Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[dianaiad]

Alisha, I haven’t finished my research yet but from what I recall Joseph Smith was once a Mason and some of the symbols on the Mormon buildings have a Mason origin. And since JS was using seer stones before the BOM the other symbols are related to the occult.

Well, one thing is absolutely certain, Ricko.

You haven’t done your research.

 

[majick275]

Trust me. I’m not too young. I remember the day he was shot, too; where I was, what I was wearing, what I was reading… The point is, he DID get elected, and fifty years later a Mormon couldn’t get anywhere near the White House. FIFTY YEARS.–and his religion played a huge part in that.

Really? Could it be because intolerance is wrong no matter who it is aimed at?

I may frame this. It is priceless. Perhaps you should think about why Americans did not trust JFK? I mean, so many people THOUGHT that he would take orders from the Pope and let Jesuits run the country…

Now why, I wonder, is the assinine nature of the worries about JFK intolerance and evil, but the equally (if not more so) idiotic charges against Mitt Romney are simply people being understandably concerned?

Did you read your own words, here?

You can’t possibly have written this seriously. Not even possibly.

mitt romney’s problems have more to do with his track record of not standing for his professed beliefs than anything…no one will be supported by conservative republicans who has done so much for gay marriage, abortion rights and higher taxes. he has NEVER been anything than a political opportunist who has demonstrated a willingness to prostitute his beliefs whenever necessary. he isn’t a good example of a mormon much less a republican. his problem have VERY little to do with his faith.

 

[PaulDupre]

Well, one thing is absolutely certain, Ricko.

You haven’t done your research.

Really?

Do you deny that Joseph Smith was a Mason? It is in The History of the Church.

Do you deny that the square, the compass, the all-seeing eye and the beehive on the temples are masonic in origin? That is a matter of history.

Do you deny that Joseph used his green seer stone to hunt for treasure before his visits from Moroni? That is well documented and admitted by your leaders.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah, no.

Remember, you got a President elected over fifty years ago. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, would dare to criticize a Catholic politician because of his religion in the USA. Wouldn’t happen.

Well, it is certain that there is the political model here, in UT, where the Mormon politicians don’t make a move without meeting with LDS church representatives to get their stamp of approval. I don’t know why I should believe it would be any different with a Mormon politician who happened to be president.

Other than that, Romney did himself in. By pandering his views to whatever voter block he was trying for. In Mass. it was the democratic, pro-choice, pro-gay group. When he wanted to be pres. all of the sudden he says he is a pro-life republican. It isn’t that he is a Mormon that people didn’t trust him, it is because he obviously is a political opportunist and who know what he would actually do once in office.

However, Mitt Romney’s candidacy was torpedoed by evangelicals, Catholics and just about everybody else BECAUSE of his.

Perhaps this is your anti-Christian view. Anyone I know who didn’t like Romney, it was because he couldn’t answer the same question with a similar answer, today pro-life, the day-before that pro-choice.

Obama was forgiven his twenty year choice of separatist church affiliation, with a preacher who is about as racist a person as I’ve come across…and that was fine. Romney, however…???

Obama’s problem is much more than this.

So, no.

Don’t give me the 'anti-Catholicsm is the last acceptable prejudice." Because it is quite acceptable, politically, culturally and everything else to be Catholic. True, the evangelical Protestant types can get a little intolerant and all, but hey—some of them also dance with snakes and drink poison.

(shrug)

There are PLENTY of anti-Catholic Mormons. Just go hang out with bukowski at MADB, you’ll find plenty of them there.

Now please remember, also, that while the Catholics and the Mormons both campaigned for Prop 8 last fall, the CATHOLICS aren’t being targeted, picketed, audited or even criticized much. Nobody is calling to have Catholic tax exemption denied.

You don’t seem to be up on your Catholic related news. Perhaps you didn’t realize that Catholic charities have shut down in California because of laws passed that require Catholic adoption agencies to adopt children to gay couples. The city of San Francisco has been targeting the Catholic church for far longer than prop 8.

For instance, the Knights of Columbus donated a million dollars to the Yes on 8 fund…nobody has picketed or targeted them. The No on 8 folks produced a commercial portraying two Mormon missionaries invading the home of a lesbian couple, tearing up their marriage license and intimidating them. The Huffington Post is leading a crusade to get the LDS church tax exemption revoked—and nothing even remotely like that is being done to Catholics; a firestorm of epic proportions would erupt if they did, and they know it.

Don’t worry, Catholics are getting our fair share, just, it isn’t being shown on CNN or being talked about by Mormons. To prop 8 specifically, Cathedrals have been picketed and vandalized, mock anthrax letters mailed to Knights of Columbus, Knights of Columbus doing fundraisers for non prop-8 related causes have been asked to leave, etc, etc.

The tax exempt status of the Catholic church is being challenged in many places, both in the US and other parts of the world.

Contrary to the Mormon view of the world against Mormonism, it is the secular world vs the religious world and Mormons are just starting to actually enter this global arena. Take a look at the Catholic news section of this forum.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Re: “Numbers”

We had a talk this evening at our parish by a visiting (missionary) priest. A fact sheet was available at the door for anyone who wanted a copy that listed membership statistics for various faiths as well as when they were founded and by whom. Part of the talk addressed these facts and it was handy to have the sheet to refer to, and to be able to take it home afterwards.

A couple of the more striking facts were these

• Largest number of practicing Christians in the USA ~ Roman Catholic Christians
• 2nd largest number of Christians in the USA ~ non-practicing Roman Catholic Christians

Remarkable.

 

[dianaiad]

mitt romney’s problems have more to do with his track record of not standing for his professed beliefs than anything…no one will be supported by conservative republicans who has done so much for gay marriage, abortion rights and higher taxes. he has NEVER been anything than a political opportunist who has demonstrated a willingness to prostitute his beliefs whenever necessary. he isn’t a good example of a mormon much less a republican. his problem have VERY little to do with his faith.

Notice that all the hoopla about Romney, in the news and everywhere else, was never about hypocrisy.

If he had been, truly, it wouldn’t have been a problem. Look, again, at Harry Reid.Nobody is upset because of his religion; the liberals like him because he’s so far in their camp, and the conservatives hate him for his politics–and even the dumbest of them would figure out that they couldn’t attack Reid’s religion on the same basis as they could Romney’s, even though that religion is the same religion, and both men are very active in it.

Besides, Reid never ran for President. Now THAT would have been entertaining…(shrug)

But this is politics, which is far more volatile a topic than religion, and could go south very, very, very fast.The point is, Romney was taken out because of his religion. The attacks were allowed, encouraged and fanned–and if such a campaign had been launched against a Catholic, all hell would have broken loose.

I believe all here know this.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I just found out that Mormons do believe in abortion. They believe you can have one under 4 different situations. Rape, incest, the mother will die, or the baby will have something wrong with it and not be able to live for very long after it is born. This definitely goes against what scripture says: “Do not do bad so that good can come out of it.”

 

[majick275]

i saw over and over again the news on Romney reporting his many flip flops. the CONSERVATIVES within the republican party opposed him because of what he had done to support abortion, gay marriage and high taxes in Mass. the attacks on religion were few and as you pointed out yourself not applied to Harry Reid. Reid proves that if Romney were a democrat he would have been embraced for his political record. Obama endured more attacks for his religion than Romney

 

[dianaiad]

I just found out that Mormons do believe in abortion. They believe you can have one under 4 different situations. Rape, incest, the mother will die, or the baby will have something wrong with it and not be able to live for very long after it is born. This definitely goes against what scripture says: “Do not do bad so that good can come out of it.”

Actually, we do not encourage abortion if it is a matter of 'the baby will not live very long." We do not oppose it if it is a matter of 'the baby will not live, period." If the baby has no brain, for instance…

Remember, we believe that infants who die at or shortly after birth are pretty much guaranteed all that heaven provides; the Celestial Kingdom.

Personally, I wouldn’t abort if I were raped, but that is a personal decision that I am long past having to consider. Rape victims are not encouraged to abort, but they are not blamed if they do, either; the resulting loss of life is on the head of the rapist. As for incest? Case by case. Most incest is the result of rape, y’know.

As for the other one…that the mother will die?

I’m sorry, but as far as I am aware the Catholics approve of that one, too. If the mother WILL die (as in an ectopic pregnancy or if the child must be delivered too early for the sake of the mother’s life) then the Catholic church has no problem with the idea. In those cases it isn’t a matter of trading one life for the other; it is a case of losing one–or losing both.

To be honest with you, I’m a little on the ‘don’t abort for anything but that the mother will die in five minutes if you don’t and the child isn’t going to survive either way’ side of the issue. The church as a whole is a little more understanding, but not by much.

 

[jblake]

RebeccaJ;:

Well, it is certain that there is the political model here, in UT, where the Mormon politicians don’t make a move without meeting with LDS church

What do you mean “Mormon politicians”? If you’ve paid any attention to Utah politics you know that nothing gets done without the prior approval of the President.(For those who are unfamiliar with Utah politics, I’m not referring to the president of the united states of america.)

jonathon

 

[jblake]

LAMBOFGODGIRLY;:

This definitely goes against what scripture says: “Do not do bad so that good can come out of it.”

Your local Orthodox Rabbi will be glad to point out the errors of your claims about what the Tanakh says. (FWIW, The Orthodox Judaism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have very similar views on when abortion is allowable, and when it is not allowable.)

jonathon

 

[RebeccaJ]

What do you mean “Mormon politicians”?

Mormon state senators who meet in closed door meetings with LDS Church representatives. Emerging from these meetings with legislation. Closed door meetings in UT are ILLEGAL.

If you’ve paid any attention to Utah politics you know that nothing gets done without the prior approval of the President.(For those who are unfamiliar with Utah politics, I’m not referring to the president of the united states of america.)

jonathon

That’s what I said.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Your local Orthodox Rabbi will be glad to point out the errors of your claims about what the Tanakh says. (FWIW, The Orthodox Judaism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have very similar views on when abortion is allowable, and when it is not allowable.)

jonathon

And both are wrong.

 

[jblake]

RebeccaJ;:

Mormon state senators who meet in closed door meetings with LDS Church representatives.

My point was that non-Mormon politicians in Utah do the same thing. It is the Mormon politicians that are more likely to buck the president than the non-Mormon politicians.

jonathon

 

[dianaiad]

What do you mean “Mormon politicians”? If you’ve paid any attention to Utah politics you know that nothing gets done without the prior approval of the President.(For those who are unfamiliar with Utah politics, I’m not referring to the president of the united states of america.)

jonathon

…and in the south, nothing gets done without the approval of the Baptists: in the north-east nothing gets done without the approval of the Lutheran/Anglican block; in ANY part of the nation, little gets done without the approval of the largest block of voters. It’s called “democracy.” That’s how it is supposed to work.

 

[dianaiad]

Mormon state senators who meet in closed door meetings with LDS Church representatives. Emerging from these meetings with legislation. Closed door meetings in UT are ILLEGAL.

That’s what I said.

Do you have an example of such a meeting where the legislators walked in without the legislation, and walked out with it written up and ready to present?

Our national political leaders meet with religious leaders in private all the time…our Cal. Governor S met with many of them. So do our Presidents. So do the governors and legislators of every other state in the union. More than one governor has had an interview with the Pope, for instance, in which the Pope urged some political action or other. That is especially true of Papal interviews with Presidents.

As well, the nature of our religion is such that social and church intercourse is common and expected between us; your church leader is also very likely to be your dentist, physician, tax accountant, lawyer, mechanic, local rancher—even those who no longer work outside the church DID do so up until they were called to the Quorum of the Twelve.

So what I am asking for is something more substantial than the assumption: “well, of course they do all this awful stuff; they are MORMONS, and thus evil, nasty, underhanded manipulative cultists who are automatically guilty of everything they’ve ever been accused of.”

I would like an example of exactly the sort of thing you are accusing us of. You know, a closed door meeting where legislators go in to meet with the President of the church, get their marching orders and come out with legislation written and ready to present.

…and while you are searching for it, you MIGHT, in the interest of fairness, look at the fact that one of the most irritating politicians in the nation, Harry Reid, who is so far left that one more step would have him stepping right off the planet, is not only a Mormon, he’s a ‘good’ Mormon; temple worthy, former bishop, the whole deal.

You would think that if anybody would be taking orders, it would be him—but notice that he is not taking, nor being asked to take, instructions from Salt Lake.

I’d love to strangle the man (metaphorically speaking) because I think his political positions are so off the wall, but he is absolute proof that your accusations against the church and the President of the church are

bunk.

Diana

 

[jblake]

dianaiad;:

That’s how it is supposed to work.

You’ve forgotten that Utah is not a democracy, but a theodemocracy.

jonathon

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’d love to strangle the man (metaphorically speaking) because I think his political positions are so off the wall, but he is absolute proof that your accusations against the church and the President of the church are

bunk.

Diana

Diana, I like how because you believe it, it is so. While calling me a liar all at once.

acluutah.org/03legreport.htm

"Alcoholic Beverage Amendments: SB 153 Passed
As reported by the Salt Lake Tribune on February 3, 2003: “A few months ago, a select group of insiders began the politically perilous task of revamping Utah’s liquor laws. Three major interests were represented: the Utah Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control, the hospitality industry and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

While the content of the liquor law amendments have been controversial and will have a significant impact on clubs and micro-breweries, ACLU constitutional concerns were based upon any violations of open meetings laws. **The public was concerned that no other religious or non-business public groups were invited to participate in the drafting of at least the basic concepts of the new law. **

Apparently in an effort to avoid the issue of illegal meetings, which the DABC has admitted to in the past, no more than two commissioners were ever present at these initial meetings. A GRAMA request for records revealed no explicit evidence of technical wrongdoing on the part of the DABC. The public, however, was once again less than inspired when apprised of the “process.”

 

[mfbukowski]

Paul, even those of us who do not speak Spanish might have figured out that posting a cartoon that calls our beliefs a load of manure (or actually, as my students translate that, a “crock of s***” ) is offensive and worth a response something like the one you got.

If you are going to deal in melodrama and that level of insult, you will have to expect a reaction.

And I thought swearing was not allowed on this forum. I guess it’s ok if it is Spanish.

 

[mfbukowski]

Alisha, I haven’t finished my research yet but from what I recall Joseph Smith was once a Mason and some of the symbols on the Mormon buildings have a Mason origin. And since JS was using seer stones before the BOM the other symbols are related to the occult.

You have it upside down. The “occult” uses apostate practices for symbols revealed by God to man from time immemorial. The “occult” also uses crosses and “black masses”. Using your logic, I could argue that catholicism is satanic because it uses crosses and the same practices as voodoo and black magic.

To adjust for the level of argument here, I am sure it would be prudent to point out that I am not saying that is true, just that one could say that just as validly, which is not at all (validly)

But I am sure you will not understand that either.