Mormon Church Trying to Keep the Wheels On

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gazelam said:
Read the CES letter responses if you want to understand why it’s wrong
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These are all by LDS “scholars.” I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t put stock in their explanations, especially when their most rational explanation for horses in the Book of Mormon (horses that weren’t in the Americas at all at that point in time) as tapirs. I’m sorry if I come across as angry, but I’ve explained myself to LDS folks “concern-trolling” far too much to have patience for it anymore.

Here’s some refutement of the CES letter “debunking” if you care to read it. God bless you as well.
 
Right. And you aren’t alone either. No one who isn’t LDS listens to LDS “scholars”.

And no, the church isn’t growing. While it might be “accurate” that the church isn’t shrinking, more and more young people are leaving the church and yes, wards are closing left and right. Sorry.
 
giddyromilly said:
These are all by LDS “scholars.” I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t put stock in their explanations, especially when their most rational explanation for horses in the Book of Mormon (horses that weren’t in the Americas at all at that point in time) as tapirs.
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Sometimes you just have to ignore those silly LDS scholars and do a google search or two, and, Voila, you find there were horses in California before the Spanish Conquest. See Centuries-old bones of horses unearthed in Carlsbad
giddyromilly said:
I’m sorry if I come across as angry,
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No problem, we’re all CAFers here.
giddyromilly said:
but I’ve explained myself to LDS folks “concern-trolling” far too much to have patience for it anymore.
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I failed my Concern Trolling 101 course, so I just stick to my usual persistent debate trolling. It’s the best I can do. 😏

Anyway, my poor attempt at humor aside, you have a friend in Christ, Who is the Bishop of your soul. (1 Peter 2:25) I hope you find the divine peace you are seeking.
 
gazelam said:
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giddyromilly:
These are all by LDS “scholars.” I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t put stock in their explanations, especially when their most rational explanation for horses in the Book of Mormon (horses that weren’t in the Americas at all at that point in time) as tapirs.
Click to expand...
Sometimes you just have to ignore those silly LDS scholars and do a google search or two, and, Voila, you find there were horses in California before the Spanish Conquest. See Centuries-old bones of horses unearthed in Carlsbad
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:roll_eyes:“Radiocarbon dating of 340 years, plus or minus 40 years, puts the death of the horse sometime between 1625 and 1705“

(In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.)
 
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In any case, it’s not about the 350 yr-old horse bones. It’s about the church changing it’s teaching on how the plates were translated (pretty important!) in order to stay ahead of the negative press. It’s about the Book of Abraham being translated from what was actually the Book of the Dead, something buried with every Egyptian mummy. It’s about the church trying to mitigate THAT giant gaping hole by claiming that Joseph translated the Book of Abraham through the book of the dead by proxy. Something that the actual Joseph himself never claimed. It’s about Joseph going to prison, not because he was a sad persecuted prophet, but because he destroyed a printing press saying bad things about him (which violates the first amendment, remember?). It’s about him marrying a fourteen year old girl. It’s about him sending men off on missions so he could take their wives. It’s about him isolating his members so that he could milk them for all they were worth (a common cult tactic).

The horse is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Maybe the horses had a time machine.
Soryy for the attempt at humor. I have met some lovely Mormons. I just can’t get past the same old arguments by the same few Mormons on here.
 
The accusations you are making are quite vague in some cases, making it difficult to know what to respond to.
giddyromilly said:
It’s about the church changing it’s teaching on how the plates were translated (pretty important!) in order to stay ahead of the negative press.
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From what to what? If you’re referring to the Church not mentioned the Prophet using a seer stone to translate the B of M, I refer you to this (1974), this (1988), and this (1993). Otherwise, what are you referring to?
giddyromilly said:
It’s about the Book of Abraham being translated from what was actually the Book of the Dead, something buried with every Egyptian mummy. It’s about the church trying to mitigate THAT giant gaping hole by claiming that Joseph translated the Book of Abraham through the book of the dead by proxy.
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It’s well known that a portion of the Joseph Smith papyri is missing. (See Joseph Smith Papyri - Wikipedia) The Church published the fact of the Book of the Dead being part of the papyri in 1968. (See Book of Abraham/Joseph Smith Papyri/Church disclosure of "Book of the Dead" - FAIR)
giddyromilly said:
It’s about Joseph going to prison, not because he was a sad persecuted prophet, but because he destroyed a printing press saying bad things about him (which violates the first amendment, remember?).
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The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was approved by the Nauvoo City Council, which Council included non-Mormons. Also, until the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, the 1st Amendment was often applied to Federal matters only, not state and local concerns.
giddyromilly said:
It’s about him marrying a fourteen year old girl.
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This may offend 21st century sensibilities, but was more common in the 19th century American frontier. See https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/assessing-the-criticisms-of-early-age-latter-day-saint-marriages/
giddyromilly said:
It’s about him sending men off on missions so he could take their wives.
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Who? Please name names.
giddyromilly said:
It’s about him isolating his members so that he could milk them for all they were worth (a common cult tactic).
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Please identify those isolated by Joseph Smith so that he could specifically take advantage of them.
 
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Is there any documentation other than the Book of Mormon that Jesus actually visited the Americas? The LDS church has grown a lot in this area and it has been interesting to study.
 
gazelam said:
From what to what? If you’re referring to the Church not mentioned the Prophet using a seer stone to translate the B of M, I refer you to this (1974), this (1988), and this (1993). Otherwise, what are you referring to?
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Well that’s funny, because when I was in Sunday school it was taught that Joseph Smith translated at a table opposite whoever was taking down citation that day, with a sheet hung between them.
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You can find actual documentation of that here.
gazelam said:
It’s well known that a portion of the Joseph Smith papyri is missing.
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Oh, how convenient.
gazelam said:
The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was approved by the Nauvoo City Council, which Council included non-Mormons. Also, until the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, the 1st Amendment was often applied to Federal matters only, not state and local concerns.
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You got a reference for this? Even Wikipedia doesn’t think too highly of Joseph destroying the press… or, as he called it, “a public nuisance.”
gazelam said:
This may offend 21st century sensibilities, but was more common in the 19th century American frontier.
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I can’t believe I have to explain that pedophilia is and always has been wrong, but he not only married a 14 yr old girl, but blackmailed her into it. Apparently “Smith gave Helen 24 hours to respond to this request. The girl consented only after Smith explained to her that it would ensure her eternal salvation, along with that of her family.”
gazelam said:
Who? Please name names.
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“Henry Bailey Jacobs whose wife Zina was married to both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; having a child with the latter. This is also true with Windsor Lyon, whose wife (Sylvia Sessions Lyon) Joseph Smith slept with and impregnated while Windsor and Sylvia were still legally and lawfully husband and wife.”
As for the isolating, I’m pretty sure leaving New York and setting up in Nauvoo, Kirkland, and other places counts as pretty remote. You’ll say that it’s because of “religious persecution,” but from the prior evidence I gave you (that you could’ve easily found yourself), it’s because Smith was a shady shifter who was running from retribution.

I think I’ve explained myself enough. I’m out of the church. I’m not trying to convince you to leave. I just want to be left alone.
 
Also, if you’d like to know why each time you look up anything contrary about the LDS church you get met with Church-sanctioned listicles and articles, this is why. SEO on this scale costs a lot of money (I work in this field, which is how I know), and the church makes the lions share of its money through tithing from its members. It doesn’t take a genius to put two and two together.

So consider this the next time you question something about the church and head to google - the first page of results probably won’t have what you’re looking for.
 
From what I have researched is tithing mandatory? If so, I assume this requirement is only backed up by what Joseph Smith said was revealed to him? Does the Church look at your tax returns to base how much you should tithe?
 
It’s not mandatory but you can’t get into a temple without being a “full tithe payer”. So there is a lot shame for those who can’t pay a full tithe. So in theory, if you aren’t a “full tithe payer” and you want to see your daughter get married in a temple, you better pay up. It’s disgusting.
 
Tithing is mandatory if you want to hold what is called a temple recommend, which is needed to enter their temples. Being “temple worthy” is the goal of any true believing Mormon (TBM)
Tithing is mentioned in the OT. Malachi? perhaps.
Jesus taught that the widow’s mite was even more valuable.
No, they don’t, or at least they are not suppose to see your tax returns. It’s on the honor system. I have heard of a few cases, however, where that was not the case.
I am a former Mormon. I was never asked to show my tax returns
 
Great information, thank you. The LDS church seems to keep growing by leaps and bounds around here, new temples going up pretty regularly. They are out pounding pavement and aggressively looking to evangelize. Appears to be working for them.
 
I am too. The bishop never asked how my finances were, but he never really had to do some serious investigation to see I wasn’t exactly in fat city.
 
I’ve never been to Utah. I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they have good intentions. I don’t like that they close off the services to outsiders.
 
The temple ordinances are not really “services”. They are rites, ordinances. for lack of a better term. They have recently begun to call them “sacraments” I think in order to use a more understood term by others, but they aren’t sacraments in the way that Catholics mean

And you only go thru once for yourself. Everytime there after, you go in proxy for someone who has died.

It’s what they call “redeeming the dead”.
 
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