Mormon Bishop Sam Young To Be Excommunicated

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Put this it may appear as though it is an innocent matter and I’m sure for some it is. But for many it is not. The LDS do not have any trained clergy, bishops are just men chosen from the ward to lead the congregation for a period of five years. They keep their day jobs as it is a “volunteer” position. These interviews are done on a yearly basis to determine “worthiness” to obtain certain access in the temples. Those who are worthy can have access, those who are not, no access.

Catholic clergy, uniquely set apart to hear Catholic confessions and absolve Catholics of their sexual sins, are required to be sexually continent, and (ideally) shouldn’t have any experience whatsoever in matters sexual. Are they somehow more qualified to serve in this capacity than a Mormon bishop who, while lay, is in fact required to be married and (presumably) has a sex life?

Some of these bishops will ask very suggestive or provocative questions of young people to satisfy their own perverse pleasure or some other nefarious intent. There are actual cases of sexual abuse happening during these interviews.

And some Catholic priests ask sexually provocative questions during confession, and (I shouldn’t even have to point this out given current events) actual cases of sexual abuse are happening in the confessional! Does any of this justify a Catholic refusing to submit to the authentic authority of Peter’s successor until he does something about the seal? Or abolishes the Sacrament of Confession outright?

While I’m sure there are plenty of bishops who do ask tactfully and appropriately, Sam Young is trying to get the LDS to do something about those who don’t.

He’s doing so in a very inappropriate way that looks a lot like grandstanding and using scandal in the LDS Church for his own heterodox goals, not unlike liberal Catholics these days using our own scandals as a front for pushing female ordination (at worst) or abolishing clerical celibacy (at best).

 

[Roguish]

The LDS do not have any trained clergy, bishops are just men chosen from the ward to lead the congregation for a period of five years. They keep their day jobs as it is a “volunteer” position.

You seem to believe lengthy training ensures spiritual prowess and integrity, and prevents misbehavior. (And most in the RCC would agree with you.) I wish this was true, but it isn’t. Lengthy training cannot eradicate bad intent or perverse inclinations, nor can it instill integrity. A man is either inherently suitable for ministry, or he isn’t. You can’t “fix” him with years of training. Is this really still up for discussion?

Some of these bishops will ask very suggestive or provocative questions of young people to satisfy their own perverse pleasure or some other nefarious intent. There are actual cases of sexual abuse happening during these interviews.

If there are, prosecute those specific cases. Don’t indict the principle (of checking whether youngsters’ sexuality is developing in a healthy fashion), because the principle is laudable, as I argued before.

Sam Young is trying to get the LDS to do something about those who don’t.

That’s not the impression I get. It sounds much more like he was trying to draw attention to this practice in general. It doesn’t seem to have been about specific cases.

What kind of religion threatens a man with the loss of his salvation

All serious religions do, including the RCC and LDS both. Religion is about your salvation, and your failure to live up (some day) to God’s golden standard does result in perdition. On this point, there is no difference between the RCC and LDS.

 

[Wannano]

What kind of religion threatens a man with the loss of his salvation, his “eternal” family, his standing in the community, likely his career, because he dares to “not sustain church leaders”? Is that a religion of God? Does God set men to this task? Did God not give us free wIll to choose our way?

These are excellent questions.

They are also echoes of the past…the same questions asked by families of Christian martyrs in the time of the Reformation who did not conform to the dictates of the State churches.

The cries are still heard…

 

[Horton]

This is very much the WRONG DRUM for a Catholic to be beating and you and Chris should see this clearly. I am thrilled to be a member of a church that responds to these problems as the CoJCoLDS has responded. I am also VERY COMFORTABLE with whatever fate befalls Sam Young’s membership. He has been publicly disagreeing with the CoJCoLDS for years it would seem and perhaps should do so as an former LDS. He will still be welcome to worship with me in the local ward anytime (as would you).

Tom -You act as though there is not now nor has there ever been any incident of sexual indiscretion with in the LDS hierarchy. This thread is not about the Catholic Church, it is about the LDS organization. But this response of your is typical of the type of deflection you engage in all the time, it’s SOP for Mormons. You would love nothing more for me to defensive about the Catholic Church and get off topic, but not going to happen.

There is a culture of sexual abuse within the LDS that went unchecked for years. Starting with good old Joe Smith and his child brides all the way to Warren Jeffs and the Kingston Group. (Yes I know those are break off groups. However they claim to practice the religion as JS meant it to be done.)

From my work in the criminal justice system I know for a fact there was a culture within the LDS of covering up sexual abuse of fathers, grandfather, and men in general as long as they were in “good standing” with the church, meaning they paid their 10% and did what they were told. I’ve talked to the victims of this abuse. I’ve talked to the offenders, I’ve talked to the bishops and stake leaders of these abusers who dismissed the damage done to the victims and only worried about the damage being done to the perpetrator by criminal prosecution.

You can deny it all you want Tom. You can deflect with the scandal in the Catholic Church today Tom. But non of that changes the fact when someone calls for action in the LDS church the SOP is to get rid of them. In the early days of Mormonism they used the Danites to get rid of them.

 

[Horton]

But thread is not about what is going on in the Catholic Church. Tom uses that deflection technique often.

 

[Horton]

They are also echoes of the past…the same questions asked by families of Christian martyrs in the time of the Reformation who did not conform to the dictates of the State churches.

And of the true Christian martyrs who refused to denounce the truth of the Catholic Church.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

A couple posters have stated certain things about Bishop Sam Young’s positions without actually stating those positions. The hunger strike was the end of a long effort of trying to get the LDS leadership to listen to him about changing policy on youth interviews. It was born out of the abuses experienced by his own daughters and the stories of thousands of other LDS youth. This is not some small isolated problem.

Over the years Bishop Young has come to see other problems that need to be addressed as well. Here they are in his own words (I added a couple notes for context for those not as familiar with the Mormon church):

Of course, I don’t oppose the church, the apostles or the prophet. Rather, I disapprove of various policies and major decisions that have never been presented as the Law of Common Consent dictates. I use the word disapprove as that’s the phrasing which Jesus used in the revelation found in D&C 124:144.

1. Disregard for the Law of Common Consent. This is a law from God, plainly taught in our scriptures, doctrine and pronouncements by prophets and apostles. Currently, our top leadership is disobeying this commandment. And they are leading the entire church to follow that same disobedience.

2. The November 2015 LGBT policy. If a gay couple gets married, a church court is mandatory. Yet, forcible rape, sexual abuse, and deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities do not automatically trigger church discipline. What kind of a message does that send? Forcible rape…maybe discipline is due. Legal and lawful gay marriage…you’re out here.

(This is not a support statement for a gay agenda, as at least one other poster has claimed. It’s simply showing the inconsistency of how the church disciplines offenses of at least equal gravity.)

3. Children of gay couples are excluded from the most important blessings of the church. Children!!! No baptism. No priesthood. No youth leadership. No youth temple trips. NO HOLY GHOST.

(This is in reference to a recent church policy change that denies blessings to children of gay couples, in effect punishing the kids who have nothing to do with the actions of their parents.)

4. Twelve month waiting penalty if marriages don’t take place in the temple. This penalty only applies in the U.S. and a few other countries. As a result, much hurt and heartbreak happen as parents suffer the humiliation of being excluded from their children’s weddings. In most of the world, marriages are held outside of the temple, allowing all to celebrate this great event. Then the sealing takes place a few days later in the temple.

5. The teaching/doctrine that the prophet can’t lead us astray. I view this as one of the worst and most dangerous elements of our church culture.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

                                    (cont.)

6. Interviews with children, alone, behind closed doors, with an untrained older man about masturbation & other sexual matters without the explicit knowledge and consent of the parents.

7. Nondisclosure of financial dealings. Our finances were open for members’ scrutiny until the 1950’s.

(The LDS church does not disclose any specifics of where the money goes. Members are not given that information).

8. Meddling in politics without presenting the issues for a vote of approval.

9. Keeping secret the policy manuals provided to bishops, stake presidents and seventies. How can we be expected to approve our own policies if they are hidden from us? Why is the church governed with secret statutes unavailable to its membership?

10. Keeping secret the ordinance of the Second Anointing and the fact that it is taking place today in our temples. What is this ordinance? How does one qualify for it? Why is it not open to all? What does this ordinance mean for those receiving it?

11. Use of the wording: Sustain or Oppose during the sustaining process. The words of Christ should be used: Approve or disapprove.

All my best wishes to everyone who votes in this conference. Whether you vote in approval or disapproval, I completely support your right and privilege as a member of the church. Your opinions are important and valid. Jesus is counting on us to express them honestly and openly.

In summary, Sam is a believing member (and a bishop) who saw the problems and was met with nothing but resistance. He’s not some whack-job who decided on a whim to hold a hunger strike to get attention for himself. He went through the proper protocols starting with his local leadership and worked up from there, all to no avail. The whole way the church has only tried to silence him. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, but that’s not the point. The point is if you’re a Mormon and you discover problems going on in the church, your choice is to shut up about it or get kicked out.

 

[TOmNossor]

In summary, Sam is a believing member (and a bishop) who saw the problems and was met with nothing but resistance. He’s not some whack-job who decided on a whim to hold a hunger strike to get attention for himself. He went through the proper protocols starting with his local leadership and worked up from there, all to no avail. The whole way the church has only tried to silence him. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, but that’s not the point. The point is if you’re a Mormon and you discover problems going on in the church, your choice is to shut up about it or get kicked out.

Sam believes SOME THINGS LDS believe. Thus for you he is useful to beat up on the CoJCoLDS.

But concerning the things he believes that you “don’t necessarily agree with,” should he be able to espouse these things, encourage other LDS to espouse these things, encourage LDS to not sustain their leaders because of those things, tell non-LDS to not join the church because of those things, and … All the while claiming to be a believing member being unjustly asked to continue his criticism as a non-member?

It would seem you think such is as it should be.

Or perhaps you just want to beat up on the CoJCoLDS. Maybe so you can focus on some IMO minor possibilities of abuse that have already resulted in CHANGED POLICY instead of focusing on any issues that perhaps exist in your faith?

I submit that those reading this thread can see enough to find your position something they wish would not come from their co-religionist (or for that matter from any Christian). I think your hatred of my faith is blinding you to the obvious read of your words.
Perhaps some introspection is in order.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

What’s taking so long to laicize McCarrick?

Mr. Aquinas,
This thread is about the possibility of abuse in the CoJCoLDS and the wise anti-Mormon Catholics who want to point it out.
Do not ask about this!
Charity, TOm (for the doubter and the ox in my self-conception)

 

[Horton]

Or perhaps you just want to beat up on the CoJCoLDS. Maybe so you can focus on some IMO minor possibilities of abuse that have already resulted in CHANGED POLICY instead of focusing on any issues that perhaps exist in your faith?

You call them minor Tom?

Sexual abuse survivors group of ‘Spotlight’ fame calls on Mormon church to change interview system

Woman says Mormon church failed to report dad's sexual abuse | Fox News

LDS Church could face more lawsuits over abuse and inaction

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Do you still call it minor Tom? I could list article after article to show what is happening in with the LDS. If you take a look at the Wiki article some of those cases are very recent so the steps taken haven’t really been enough have they. In contrast the Penn. Report, most of those cases were pre-2002 when the Catholic Church really took steps to change the way it handled abuse situations.

This information goes right along with what I learned first hand working with sexual predators and their victims in the criminal justice system. The LDS were far more concerned about restoring the criminal’s (man’s) good name and position than anything the victim might need. It was never about protecting past or even future victims, ever.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

Or perhaps you just want to beat up on the CoJCoLDS. Maybe so you can focus on some IMO minor possibilities of abuse that have already resulted in CHANGED POLICY instead of focusing on any issues that perhaps exist in your faith?

You call them minor Tom?

I never called ANY ABUSE minor. You are again not reading. I said “minor possibility of abuse” and was referring to the practice of Bishop’s interviewing youth.

I read all four of your articles and NONE of them had ANY mention of abuse at the hands of a Bishop during the worthiness discussions. NONE!

It is my position that the script used by Bishops NOW during a worthiness interview of the youth, together with its short length (about 15min), together with parents or other adults being right outside the door, together with the invitation to have a parent in the room if the youth requests, … makes for a minor possibility of abuse.

Furthermore, the solution you advocate for the church you hate (see our other current thread) will be IMO more detrimental to youth in that church. These interviews in most cases give youth more guidance towards aligning their sexual mores with the sexual mores taught by the CoJCoLDS (and by the Catholic Church for that matter). The absence of these interviews will cede even more to the culture that is frequently completely opposed to the sexual mores taught by God.

Not that you will not twist my words above anyway, but let me mention two more things. I envision further protection for youth from potential abusive church leaders as society continues to slide. There is great evil in this world and I am a fan of protecting youth from abuse and adults from accusations.

And as I have always said, just one instance of abuse it too much. That does not mean that I will lock my children in padded cells, prevent them from going to school, or do anyone of a thousand things that could lessen the chance of abuse. But, taking precautions is good because one instance of abuse is too much.

Charity, TOm

 

[huck]

Hello Tom,
In the BOM Abinadi (Mosiah 11) is preaching to king Noah and saying things that King Noah didn’t like. King Noah had him killed. What do you think that King Noah should have done?

 

[TOmNossor]

Do you still call it minor Tom? I could list article after article to show what is happening in with the LDS. If you take a look at the Wiki article some of those cases are very recent so the steps taken haven’t really been enough have they. In contrast the Penn. Report, most of those cases were pre-2002 when the Catholic Church really took steps to change the way it handled abuse situations.

This information goes right along with what I learned first hand working with sexual predators and their victims in the criminal justice system. The LDS were far more concerned about restoring the criminal’s (man’s) good name and position than anything the victim might need. It was never about protecting past or even future victims, ever.

You are WRONG about 2002 being some year of virtue for the Catholic sex scandal. Abuse did continue after this and cover up at the highest levels allowed abuse in U.S., Ireland, Australia, Dominican Republic, … Your position IMO is the grossest example of anti-Mormon blinded Catholic bias. I doubt 1 in 50 people would choose the sexual scandals within the Catholic Church over the sexual scandals within the CoJCoLDS. Again one instance of abuse is too much, but your position is gross.

You have linked to articles that accuse the CoJCoLDS of being somehow involved in sexual abuse.

I will not post articles about Catholic sex scandals. EVERYONE KNOWS already what is going on. You should read those articles rather than search for more ones about a church you hate and supposedly are not affiliated with. Or you should be thankful that you have a wonderful parish and no sexual abuse in your life. I cannot speak to your PERSONAL experience with LDS sexual assault victims and the cover up by the CoJCoLDS. Perhaps this “experience” drives you. But I really have no idea how what your doing serves you.

Charity, TOm

 

[TheOldColonel]

What? 23 days without chow? Buy that soldier a burger!

 

[TOmNossor]

Hello Tom,
In the BOM Abinadi (Mosiah 11) is preaching to king Noah and saying things that King Noah didn’t like. King Noah had him killed. What do you think that King Noah should have done?

I have no answer at the ready for this.
I am a 21st century American. I reject monarchs, City of God treatises, and other anti-freedom practices.
That being said, I believe organizations from the CoJCoLDS to American to the Girl Scouts to the 451st Lions club can and should define what it is to be a member of these organizations. They shouldn’t murder non-members or kill folks who once were members, but no longer abide by the membership parameters; but they should set those membership parameters.
Charity, TOm

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Deflection, deflection, deflection. That’s all you do. I recognize the problems in the Catholic Church. You do not recognize the problems going on in the LDS church. You minimize them and deflect, seemingly unwilling and unable to see the truth. You do what most LDS do — blame the person who points out the problems. Attack their credibilty. Make up unsubstantiated accusations about their intentions. Par for the course.

 

[huck]

That being said, I believe organizations from the CoJCoLDS to American to the Girl Scouts to the 451st Lions club can and should define what it is to be a member of these organizations.

The difference I see is the membership is taught and many believe that there are some after life benefits to remaining in the organization. The lions club and girl scouts don’t make this claim.

 

[TOmNossor]

Deflection, deflection, deflection. That’s all you do. I recognize the problems in the Catholic Church. You do not recognize the problems going on in the LDS church. You minimize them and deflect, seemingly unwilling and unable to see the truth. You do what most LDS do — blame the person who points out the problems. Attack their credibilty. Make up unsubstantiated accusations about their intentions. Par for the course.

I have spoken directly to your line of attack on my church in this thread so that is not all I do.

Many Catholics think your line of attack here is astronomically unwise.

The only reason I have not “substantiated” my accusations is because every time I almost type up something about this or that horror in the news, I remember that one I do not wish to destroy your faith and two I do not wish to destroy the faith of those who just read here and three I still feel too icky to parade the recent headlines concerning the LIKELY horrors in the Catholic Church.

I will not make 23 days. In fact the end of my fast for the Catholic Church (which I told two Catholics not on CA - one IRL I would do last week) is just 14-15 hours from now; but I have tried to talk down my Catholic friends from the ledge. One has already had his fast and the other is convinced that the Catholic Church will cleave over this.

The reason that I do not call this Sam Young thing a big deal is because I think the CoJCoLDS leadership has addressed Sam Young’s concerns in a very solid way. Changes have been made that I think will help, the course of action Sam Young demands will make the Church worse and put youth in greater peril, and Sam Young does not believe what LDS believe and more importantly does not do what LDS do so it might be appropriate to formally excommunicate him.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

I asked you a question and it is you who have not addressed it:

But concerning the things he believes that you “don’t necessarily agree with,” should he be able to espouse these things, encourage other LDS to espouse these things, encourage LDS to not sustain their leaders because of those things, tell non-LDS to not join the church because of those things, and … All the while claiming to be a believing member being unjustly asked to continue his criticism as a non-member?

You have not answered. And I stand by my suggestion that all you do is attack and thoughtlessly attack.

Perhaps you could put together a post like this with links to things you have said in 6 or 12 months on this board:

I have a history on this board where I have called LDS problems, problems. LDS strengths, strengths. Catholic problems, problems. And Catholic strengths, strengths (all in last 6 months). I can admit that with the small minority of LDS voices AND my conviction that the CoJCoLDS is more likely to be God’s church on earth based on history, criticism and evidence than Catholicism; I spend more time responding to anti-Mormon Catholics with various responses; but I was just offering some pro-Catholic understanding to the missionaries assigned to our ward today.

It would seem that you cannot do this. If it is pro-Mormon you are against it. Anti-Mormon you are for it. If it is a Catholic problem, you will not admit it or ignore it. If it is a Catholic strength you will embrace it.

This post wasn’t to you, but I think it could have been. Where do you “recognize the problems of the Catholic Church?” as you have claimed you do. Where do you point to LDS strengths?

Every time I think of posting the most horrible accusations I can think of from the current news in response to you or other anti-Mormon Catholics I choose to not do this. What kind of filter do you have that in this climate you would pursue an attack on the sexual “scandal” in the CoJCoLDS? It seems amazing to me.

Charity, TOm