was missing. Go to Adherents, where the attendance statistics for a BUNCH of religions are listed, and you get: Italy; 32% and USA = 14%

I confirmed this through several other websites, within 5 to 7 percentage points. The highest percentage was posted by Kirk Hadaway on “religion on-line” which said that 28% of Catholics in America actually attend church. This was in 1993—and attendance has gone DOWN.

It is a huge problem for everybody. I was more than a little bit shocked when I started doing the research; I knew that LDS attendance would range from 30% to 55% (depending on where the ward actually is), just from comparing the number of people who are supposed to be in a ward vs. those who actually show up for services; we keep fairly good track of that.

It’s enough to make me want to tell everyone here to quit typing and go to Mass! I went to church, I waved my arm in time to the music, I enjoyed…just how many people posting on this forum actually did go to Mass today? Honestly?
 
Why are we talking about the growth of Churches… its growth is not a reflection of its quality. We are closing libraries as things like abortion , unemployment, teen sucide, are showing strong growth patterns. Lets start discussing how the Catholic Church and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can work together so these growth patterns reverse. Let’s find some common ground and start practicing the what Jesus Christ has taught us. Grow up.
 
Sorry, the link was missing. Go to Adherents, where the attendance statistics for a BUNCH of religions are listed, and you get: Italy; 32% and USA = 14%

I confirmed this through several other websites, within 5 to 7 percentage points. The highest percentage was posted by Kirk Hadaway on “religion on-line” which said that 28% of Catholics in America actually attend church. This was in 1993—and attendance has gone DOWN.

It is a huge problem for everybody. I was more than a little bit shocked when I started doing the research; I knew that LDS attendance would range from 30% to 55% (depending on where the ward actually is), just from comparing the number of people who are supposed to be in a ward vs. those who actually show up for services; we keep fairly good track of that.

It’s enough to make me want to tell everyone here to quit typing and go to Mass! I went to church, I waved my arm in time to the music, I enjoyed…just how many people posting on this forum actually did go to Mass today? Honestly?
Both the PEW research and the stats at USCCB show around 30% weekly Mass attendance, and around 15% daily Mass attendance (in the US).

I went to noon Mass today at St. Vincents. Thanks for asking. 🙂
 
It seems the more science teaches us, the more of a liability JS becomes to Mormonism.
I think so, but what Mormons do, is just change the story. And, their confidence in Smith. Not more than 30 years ago Mormons hung on his every word, now, a lot of what he taught they call “opinion”. And where they clung to their prophet’s words, they now cling to their extraneous scriptures.

A Mormon’s faith is based entirely on these scriptures. When that faith is gone, there is nothing left.
 
Numbers are a funny thing especially when using percentages. The total number of Catholics in the world is 1.5 billion, the number of Mormons is around 6 million.

You see a report from a Mormon that states, We Mormons are the fastest growing church in the world, our growth rate last year was 5% while you Catholics only grew at 1%!!

Ok, but when you apply those percentage rates to the numbers we get:

Mormons at 5% = 300,000
Catholics at 1% = 10,000,000
Mormons like to think we are the 'fastest growing…" but we aren’t. We are among the top four…and percentage is the only fair way to compare. Sheer numbers don’t mean much to growth if the numbers actually reflect (as they did last year for Catholicism) to a .5% decline.

And I note that you made up your own numbers. Lets use the numbers from last year that are actually real…

There are 13,000,000 Mormons on the planet. Membership grew by 1.5%, approximately.
There are (from one source, anyway) 1,100,000,000, (1.1 billion)

Just for giggles, let’s use those numbers.

That means that if the Mormons added 195,000 members last year, and the Catholics lost 5,500,000…a little less than half the the number of Mormons there are. Five million, five hundred thousand people.

Now I could manipulate those numbers for a whole lot of mileage…but it wouldn’t be any more helpful to reality than your own attempt. I think you can see why percentages are a little more useful, can’t you? Far more fair to the Catholics, for one thing.

A half of a percent decline sounds much nicer than the loss of five million, five hundred people, and is more indicative of what is being measured here.

Whatever, I think we can eliminate any resemblance the CoJCoLDS has to the Shakers in terms of longevity, much as I admire the Shaker work ethics, furniture and .Simple Gifts
 
My friend took me to some little Catholic Church yesterday somewhere out in the boondocks! I was impressed. It was packed to the gills. The people were very nice and very religious. It was a great Mass.
 
Why are we talking about the growth of Churches… its growth is not a reflection of its quality. We are closing libraries as things like abortion , unemployment, teen sucide, are showing strong growth patterns. Lets start discussing how the Catholic Church and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can work together so these growth patterns reverse. Let’s find some common ground and start practicing the what Jesus Christ has taught us. Grow up.
“We” are talking about it because someone here was claiming that the CoJCoLDS was losing members, closing up shop and going the way of the Shakers, and that he didn’t have to 'be afraid" of “the heresy” any more.

And I agree with you about working together. The Catholic Church and the CoJCoLDS has traditionally worked together very closely in many things, mostly charity efforts, etc. That may be changing, given the new directives from the Vatican and all, but at the moment?

So. Did you go to Mass today? (grin) I went to church.
 
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