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TOmNossor
Guest
Please show me.TOmNossor:
You are wrong
Charity, TOm
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Charity, TOm
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Chris-Wa1
Guest
Yeah I don’t think they are in any way disparaging home schooling. You read something into it that just isn’t there. This thread is about Mormonism, not the merits of home schooling. And it certainly wouldn’t make sense to make a reference to home schooling in the early 1800s and somehow compare that to today.
Since you said you don’t know much about Mormonism, I will explain what my post actually meant. Mormons often claim that the Book of Mormon must be true because there is no way Joseph Smith had the education necessary to come up with it in his own. The “hint, hint” referred to this specifically, i.e., “hint, hint”-- since JS couldn’t have done it, it must be from God. As I explained in another post, this is a fallacious argument. Those are not the only two options as Mormons would have you believe.
Since you said you don’t know much about Mormonism, I will explain what my post actually meant. Mormons often claim that the Book of Mormon must be true because there is no way Joseph Smith had the education necessary to come up with it in his own. The “hint, hint” referred to this specifically, i.e., “hint, hint”-- since JS couldn’t have done it, it must be from God. As I explained in another post, this is a fallacious argument. Those are not the only two options as Mormons would have you believe.
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TOmNossor
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I concur there are not just two options.
I do not agree that ANY of the options are more likely than that God was involved.
What do you think is more likely than that God was part of the production of the Book of Mormon?
Charity, TOm
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lilypadrees
Guest
Plagiarism and referencing Scripture are two entirely different things, TOm. The Book Of Mormon is not a reference tool for the Bible. If it were, Mormons wouldn’t claim it to be “another testament of Jesus Christ.” Nor would they claim it, along with their church president’s words, “more important than the Bible.”
The Book Of Mormon is nothing more than the wild imaginings of your religion’s founder who, according to his own mother, had an overly active imagination. Much of what would later become the Book Of Mormon were stories he told his mother. The rest? Various things he lifted from the Bible (the BOM’s “Book Of Abraham,” for instance), claiming they were “revealed” to him.
Mormons claim to need the BOM to explain the Bible to them. Why not just read the Bible itself?
Anyone who wants to understand the Bible needs only to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as they read the Bible.
Your church, your whole religion, is built on lies and claims made by your founder, Joseph Smith, who wasn’t satisfied with the teachings of churches already in existence at the time. How sad that he continues to con so many today.
Stephen168
New member
The claim is that there was never a “Great Apostasy.”
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Ephesians 5:22-32
Acts 9:1-5 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
1 Timothy 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Matthew 18:17-18 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Acts 20:28 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mormons quote Micheal Winters, “[This later meaning of the expression is more suitable to the idea of an active onslaught such as is envisaged in the passage in question, and] although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.” Then claim there was a Great Apostasy.
There was no Great Apostasy and too view a verse from the Book of Matthew as the Catholic Church triumphs over evil would support that fact. No Mormon has shown that Michael Winter believes in the Great Apostasy.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Ephesians 5:22-32
Acts 9:1-5 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
1 Timothy 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Matthew 18:17-18 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Acts 20:28 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mormons quote Micheal Winters, “[This later meaning of the expression is more suitable to the idea of an active onslaught such as is envisaged in the passage in question, and] although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.” Then claim there was a Great Apostasy.
There was no Great Apostasy and too view a verse from the Book of Matthew as the Catholic Church triumphs over evil would support that fact. No Mormon has shown that Michael Winter believes in the Great Apostasy.
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TOmNossor
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You have not shown me that what I CLAIM is false. Here is what I said and how you responded:
Stephen168, I am not wrong. You have misunderstood me. Michael Winter claims that Horton and other Catholic apologists are misusing Matthew 16:18.TOmNossor:
You are wrong
Michael Winter doesn’t claim Joseph Smith restored God’s church (or that a restoration was needed). He claims that those who trumpet that if there was an apostasy/falling away (see 2 Thes. 2:3 or Amos 8:11 or other scriptures), Jesus lied in Matthew 16:18 do not understand Matthew 16:18.
He is correct. Matthew 16:18 does not apply “to the survival of the church” like some Catholic writers claim.
Horton claimed it was taken out of context and I wouldn’t provide the context, you Stephen168 agreed. I provided the context which proved it was not taken out of context, and both of you didn’t respond.
Horton has now claimed that Michael Winter is some fringe author only quoted by LDS. This is also false.
You have claimed that the claim I supported with Michael Winter’s argument is false, but you have only shown a claim I didn’t make about Michael Winter is false.
Can you acknowledge your errors here?
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
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The BOM quotes long sections of the Old Testament and actually parts of the New Testament too.lilypadrees:
Plagiarism and referencing Scripture are two entirely different things, TOm. The Book Of Mormon is not a reference tool for the Bible. If it were, Mormons wouldn’t claim it to be “another testament of Jesus Christ.” Nor would they claim it, along with their church president’s words, “more important than the Bible.”
The Book Of Mormon is nothing more than the wild imaginings of your religion’s founder who, according to his own mother, had an overly active imagination. Much of what would later become the Book Of Mormon were stories he told his mother. The rest? Various things he lifted from the Bible (the BOM’s “Book Of Abraham,” for instance), claiming they were “revealed” to him.
Mormons claim to need the BOM to explain the Bible to them. Why not just read the Bible itself?
Anyone who wants to understand the Bible needs only to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as they read the Bible.
Your church, your whole religion, is built on lies and claims made by your founder, Joseph Smith, who wasn’t satisfied with the teachings of churches already in existence at the time. How sad that he continues to con so many today.
It like the New Testament does not always claim to be quoting from the Bible.
It like the New Testament does not ever use footnotes or proper citations.
That is my point.
LDS claim that the BOM is a book of scripture, but we do in fact read the Bible. Biblical literacy is higher among LDS than it is among Catholics.
I would also suggest your “nothing more than …” comment is refuted by the numerous non-LDS who have studied the Book of Mormon in great detail. Three of whom I provided to you above.
Charity, TOm
Stephen168
New member
Correct, which is the claim of Horton. There was never a Great Apostasy.
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TOmNossor
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Horton’s claim was that Matthew 16:18 means that if God does not lie there was no apostacy.TOmNossor:
Correct, which is the claim of Horton. There was never a Great Apostasy.
I refuted this claim by explaining that Matthew 16:18 per Michael M. Winter, 2 other Catholic authors, and virtually EVERY non-Catholic author who has ever written about it does not mean what Horton claimed it meant.
Horton didn’t dispute the CLEAR reading of what I provide, but instead claimed it was “taken out of context” and that I “would not provide the context.” You agreed with Horton.
I responded that unlike most of the other things I provide and are accused of being “taken out of context” for no reason IMO, I had not read Winter’s book. I said I would find it and read it and provided the context. I did, showing both parts of Horton’s claim false. You and Horton didn’t acknowledge your error then.
Horton made a similar claim in this thread and so I pointed back to the previous thread.
Horton has now claimed:
This is a remarkable claim because in the thread from one year ago, I mentioned Butler, Dahlgren, and Hess’s book AND Stephen K. Ray’s book where I had encountered Michael M. Winter. Horton must have not read my comment and not read these very popular Catholic apologetic books.
I have shown that Michael M. Winter is not some nobody only quoted by LDS (though I can acknowledge that few Catholic scholars if ANY have EVER addressed his points on Matthew 16:18)
You are now misreading what I have been claiming and calling me wrong to use Winter. This does not address what I am claiming and what Winter claims concerning Matthew 16:18.
I reproduce the above because it IMO demonstrates that the intellectual certainty you and Horton claim for your beliefs is not based in solid intellectual practice in this case and likely in MANY cases (some of which I have mentioned before). That doesn’t make your faith-based hopes wrong. It just means that your intellectual certainty should not be relied upon and your criticism of my intellectual position is not based on reading and understanding.
Charity, TOm
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Stephen168
New member
There was never a Great Apostasy and Micheal Winter agrees. As he said, the Church will always triumph over evil. The only apostasy I find in the New Testament is recorded in John 6:22-69; John 6:66 specifically.
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Horton
Guest
My dismissive attitude is only toward the LDS, a tradition I know to be a false and self serving “religion”. My dismissive attitude is toward your many attempts to try to prove me wrong, when it is impossible to do so. My dismissive attitude has nothing whatsoever to do with my absolute intellectual certainty in the truth of the Catholic Church. You just can’t stand the idea that a mere woman would dare to refute you in such a manner as this.
I have said many times I cannot understand how a believing Christian can leave Christianity for the LDS. For a Catholic to leave Catholicism for the LDS only tells me that the persons ego was to big to submit to the will of God and they never really internalized the truth & beauty of Catholicism. There can be no other reasons. I’m sure there are hundred’s of excuses, but no other reasons.
I have said many times I cannot understand how a believing Christian can leave Christianity for the LDS. For a Catholic to leave Catholicism for the LDS only tells me that the persons ego was to big to submit to the will of God and they never really internalized the truth & beauty of Catholicism. There can be no other reasons. I’m sure there are hundred’s of excuses, but no other reasons.
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Chris-Wa1
Guest
I’ve already stated that information several times on this and other threads.
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Horton
Guest
God did not play any part in the production of the fictional BoM.
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TOmNossor
Guest
Horton,
Anyone can see what is above and judge for themselves. “Horton” does not communicate your gender, I have some vague memory of someone, probably you, correcting me for assuming you were male; but when another Catholic references you gender neutral, I began to doubt my memory.
You are welcome to consider my negative assessment of the quality of your intellectual arguments to be a product of your gender. It is not.
God bless!
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
Guest
The only thing I found was your speaking very positively of Grant Palmer. Am I to assume that you agree with him?
I read his book a second time (or almost a second time as I had at least read most of it long ago) about a year ago.
So do you believe that Joseph Smith concocted the plan for the Book of Mormon due to his familiarity with The Golden Pot?
If I have not gotten the correct, “Neither Joseph did it nor did God” theory, please elaborate.
Charity, TOm
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BrentS
Guest
No, the gates of hell will not ultimately prevail according to the Roman Catholic interpretation of that Scripture but that interpretation is patently false. The true interpretation is that the Gates of hell cannot stop from being penetrated by it as happened in The Gospel of Nicodemus. The Scriptures support the Great apostasy "I ceased not to warn you day and night with tears Paul says in one place, Grievous wolves shall enter in among you not sparing the flock the scriptures say in another. In yet another place the Scriptures say that the man of sin cannot be revealed unless there shall be a falling away first. That falling away is the Great apostasy, but you shouldn’t take my word for it…please do your own research.
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Horton
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There is no Gospel of Nicodemus and the interpretation used by the Roman Catholic Church is absolutely correct. The scriptures say many things, many times the LDS twist and bend those scriptures, adding words, taking out words, or completely changing them to fit a narrative that fits with Joseph Smith fictional Mormonism.The beauty of the New Testament is the way it describes fully the Catholic faith, all taken together, from the four gospels to the letters, it is the Catholic faith. To make it fit in with Joe’s Great Deception the LDS have to twist and bend it to suit.
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Mi_Rose
Guest
Gospel of Nicodemus?
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GKMotley
Guest
Also listed in James’ APOCRYPHAL NEW TESTAMENT, which is where I always look first for such things.
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Horton
Guest
But there is NOT a gospel of Nicodemus in the canon of the bible therefore it is not scripture.
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