Mormon claims Jesus' words in Bible are just hearsay

[BartBurk]

I recently had a discussion with a Mormon who won’t accept the doctrine of the Real Presence because the sayings of Jesus in the New Testament are just “hearsay” until you pray about it and have the Holy Ghost confirm it. So if the Holy Ghost doesn’t confirm the “hearsay” then it can’t be trusted. This reminds me of Thomas Paine’s arguments against Christianity in his book “Age of Reason.” This Mormon does not seem to believe that either scripture or tradition can be trusted it at all. This person is an active believing Mormon, but sure doesn’t seem to have any idea what faith is about.

 

[Allweather]

Yes, I’ve had a few discussions with Mormons in which they waffle about the meanings of the Bible. They will give chapter and verse along with their own strange interpretations, but as soon as they’re confronted with chapter and verse that clearly contradicts their beliefs, then they start waffling, saying that the NT is corrupt and incomplete, etc.

It certainly seems as if many Mormons, if not all of them, have built their house on shifting sand.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yep, the existence of Mormonism depends completely on the bible being corrupt and untrustworthy. Their prophets and apostles have always taught this. They must hold this position because Joseph Smith’s teachings completely contradict the bible.

Paul

 

[BartBurk]

Yep, the existence of Mormonism depends completely on the bible being corrupt and untrustworthy. Their prophets and apostles have always taught this. They must hold this position because Joseph Smith’s teachings completely contradict the bible.

Paul

But if the Bible is just hearsay, why should we believe any of it including the teachings on the resurrection? How is Joseph Smith’s vision anymore hearsay than the Bible? I never saw God the Father and Jesus visiting Joseph Smith – that’s only what Joseph claimed so that is hearsay too. Just pray about it? Am I an infallible being who can even trust the answers I supposedly get to my own prayers?

 

[PaulDupre]

Exactly, which is why I can say that Mormons don’t believe the bible. Either the bible contains exactly what God wanted it to contain or it’s worthless. If the LDS believe that the bible teaches falsehood about the nature of God (trinity, never was or will be any other God), the nature of marriage (one man, one woman), the completeness of the atonement (the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin), etc.,etc. then they should not use it for any purpose.

Paul

 

[hosemonkey]

Exactly, which is why I can say that Mormons don’t believe the bible. Either the bible contains exactly what God wanted it to contain or it’s worthless. If the LDS believe that the bible teaches falsehood about the nature of God (trinity, never was or will be any other God), the nature of marriage (one man, one woman), the completeness of the atonement (the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin), etc.,etc. then they should not use it for any purpose.

Paul

Ya gotta remember, Mormonism is a false religion made up out of whole cloth by Joseph Smith and embellished by his successors. Even a cursory study of Mormonism will reveal that the foundation of their religion (the Book of Mormon) is plagarized heavily from the King James version of the Bible and has no basis at all in scientific archeological or historical fact. The mormon church has spent millions of dollars in an effort to prove the BOM, nothing has turned up, at all. Mormonism MUST prove that the Church that Christ Himself founded has fallen into error and required reformation by the likes of Joseph Smith, a convicted con-man and swindler. It takes a lot more than a “Burning in the bosom” to make a credible case.So far, mormonism has been unable to prove it’s claims. I am willing to bet the ranch that they never will.

 

[Allweather]

I’ve often gotten the impression that Mormons only use the Bible because it makes them seem more Christian. Once you get beyond skin deep into their arguments, they almost never refer to the Bible anymore, but pretty much completely to their own “modern scriptures.”

My fiance told me awhile back that she remembers seeing her father, at some point after joining the Mormon church, throw out all the Bibles in the house. He’s told me directly more than once that the Bible is virtually worthless.

 

[pismopal]

Discussions about personal experiences with Mormons always interest me because they are always so strange. The Holy Bible seems to be no more than a prop for them but the real bottom line is the Mormon belief that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, as are the succeeding presidents of their sect. My cousin, who is a fairly high ranking Mormon told me that their church is not an offshoot of the Catholic Church. I added nothing as I didn’t want to interupt any more interesting facts. I think that idea has to do with the Mormon position that Catholics are apostate or have been from some point. I guess they believe that G-d left mankind without a Church for a long time until Joseph could come along with his truth.
It is my firm belief that anyone who gets involved with Mormons after purporting to be a Catholic, never was one of us anyway…sad to say.
Mormons will never let historical fact get in the way of their belief…one example is the position that wine was not alchoholic in the days of the Bible, it was simply grape juice. I have heard people from other non Catholic sects present this position also.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

And, when Jesus in person says, “I never knew you, depart from me you worker of evil”, he can just line up in Hell to smack JS.

He’ll even have time to get in line to smack JS or BY two or three times.

 

[hosemonkey]

“Mormons will never let historical fact get in the way of their belief…one example is the position that wine was not alchoholic in the days of the Bible, it was simply grape juice. I have heard people from other non Catholic sects present this position also.”

I have always thought this belief was hilarious. Can you imagine serving a bunch of first century Jews at a wedding feast with GRAPE JUICE? There would have been a riot and the host could never hold his head up again. Can you imagine the talk? “That Ezra is so cheap that he served grape juice at his daughter’s wedding.” “I know, we shouldn’t have spent so much on the gift.” “And he’s got two more daughters to marry off too, hope he gets a clue.”

 

[johannahw]

I am a Catholic convert who is struggling with trying to get away from the mormon church. I am having a difficult time sorting out all the confusion. How do you mean to say “I never was a catholic in the first place?” On Catholic Answers site there is the story of a Catholic Priest who actually became a mormon! Was he never a Catholic Priest? If a priest can be fooled then so can any one else be fooled. I forget that priest’s name but eventually he left the mormons and came back into the church.
Johannah

 

[Allweather]

Hi, Johanna…

I think there are various settings for people to come and go. I’ve heard of this priest, but don’t know anything about his story. The best personal experience I’ve had is with my fiance, who became Mormon during her mid-20s. She was raised nominally Catholic, and even went to a Catholic elementary school for a couple of years. But she tells me now that she was never really Catholic in the sense that she’d learned the nuts and bolts of the Catholic faith such that she could fend off the attractive arguments of the Mormons. I think that is what is meant by “not being Catholic in the first place.” She certainly was baptized and confirmed, but when she was confronted with the missionary arguments in favor of Mormonism, she didn’t know enough to be able to reply to them, “yeah, but…”

She has now returned fully to the Catholic faith. It took many months of showing her the deficiencies of Mormon theology. She had never probed very deeply into it. For instance, she hadn’t realized that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were practicing polygamy on such a scale. Or that Mormons believe that they can become gods and rule over their own worlds. Or that Heavenly Father lives on a planet orbiting a star named Kolob. The polygamy thing was really the main clincher for her.

Nowadays, we joke about Kolob, and she just shakes her head and wonders how she could ever have been involved with such lunacy. I think the answer is that she never probed into it. She was happy thinking that Mormonism is just a kinder, gentler Catholicism, all about family home evening and genealogy, food storage, etc. But the true Mormon religion is very troubling, and if you probe into it, and if you know anything at all about Christianity, then you may find yourself being troubled by it, as well.

 

[johannahw]

Thank you Allweather for the clarification. That much I can agree with you on. By the time I came into the Catholic at Easter Vigil I know I wasn’t very well grounded in the faith and so I have wandered from church to church looking to find out who has the truth indeed. I am disturbed that I am struggling to break free of mormonism. The fact that I’ve made friends with some wonderfully giving people who even pick us up and take us home from church is a blessing. We don’t have a car. You should have been here the day I was calling the Catholic churches looking to see if someone could please pick me and my husband up for Mass. But still I struggle with mormonism itself. Something, keeps telling me they are not right. They are not completely prolife and I really struggle with that. They believe in abortion if the health of the mother is at stake, or in the cases of rape or incest. If I have posted on this thread wrongly, I do apologize.
Johannah

 

[Allweather]

Some of the ex-Mormons will be of more help than I can be. The closest experience I have of breaking away from an error sect was when I came out of fundamentalism. Not exactly the same thing, but has some similarities, in the sense that certain indoctrinations are had over time that are very difficult to get rid of. Oh yeah, let me add as an edit: My advice for you would be that you go very slowly, and be patient with yourselves. The exiting of a false religion is extremely difficult, and will probably take many months, and probably even years. I think the best thing you can do is just stay in prayer, check in with the pastor of your church frequently, stay in grace thru confession, and let time heal wounds. I don’t believe there is any quick out.

Yes, it sounds as if you’re a determined couple! Good for you. You’ll go through this process and be stronger for it. God is always preparing us for something larger. Who knows what he’s preparing you and your husband for? He is probably already using you for his perfect plan without you even being aware of it. God is so GREAT.

Is your husband also coming out of the Mormon church? Are you two united together in this?

 

[johannahw]

Yes, we are both seeking to get out.
Thanks for your post.
Johannah

 

[gradstud35]

Makes no sense…since a good part of the Gospel of John is dedicated to Jesus’s words & teachings on the Holy Spirit…how can they pray to the Holy Spirit? While the Holy Spirit makes appearances in the Bible, Jesus is the One who directs us to pray to the Holy Spirit through His words.

I’m sorry if you actually witnessed God as a person in front of you, you’d probably remember every word he said.

 

[BartBurk]

Makes no sense…since a good part of the Gospel of John is dedicated to Jesus’s words & teachings on the Holy Spirit…how can they pray to the Holy Spirit? While the Holy Spirit makes appearances in the Bible, Jesus is the One who directs us to pray to the Holy Spirit through His words.

I’m sorry if you actually witnessed God as a person in front of you, you’d probably remember every word he said.

Mormons never pray to the Holy Spirit. They are only allowed to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. They can ask the Father to help the Spirit to guide them in the name of Jesus. That’s it. No, “Come, Holy Spirit, come” for them.

 

[Jerusha]

have you checked out exmormon.org? They are generally good people, although tending somewhat to agnosticism.

If you have problems with the BOM, here is an article which explains that it is not entirely JS’s fantasy, and that it may have some foundation in history, although grossly distorted by racist white minds.

solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0J.htm

(I wrote most of it. ) RCIA needs to do a better job with answering the questions of people with Mormon cultural heritage. I fear with so many leaving LDS that Catholic parishes might end up getting involved with Mormocatholic heresy.

 

[Prague]

Johanna you mentioned you came into the Church at Easter. Did you check with your sponsor about getting some help attending Mass? How did you manage to attend the RCIA classes? Did anyone pick you up for that?
Maybe you could see about putting an announcement in the Church Bulletin asking for anyone in your area attending Church if you could ride with them.
I teach RCIA and our teachers do help with transportation problems. If I lived in Reno, I would be happy to pick you up!
Prague

 

[Erich]

But if the Bible is just hearsay, why should we believe any of it including the teachings on the resurrection?

Maybe this article on Proving Inspiration may help:

An Accurate Text

Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

The Bible as Historical Truth

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

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