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Jerusha
Guest
Healing from the horrible stigma of a dark skin. :nope: Sigh. And some of their people of color actually believe this will happen. Self-hatred at its ultimate.
- Status
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soren1
Guest
By the way, I should mention in fairness that the Mormons do attempt a non-racist explanation of that verse. They will typically interpret “white” in reference not to skin but in reference to the glow of transfiguration, which fits the context because the Holy Ghost has just descended upon the Nephites in fire. The first problem with this is that the use of “white” here belongs to a larger context of uses through the BOM which often refer explicitly to skin color. Second, there is no opposition between interpreting it as a text about transfiguration and a text about skin color. Rather, taking both the transfiguration context into account and the use of “white” throughout the whole book, the teaching appears to be that the mode of transfiguration is the whitening of skin. Thus the Mormon response does not override but helps to flush out the racist meaning of the text.
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ParkerD
Guest
Almost as precious as this one:
Revelation 1:14-16
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Or this one:
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Or this one:
Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
We learn from these passages that white must be a symbol in the Bible of being “worthy”. Thus, “whiteness” or “radiance” or “no darkness in them” is not about skin color, at all–it’s about what is going on inside the heart of the person, and whether they are seeking to apply the Lord’s infinite blessing of His atoning sacrifice by their personal repentance and the sanctification of the Holy Ghost.
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Jerusha
Guest
Got it. The II Nephi 19 section has to be presented in the context of all the other racist passages in order for it to be fully understood.
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Jerusha
Guest
But we are talking about a text which is much different from the Bible in many ways. Maybe a word-study on “white” will be revealing.
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theidler
Guest
This is absurdity Parker - if the fullness of the Gospel is in the Book of Mormon, why is the D+C required or the PoGP? And for that matter, why the Book of Mormon if the Bible has the fullness of the Gospel?
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TexanKnight
Guest
I asked him that same question. I also still want to know why he is blind to the real reason white was changed to pure
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ParkerD
Guest
theidler,
It’s not absurdity for some people–perhaps so for others.
When Isaiah wrote of learning “line upon line, precept on precept”, then I am comfortable with the idea, fully amplified in the Bible, that knowledge is layered, and that some people such as Daniel and the apostle John received more knowledge because there was something more for them to learn and they were ready to learn it.
Also, the greater perspectives from having four “gospels”–Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John–rather than just one text telling of the teachings of Jesus, gives amplification and depth–not a bad thing, a good thing, unless someone just wants “only this much–no more–leave me alone I have enough”.
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theidler
Guest
You’re missing the point - you are speaking of individual authors within canonized Scripture, not the entire Bible itself. If the entire Bible contains the fullness of the Gospel, then the Book of Mormon’s existence is absolutely unnecessary. The only way it would be justified in its existence at all is if it taught something not contained within the Bible, otherwise it is just deadweight. So obviously it teaches something not contained within the Bible. Or many things.
Again, if the Book of Mormon and the Bible, according to Mormons contains the fullness of the gospel, why on earth do we also need the D+C or the PoGP? What purpose do they serve if they touch on concepts completely foreign to the Bible and even the Book of Mormon? Either the Bible is sufficient or it is not.
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TexanKnight
Guest
How can a book copied from other books, including the Bible, be another testament?
now please stop dodging the questions re: alleged fullness of the Gospel
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Come now ParkerD, the BoM clearly tells of the Lamanites being cursed with dark skin while the Nephites remained white. The Jesus described in the BoM, in this passage, is talking to Nephites.
While you can say, it is allegory, the fact remains that Mormonism teaches that the Jesus you believe in was white, and the fictional people he is speaking to in th BoM are also white. It is the BoM that ties skin color to worthiness. There is nothing in the Bible that does this, not literally or in allegory. No one outside of Mormonism would or could make the passages you posted as being tied to skin color, but somehow, you have managed to link them to the BoM, which does.
Revelations ties Jesus to the sacrificial lamb. Isaiah describes sin as being scarlet, Revelations describes scarlet garments being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. This isn’t about worthiness, it is about SALVATION, of which no one will ever be worthy. Certainly skin color has nothing to do with anyone’s salvation.
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Telstar
Guest
That doesn’t answer the question as to why there would ever be a necessity for the PoGP or D&C, if the BoM contained the ‘fullness of the Gospel’. When something is ‘full’, then there’s no room left to add anything to it.
Could you, please, quote the passage where you find that phrase used in Isaias? Because I can’t find anything close to that quote, anywhere, in the DR Bible. I know LDS use the phrase a lot and attribute it to Isaias, but I’m just not finding it at all.
Knowledge is far from the most important thing necessary for our salvation. Having complete faith and trust in God is much more important than knowledge, and both of those must be exemplified by a deep love of God and our neighbor. Faith, hope and charity. Everything else hinges on those three basic virtues. Without virtue, human knowledge is completely useless. God won’t be giving us a quiz on how much we knew about our religious beliefs or anything else. He’s much more interested in how much we love Jesus, and how closely we followed His instructions to love God and our neighbor while living our lives on earth. Without true love in our hearts, we won’t even get near the gate.
Those four Gospels were written by the eyewitnesses, the Apostles that were chosen by Jesus, Himself, while He lived His life and brought salvation to the people of this world, through His death on the cross. They were with Him for over three years, being taught by Him to preach the Word of God to the whole world. They were with Him after His Resurrection. They were all there when the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost, also.
Jesus is the only Word of God. Those four Gospels are the only ones necessary for anyone to learn about the life of Jesus, on earth. All other learning that’s necessary for salvation comes through the Church that He established and commissioned to spread that Gospel. Anyone that’s searching for God can easily find Him in all four of them, together in the Holy Bible. That one book is all that’s ever been needed to learn where to go to learn the true way to follow Jesus, which is only found in His Church.
As far as your last line goes, Jesus said that He was the Alpha and the Omega. He’s the beginning and the end of all Truth because He is Truth Incarnate. No other word is necessary for our salvation. No other ‘prophet’ could ever compare to Him, nor could they say anything that could ever add anything worthwhile to what He already said. He said all that was necessary to say. No mortal man should ever try to add or remove anything, at all, of the Word of God. If they ever did, they’d have to answer to God for doing it. I truly pity them for even trying to do it, because it probably won’t be a very happy ending for any of them.
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evanfaust
Guest
HI Rebecca,
Let’s investigate the subject through a different prism:
The Bible does indeed use the word curse to describe a punishment to be inflicted as the result of disobedience to God’s commandments. For example, in Deuteronomy we see:
*“The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.” *Deuteronomy 28:20
What is the curse?
John Tvedtnes suggests that curse applied to the Lamanites was that they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Nephi states:
*“Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.” * 2 Nephi 5:20
A group of Nephites who joined the Lamanites illustrates. Their skin color was not changed because of their rejection of the Gospel but the curse was applied to them.
Hugh Nibley describes the situation of the Amlicites:
Thus we are told (Alma 3:13-14,Alma 2:18) that while the fallen people “set the mark upon themselves,” it was none the less God who was marking them: “I will set a mark upon them,” etc. So natural and human was the process that it suggested nothing miraculous to the ordinary observer, and “the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves; . . . it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them” (Alma 3:18). Here God places his mark on people as a curse, yet it is an artificial mark which they actually place upon themselves. The mark was not a racial thing but was acquired by “whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites” (Alma 3:10).
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Curse
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evanfaust
Guest
Telstar,
What is the gospel?
In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ gave a specific definition of “the gospel”:
Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
(3 Nephi 27:13-19)
In this passage, Jesus defines “the gospel” as:
- Christ came into the world to do the Father’s will.
- The Father sent Christ to be crucified.
- Because of Christ’s atonement, all men will be judged by him according to their works (as opposed to not receiving a judgment at all and being cast out of God’s presence by default; 2 Nephi 9:8-9).
- Those who repent and are baptized shall be filled (with the Holy Ghost, see 3 Nephi 12:6), and
- if they continue in faith by enduring to the end they will be justified (declared “not guilty”) by Christ before the Father, but
- if they don’t endure they will be subject to the justice of God and cast out of his presence.
- The Father’s words will all be fulfilled.
- Because no unclean thing can enter the Father’s heavenly kingdom, only those who rely in faith on the atonement of Christ, repent, and are faithful to the end can be saved.
One last point that critics fail to acknowledge is that Latter-day Saints also believe that the Bible contains a fulness of the gospel. This gives further credence to the fact that the gospel—while used in this context—does not refer to every teaching of the LDS Church, but its message that the atonement comes through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Now, our scoffers say, “How can you say that the Book of Mormon has the fulness of the gospel when it doesn’t speak of baptism for the dead?” Some of you may have asked that question.
What is the gospel as it is defined? Let me give you how the Lord defines the gospel, in these words: “And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.” (DC 39:5-6.)
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evanfaust
Guest
Telstar,
Hope you don’t mind if I help Parker a little. I know he can answer all the questions, but he seems to be the only LDS defending his position.
<< Isaiah 28:10 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“For He says, ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’”
King James Bible
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
American King James Version
For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Hi. Dark skin color is not a mark signifying a cursed people. To believe it is, as you obviously do, is racist. I’m kind of floored, really. I think I prefer ParkerD’s approach, that at least is founded on a desire to explain away the institutional racism of Mormonism, rather than twisting the Bible to support it.
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Telstar
Guest
First of all, I don’t consider the BoM to be ‘scripture’, so whatever it says concerning the explanation of the word “gospel”, is completely irrelevant to the question that was posed to Parker by theidler. LDS constantly redefine commonly understood terms relating to God, including redefining God, Himself. It’s always been a problem communicating with LDS about any theological questions either on this forum, or anywhere else, because their definition and understanding of the terminology is completely different from a Catholic’s, or any other Christian’s, understanding of those same terms.
This is basically how Catholics define what is referred to as the Gospel(s) that appears in the Holy Bible. There are four books from four different authors POV, but together they are all considered to be one Gospel.
Gospel
The word Gospel usually designates a written record of Christ’s words and deeds. It is very likely derived from the Anglo-Saxon god (good) and spell (to tell), and is generally treated as the exact equivalent of the Greek euaggelion (eu well, aggello, I bear a message), and the Latin Evangelium, which has passed into French, German, Italian, and other modern languages. The Greek euaggelion originally signified the “reward of good tidings” given to the messenger, and subsequently “good tidings”.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Baptism isn’t the Gospel, it is a sacrament. Gospel means “Good news.” the Good News is, Jesus Christ.
St. Paul defines it in 1 Cor 15
Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
John 3:16…this is the Good News
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
This is the profession of the Christian faith, the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again.
In the second century, Gospel also came into use to describe the writings of the four Evangelists. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The genre of writing, and people, who proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ.
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Telstar
Guest
It seems we have another example of differences in later translations of various Protestant versions of the Bible.
Douay Rheims Version of **Isaias 28: [10] For command, command again; command, command again; expect, expect again; expect, expect again: a little there, a little there. **
The explanation given for the line is: [10] Command, command again: This is said in the person of the Jews, resisting the repeated commands of God, and still putting him off.
God tells Isaias that he must keep reiterating His commands to the Israelites, because they’re stubborn and refuse to follow them, due to their excessive pride.
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Jerusha
Guest
I am still working on a comparison of the usages of the word “WHITE” in the Bible and the BoM. Leviticus really skews things!!! 
BBL
BBL- Status