Mormon Church Trying to Keep the Wheels On

[RebeccaJ]

I think the “fade away into oblivion” idea is a fantasy of former Mormons. One that I held for a long time. But as I age into the eldest generation in my family, the reality is, the first, second and third generations are remaining Mormon and raising their children as such. For people like my family, the leadership of the Mormon Church would have to tell them to leave, in order for them to get any idea that leaving was even an option.

 

[OKComputer]

I think you are partially right, the church isn’t going anywhere tomorrow. But it is going through a long, slow collapse, especially in American and Europe, where the money is.

 

[TOmNossor]

it is going through a long, slow collapse

Or perhaps I am correct.
The arguments against the church have been chosen over the last 180+ years for their impact on those who are uninformed and/or prone to emotional rejection of truth.

The uninformed are two groups:

1. Those who do not know the history and are then shocked when it is not as they expected. There are a lot of faithful LDS who have no idea some of the problems with LDS truth claims. These people exist in all faith structures and this is part of the reason the number of “nones” is increasing. As a religion that asks a lot of its members, is very connected to its history, and uses historical figures to teach lessons in ways most faiths do not (Catholicism is partially like most faiths and partially like the CoJCoLDS here); this history with warts and virtue is a larger issue for the CoJCoLDS.
2. Those who learn of the warts and evidence no appreciation for the fuller picture. These are folks who read on RFM that there is no truth to the fact that frontier marriages were often at younger ages and believe it. When shown the evidence they had been deceived, they move on to other things. These are folks who are unaware of or dismiss Nahom, the fact that “what Joseph pulled off was a level of genius that puts him in the maybe top 3 or 4 most incredible acts of intelligence and cohesiveness” (as stated by former believer who left for emotional reasons which I will mention shortly), the incredible-ness of the witness statements as a whole, and many other things.
   As I stated a few days ago, I have little reason to believe there is greater historical knowledge possessed by the critics of my faith here than I and many other possess. It is not true that investigation of the issues produces unbelief.

Emotional rejection of truth:
C.S. Lewis, “Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods.”
Above referenced critic (nobody who posts here) made if very clear that the lack of acceptance for the LGBT lifestyle within the CoJCoLDS was the issue that broke his faith. Before this he claimed to be “strengthening feeble knees.” This compassion for the plight of LGBT folks is admirable, but the issue is not so simple as he frames it and his framing of it is 95%+ emotional. I have recently become convinced that this emotional connection to LGBT acceptance, female priesthood, and other cultural issues is a large part of why folks leave the CoJCoLDS.
I have scarcely considered it possible that there’s no God, and I have long been convinced that despite the plethora of problems I find with Catholic truth claims, I would be Catholic (again) where I not a LDS. I have reasons I reject the emotional pulls our culture invites us to embrace, but I cannot reject God and most of the cultural relativism I am invited to embrace I couldn’t in good faith embrace as a Catholic anyway.

So, the CoJCoLDS will be impacted by the cultural trends as have all faiths, but the view that it has hidden its history and the cold light of day will cause its collapse is fantasy.
Charity, TOm

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think you are partially right, the church isn’t going anywhere tomorrow. But it is going through a long, slow collapse, especially in American and Europe, where the money is.

The appeal to the ambition of becoming gods is probably stronger than we think.

 

[TOmNossor]

OKComputer:

I think you are partially right, the church isn’t going anywhere tomorrow. But it is going through a long, slow collapse, especially in American and Europe, where the money is.

The appeal to the ambition of becoming gods is probably stronger than we think.

Rebecca,
This is a remarkable suggestion. First, it is clear to any right thinking individual that if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not God’s church, then the teachings espoused by her are no guarentee of divinization.
Second, if Catholic teachings are true and I am not “invincibly ignorant,” I burn in hell for an eternity.

I have learned about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Catholic Church. I cannot explain the creation of the Book of Mormon and the restoration in the 19th century with the secular explanations offered here. I can explain how God is both present in Catholicism and yet the fullness is missing and God leads the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from a LDS perspective. After these intellectual arguements have pointed me to the CoJCoLDS, I can look at my spiritual experience for God’s will in my life. This leaves me as a LDS.

So, right thinking individuals do not hold on to error because the error if true promises great rewards. Right thinking individuals do not reject truth knowing that it is truth and that the rejection of it results in eternal damnation.

Do you really think this is how LDS think, especially those who have weighed these issues for close to 20 years?
Charity, TOm

 

[Horton]

It is extremely difficult for “right thinking” individuals to comprehend how those in the LDS hold on to the errors in that teaching. Especially those who have been exposed to the the truth and have rejected it on the pain of hell.

Do you really think this is how LDS think, especially those who have weighed these issues for close to 20 years?

Many of us do believe this is about the reward for the LDS. The power of being a god. For Christians all we desire is to be in the presence of God, the beatific vision, not to rule anything, to let go of worries, cares, concerns, and just be, no one higher or lower than the other, all souls equally beautiful with God. But that is not how the LDS see it. They see a ruling class hierarchy continuing the same sort of subjugation that is here on earth. That is not heaven.

 

[AngelaMarie]

For Christians all we desire is to be in the presence of God, the beatific vision, not to rule anything, to let go of worries, cares, concerns, and just be, no one higher or lower than the other, all souls equally beautiful with God. But that is not how the LDS see it. They see a ruling class hierarchy continuing the same sort of subjugation that is here on earth. That is not heaven.

A-men…and to 10 characters

 

[TOmNossor]

It is extremely difficult for “right thinking” individuals to comprehend how those in the LDS hold on to the errors in that teaching. Especially those who have been exposed to the the truth and have rejected it on the pain of hell

As I mentioned above a critic recently acknowledged that with the Book of Mormon was “what Joseph pulled off was a level of genius that puts him in the maybe top 3 or 4 most incredible acts of intelligence and cohesiveness”

This was his view 2 years ago as he shared supposedly faithful ways to deal with the problems many of us know about.

Then his certainty that he was right concerning LGBT issues and the church was hurting people who he spoke with and had compassion for, became what seemed to be the reason he decided to discard it all. He still just days ago mentioned his “acts of intelligence” comment.

There is no problem with the truth claims of the CoJCoLDS without solutions that are intellectually more solid than the idea that Joseph Smith could produce an act of extraordinary genius such as the BOM. Nothing in Joseph’s pre-calling life (and really not anything after) indicate that he was a genius further more a once in a generation universal genius. All the problems piled high and doubled do not come close to overcoming this.

You may not agree, but surely you can comprehend this view. It is the one I hold.

Charity, TOm

 

[Horton]

What you just said changed nothing. A “critic” said? What in the world does that matter. One person made a remark that JS was a genius. That does not make him so. It only makes it a “critic’s” opinion.

The BOM is a work of fiction that is highly plagiarized from other works. The world outside the LDS believe this. Now I know you (and the other TBM) will throw out those obscure meaningless quotes taken out of context and try to claim they are proof but in reality the Christian world knows the BOM is not the word of God.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

Do you really think this is how LDS think, especially those who have weighed these issues for close to 20 years?

Many of us do believe this is about the reward for the LDS. The power of being a god. For Christians all we desire is to be in the presence of God, the beatific vision, not to rule anything, to let go of worries, cares, concerns, and just be, no one higher or lower than the other, all souls equally beautiful with God. But that is not how the LDS see it. They see a ruling class hierarchy continuing the same sort of subjugation that is here on earth. That is not heaven.

Again, only a fool would hold onto a theological promise given by an organization they know is false.
I also fail to see how this is not simply obvious.

My intellect solidly tells me that the CoJCoLDS is God’s church and that numerous problems within the Catholic Church (such as the absence of continued Public Revelation and the succession issues from Peter) indicate that the restoration is a reasonable idea. That being said I am not so arrogant as to suggest that I possess an infallilible intellect.
So my question to you and other Catholics, is your intellect so perfected that through it alone you know you are right and I am wrong?
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

The BOM is a work of fiction that is highly plagiarized from other works. The world outside the LDS believe this.

This is the main reason I have always known that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are not who Joseph Smith claimed they were. And the fact that Mormonism is anti-Catholic at its foundation.

Mormons believe in continuing public revelation while some Mormons want to believe Mormonism is rational. They want to believe it is rational, but reject philosophy (reason).

I recently had a Mormon say he rejects the Mormon belief that The Father has a father, but then claimed the Father was never a man like us because he came to be the same way Christ did, so he was always divine. I guess he forgot that Christ was begotten by the Father, and he said he rejected the belief that the Father had a father. Maybe a step toward orthodoxy and reason, but a step away from Mormon revelation, and still irrational. Public revelation is contrary to reason.

Public revelation has been rejected by Christianity for centuries.

 

[BrentS]

What the Mormons were an offshoot of a church that has the fullness of the truth and is not Roman Catholic and this church was known as RLDS? And what if all RLDS were not Community of Christ either? What if the fullness of the everlasting Gospel and the Priesthood were no longer in the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

What if my aunt was my uncle?

 

[Horton]

Again, only a fool would hold onto a theological promise given by an organization they know is false.
I also fail to see how this is not simply obvious

Ditto

So my question to you and other Catholics, is your intellect so perfected that through it alone you know you are right and I am wrong?

Yes, it is. I am right in my belief in the Catholic Church and you are wrong in your belief in the LDS.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

So my question to you and other Catholics, is your intellect so perfected that through it alone you know you are right and I am wrong?

Yes, it is. I am right in my belief in the Catholic Church and you are wrong in your belief in the LDS.

I think this is a remarkable position for you to take.

It was only about 1 year ago when you (and another Catholic poster) were denying Catholic dogma and I (and/or another LDS) were/was correcting you on this very board. A Catholic priest did chime in and support what was said by me.

I guess this is perhaps about volume of learning, but it should IMO give you pause when you suggest that you are certain based solely on your intellectual knowledge and assessment.

As I was saying then, these issues are not near so simple as most people on either side boldly declare.

I recently applauded a Catholic on the LDS message board who was certain of his faith while acknowledging he could not explain the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. That being said, I doubt he would make the assertions you have.

I see no reason I should be swayed by your certainty with respect to my errors, but I will continue to recognize my limitations and try to learn more.

Charity, TOm

 

[OKComputer]

Smith Jr wrote the BOM himself. He stole it from various sources. It’s not divine or special in any way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Eternal progression” is one I see cited often by Mormons when contemplating, “why stay?”.

I suspect you would include it in “fullness”.

Otherwise, the context of your quote of what I said is a conversation regarding why or why not the Mormon church could fail. Not a commentary on any one person’s experience. Eternal progression is a favored doctrine for Mormons. I don’t see that Mormons want to give up the idea that they are going to be gods. That ambition is behind everything Mormons do.

 

[TOmNossor]

Smith Jr wrote the BOM himself. He stole it from various sources. It’s not divine or special in any way.

I disagree.

I cannot know the volumes of data you have considered to make this assessment, but I find it vert unlikely that your assessment is a product of MORE data than I have considered.

It was once common for critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to assert that Joseph Smith was a simpleton and thus there was nothing to the Book of Mormon. Serious critics no longer assert this. Those who have studied it from the outside today almost ALL assert there is something remarkable about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. Volumes have been written by non-LDS that attempt to plumb the depths of the Book of Mormon.

I think the it likely your position is a product of superficial interaction with the book OR bias. Of course, I am biased too.
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, it is. I am right in my belief in the Catholic Church and you are wrong in your belief in the LDS.

I completely agree.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Jockers study says it all.