Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[RebeccaJ]

My son and I were the lectors at today’s 9:30 mass at St. Callistus in Garden Grove, CA.

I thought the 2nd reading to be relevant to this discussion

Romans 8

31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. 34 Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry to hear that.

Well, I’m glad to hear that you went to Mass.

 

[Jerusha]

I thought the 2nd reading to be relevant to this discussion

Romans 8

31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. 34 Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.

I got that much. It was the Transfiguration (Mark 9) that got me the most. JS was only suffering from hallucinations.

 

[Jerusha]

It is beastly to spell Amalikiah. Why on earth did they make up such wierd names?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is beastly to spell Amalikiah. Why on earth did they make up such wierd names?

Borrowed names: Amalech + iah.

There’s lots of the same throughout.

 

[Jerusha]

Cool. Please PM me your e-mail.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sorry, the link was missing. Go to Adherents, where the attendance statistics for a BUNCH of religions are listed, and you get: Italy; 32% and USA = 14%

I confirmed this through several other websites, within 5 to 7 percentage points. The highest percentage was posted by Kirk Hadaway on “religion on-line” which said that 28% of Catholics in America actually attend church. This was in 1993—and attendance has gone DOWN.

It is a huge problem for everybody. I was more than a little bit shocked when I started doing the research; I knew that LDS attendance would range from 30% to 55% (depending on where the ward actually is), just from comparing the number of people who are supposed to be in a ward vs. those who actually show up for services; we keep fairly good track of that.

It’s enough to make me want to tell everyone here to quit typing and go to Mass! I went to church, I waved my arm in time to the music, I enjoyed…just how many people posting on this forum actually did go to Mass today? Honestly?

The adherents site’s question is how many attend at least monthly, where are the numbers for attend weekly or hardly ever. Also for Italy it cites a book The Catholic Myth by Andrew Greeley which in turn cites this:

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "…proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month… Belgium, 60%; Italy, 53%… " [Italy: 53% * est. 90% of pop. which is Catholic = 47.7% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

For the US it has 3 citations:

Glazer, Nathan. American Judaism (Second Edition); Chicago: University of Chicago Press (1972); pg. 114.

"In 1947, a national public opinion poll had shown that 18% of Jewish respondents attended service once a month (the comparative figures were 65% for Protestants and 85% for Catholics). " [Other sources show Catholic U.S. pop. for 1948 at 19.9%; 19.9% * 85% = 16.92%]

Greeley, Andrew M. The Catholic Myth: The Behavior and Beliefs of American Catholics. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons (1990); pg. 266, 269.

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "…proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month… Spain, 77%; the United States, 75%… " [USA: 75% * est. 25% of pop. which is Catholic, (or est. 55 million) = 18.75% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

Neusner, Jacob (ed). World Religions in America: An Introduction; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press (1994); pg. 94.

"About a quarter of the American population is Catholic; of this number, half attend church regularly (at least several times a month) and another quarter attend at least once a month. " [50% + 25% = 75% "churchgoers. " 75% * 25% = 18.75% of U.S. pop.]

That last citations looks as though 18% of Americans attend a Catholic Mass and 75% of Catholics attend either once a month or several times a month. Statistics always seem like Lego to me, you can build what ever you want out of them

Edited to add:
No I didn’t go to Mass today, I have to work every other Sunday, it seems no one wants to work on Sunday (even though we get paid 25% more) so we all have to take a turn. But DH and DK and DMIL all went.

 

[LDSGuy]

i would think that members of a religious forum are hardly representative of the average church member, so I wouldn’t ask a forum user whether they went to Mass/church/etc as a way to judge that religion.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Both the PEW research and the stats at USCCB show around 30% weekly Mass attendance, and around 15% daily Mass attendance (in the US).

I went to noon Mass today at St. Vincents. Thanks for asking.

I actually went to Mass yesterday and twice today! No I wasn’t serving. I just felt like going to a friend’s Mass at his church with him, it was after my own Church’s Mass. I also stood 5 hours on Picket line against abortion this week. I work full time and still can place religion in my life. I often tell “Catholic’s” that they might as well be Protestants if they aren’t going to follow the laws of our church. My church has 2,500 families (estimated 4 members per family) registered. We have 6 Masses a weekend with around 350 at each so we have many “non” registered people coming to Mass! I actually only care that I and my wife go. Others must worry about their own souls!

God Bless

 

[truthsilence]

5:00 Mass at Our Lady of the Snows, Alta, Utah. :getholy:

God bless, everybody! Happy 2nd week of Lent.

 

[dianaiad]

The adherents site’s question is how many attend at least monthly, where are the numbers for attend weekly or hardly ever. Also for Italy it cites a book The Catholic Myth by Andrew Greeley which in turn cites this:

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "…proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month… Belgium, 60%; Italy, 53%… " [Italy: 53% * est. 90% of pop. which is Catholic = 47.7% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

I don’t understand the question. “Where are the numbers?” I just gave them to you, and you have just repeated them within that 5 to 7% spread I spoke about.

For the US it has 3 citations:

Glazer, Nathan. American Judaism (Second Edition); Chicago: University of Chicago Press (1972); pg. 114.

"In 1947, a national public opinion poll had shown that 18% of Jewish respondents attended service once a month (the comparative figures were 65% for Protestants and 85% for Catholics). " [Other sources show Catholic U.S. pop. for 1948 at 19.9%; 19.9% * 85% = 16.92%]

Greeley, Andrew M. The Catholic Myth: The Behavior and Beliefs of American Catholics. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons (1990); pg. 266, 269.

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "…proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month… Spain, 77%; the United States, 75%… " [USA: 75% * est. 25% of pop. which is Catholic, (or est. 55 million) = 18.75% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

Neusner, Jacob (ed). World Religions in America: An Introduction; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press (1994); pg. 94.

"About a quarter of the American population is Catholic; of this number, half attend church regularly (at least several times a month) and another quarter attend at least once a month. " [50% + 25% = 75% "churchgoers. " 75% * 25% = 18.75% of U.S. pop.]

That last citations looks as though 18% of Americans attend a Catholic Mass and 75% of Catholics attend either once a month or several times a month. Statistics always seem like Lego to me, you can build what ever you want out of them

The problem with public opinion polls, as was mentioned by Haldaway (and that I quoted) is that when people self describe themselves as 'attending several times a month," they lie. The above numbers are very inflated. As in, hugely so–and the very quotes you give me come from articles that say so.

Edited to add:
No I didn’t go to Mass today, I have to work every other Sunday, it seems no one wants to work on Sunday (even though we get paid 25% more) so we all have to take a turn. But DH and DK and DMIL all went.

I understand that you can go on a weekday if you wish.

 

[dianaiad]

i would think that members of a religious forum are hardly representative of the average church member, so I wouldn’t ask a forum user whether they went to Mass/church/etc as a way to judge that religion.

I wasn’t asking as a way to judge.

I was encouraging everyone to go to Mass. It could only help the attendance problem.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The adherents site’s question is how many attend at least monthly, where are the numbers for attend weekly or hardly ever. Also for Italy it cites a book The Catholic Myth by Andrew Greeley which in turn cites this:

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "….proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month… Belgium, 60%; Italy, 53%… " [Italy: 53% * est. 90% of pop. which is Catholic = 47.7% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

For the US it has 3 citations:

Glazer, Nathan. American Judaism (Second Edition); Chicago: University of Chicago Press (1972); pg. 114.

"In 1947, a national public opinion poll had shown that 18% of Jewish respondents attended service once a month (the comparative figures were 65% for Protestants and 85% for Catholics). " [Other sources show Catholic U.S. pop. for 1948 at 19.9%; 19.9% * 85% = 16.92%]

Greeley, Andrew M. The Catholic Myth: The Behavior and Beliefs of American Catholics. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons (1990); pg. 266, 269.

Pg. 266: "using the ISV [International Study of Values, 1981] and ISSP [International Social Survey Project, 1985] surveys… "; Pg. 269: "…proportion of men & women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month.… Spain, 77%; the United States, 75%… " [USA: 75% * est. 25% of pop. which is Catholic, (or est. 55 million) = 18.75% of total pop. attending mass monthly]

Neusner, Jacob (ed). World Religions in America: An Introduction; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press (1994); pg. 94.

"**About a quarter of the American population is Catholic; of this number, half attend church regularly (at least several times a month) and another quarter attend at least once a month. " [50% + 25% = 75% "churchgoers. " 75% * 25% = 18.75% of U.S. pop.]

That last citations looks as though 18% of Americans attend a Catholic Mass and 75% of Catholics attend either once a month or several times a month.

Statistics always seem like Lego to me, you can build what ever you want out of them

Edited to add:
No I didn’t go to Mass today, I have to work every other Sunday, it seems no one wants to work on Sunday (even though we get paid 25% more) so we all have to take a turn. But DH and DK and DMIL all went.

I don’t understand the question. “Where are the numbers?” I just gave them to you, and you have just repeated them within that 5 to 7% spread I spoke about.

The adherents you cite give a percent of Catholics who attend “at least monthly” I’ve seen this, but along side it are figures for those who “attend weekly” and for those who “attend occasionally” and both of the figures for the categories I mentioned are different. The parts I bolded from your citation seem to skew the results. “Portion of men and women over 35 who attend Mass at least once a month” what is that those under 35 don’t count as attendees??? And what’s is with attendance at Catholic Mass of a percentage of the US population as a whole as stated here:

About a quarter of the American population is Catholic; of this number, half attend church regularly (at least several times a month) and another quarter attend at least once a month. " [50% + 25% = 75% "churchgoers. " **75% * 25% = 18.75% of U.S. pop.]

The problem with public opinion polls, as was mentioned by Haldaway (and that I quoted) is that when people self describe themselves as 'attending several times a month," they lie. The above numbers are very inflated. As in, hugely so–and the very quotes you give me come from articles that say so.

I understand that you can go on a weekday if you wish.

Well I could but the daily Mass at my parish is when I’m getting my kids ready and taking the bunch of them to school then it is off to school for my day job (not the same one that once a month interferes with going to Mass. And daily Mass does not replace my Sunday obligation to attend, Saturday evening would but I work every Saturday night.

 

[mfbukowski]

Anyway, Ricko, since you forgot the attribution, I thought I’d help you out a bit.

Dang. You are a sweetheart D. You know what I would have said to him. Bless you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Full of satire; some a little more gentle than others–most of it on the Jonothan Swift “A Modest Proposal” side.

I found it mildly humorous.

But then, the first time I went diving in the ocean, I knew this Mormon belief was false.

 

[dianaiad]

(regarding attendance at Mass)

Well I could but the daily Mass at my parish is when I’m getting my kids ready and taking the bunch of them to school then it is off to school for my day job (not the same one that once a month interferes with going to Mass. And daily Mass does not replace my Sunday obligation to attend, Saturday evening would but I work every Saturday night.

I think this is one of those ‘ox in the mire’ things that Christ talked about; you know, where intent actually counts?

You would if you could, but you can’t…so–you can’t; but if you and He know that you would rather be there, don’t beat yourself up. Pharisees never were popular with Him, y’know.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think this is one of those ‘ox in the mire’ things that Christ talked about; you know, where intent actually counts?

You would if you could, but you can’t…so–you can’t; but if you and He know that you would rather be there, don’t beat yourself up. Pharisees never were popular with Him, y’know.

Oh I’m not one to beat myself up over stuff, I probably should in some areas Mostly though I just hate working on Sundays!! Even in high-school when there were places to go and things to do on Fridays and Saturdays I preferred to work those rather than Sundays. Sunday is the day to stay home, cozy with family, and recharge for the coming week.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Why does the Mrmon temples have a carpenters sqare, a compass, sun stone, moon stone, a pentigram, all seeing eye, and a beehive? Why no crosses, or statutes of Jesus?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Why?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but…who are you to say what God would have done? He does what HE does. He is Who HE is.

The second I hear someone say 'God wouldn’t do this" or “God would do that,” I begin thinking of the old saying that man created God in his own image; God is OK as long as He does what we want Him to do.

Problem is, if He is God, He will do what He wants to do, and having a 'oh, but God wouldn’t DO that…" is problematic.

And I have no idea why there would be less sin in the world if God proclaimed that we would get our own universes. That makes no sense. God has proclaimed a great many things, and people don’t believe those, why should they believe that?

Diana, please do not take this the wrong way, but I’m apart of the Body of Christ! That’s who I am!

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

My son and I were the lectors at today’s 9:30 mass at St. Callistus in Garden Grove, CA.

I went!!! I always sit right up front!! I love to sit there that way I don’t have any distractions (im very easily distracted…A.D.D.)