Mormon Doctrine that has changed

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Note to the general reader,

Two posts said I felt persecuted right after a post where I specifically explained that I don’t feel persecuted at all. If anyone has a question in their mind about that, please re-read my post, which was as follows:
because you said: “why would I feel persecuted when I am very familiar that the Bible prophesies of such goings on by people who in that way don’t apply the New Testament teachings about following Christ”

Your words indicate that though you might feel persecuted, what you are going thru is persecution. So, again, let’s you and me do a study about persecution.

Or perhaps I should feel persecuted that you are always ignoring my questions and issues. Actually, I do not feel that way because I know you have no answers. You are faced with the fact that your church has no real answers
 
Parker - fine, you’re not persecuted. Can you deal with the issues being brought up instead? And speaking of persecuted, if your Mormon positions are correct, then you should glory in the cross being given to you by all the objections being leveled at you, should you not?
theidler,

I don’t feel a need to “glory in the cross being given” by whatever comment comes up–it is not a “cross to bear”. Comments provide people’s opinions, and they can have their opinion and it makes not the slightest difference in my life or my thoughts.

As far as the Joseph Smith “having a gun” issue, he did not instigate the gun being brought into the jail, but he accepted one when it was given to him by a visitor.

Here are my thoughts about that subject:

I am very thankful that there is through that experience, no discrepancy between what Joseph Smith taught by revelation, and what he did by action. He taught by revelation that when a group or individual are guilty of a “fourth offense”–meaning they have been given three “turn-the-other cheek” chances for them to check their personal conscience and not continue as an aggressor, and after the third offense the people who are being assaulted and aggrieved have permission by revelation from God, to defend themselves, their families, and their interests if property is involved.

I am very thankful that when my son served in the Army National Guard in Iraq, though he didn’t have a situation where he ended up needing to personally defend against an aggressor, if he had there would have been no worry whether he would feel hesitant to fully defend himself and his unit. Any second of hesitation could mean the difference between life and death, so this would be an important aspect of one whose upbringing is to follow Christ with His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount very much a part of our lives. So the “fourth offense” principle is very important, and it was given by revelation to Joseph Smith for cases of war or aggression against a people who are followers of Christ.

I am very thankful that I would not feel that the example of those considered “martyrs” by not fighting back, particularly to defend my family, loved ones and friends, would be an example that I needed to follow if I were placed in a situation of a mob attack or even an individual attack against my family.

Just because they had only the example of Christ and the apostles and didn’t have the benefit of personal revelation to know when it was appropriate to defend themselves or defend their families and friends, doesn’t mean I would need to follow that same example, since we do have modern revelation about this and do have personal revelation to guide our ability to defend ourselves if an aggressor or a mob were to attack with lawless action.
 
theidler,

I don’t feel a need to “glory in the cross being given” by whatever comment comes up–it is not a “cross to bear”. Comments provide people’s opinions, and they can have their opinion and it makes not the slightest difference in my life or my thoughts.

As far as the Joseph Smith “having a gun” issue, he did not instigate the gun being brought into the jail, but he accepted one when it was given to him by a visitor.

I prosecuted a criminal who said about the same thing: I did not instigate the drugs being brought into my house, I just accepted the drugs"

Here are my thoughts about that subject:

I am very thankful that there is through that experience, no discrepancy between what Joseph Smith taught by revelation, and what he did by action.

Actually, he was constantly doing that

He taught by revelation that when a group or individual are guilty of a “fourth offense”–meaning they have been given three “turn-the-other cheek” chances for them to check their personal conscience and not continue as an aggressor, and after the third offense the people who are being assaulted and aggrieved have permission by revelation from God, to defend themselves, their families, and their interests if property is involved.

Then why did he claim he was a lamb? Did he not follow Christ who chastised Peter for drawing the sword? Seems a bit harsh for a man to claim he is following God while firing a pistol blindly down the stairs.

I am very thankful that when my son served in the Army National Guard in Iraq, though he didn’t have a situation where he ended up needing to personally defend against an aggressor, if he had there would have been no worry whether he would feel hesitant to fully defend himself and his unit.

HORRIBLE analogy. Your son did not claim to be a prophet OR a lamb. He did not tell his people he was going as to a lamb to the slaughter. He was trained to kill. BIG DIFFERENCE. And as an Army man, I am offended at your analogy

I am very thankful that I would not feel that the example of those considered “martyrs” by not fighting back, particularly to defend my family, loved ones and friends, would be an example that I needed to follow if I were placed in a situation of a mob attack or even an individual attack against my family.

Perhaps, but I have never seen you post that you are a lamb being led to the slaughter. By the way, the ONLY reason Joseph was in Carthage was because his people considered him a coward for trying to run away and he so he came back

Just because they had only the example of Christ and the apostles and didn’t have the benefit of personal revelation

Huh? They had ONLY the example of Christ and not Revelation? WOWOWOW…yes…they ONLY had Christ and were not lucky enough to have Joseph Smith
 
RebeccaJ,

Please note that I don’t feel “persecuted” by anyone who has stated their belief that a Latter-day Saint is not a Christian. Why would I feel persecuted when I am very familiar that the Bible prophesies of such goings on by people who in that way don’t apply the New Testament teachings about following Christ, yet who say that they do? So what if they want to fulfill prophecy in that way–it’s their choice which they can make.

The words “enthralled, chained” are just as much a “mark” word as the word “Christian”. They are descriptive adjectives that do indeed describe a “state of being” or a “state of mind” but they are given out as a “mark”–a point of differentiation between the person doing the differentiating by using the word to describe someone else, and the person they are describing. They are also words of scorn and belittling–but again, I feel not the slightest sense of being “persecuted” by seeing those words. (I think of Paul, who spoke with no hesitation before King Agrippa about his conversion and testimony of Christ and concluded with the words “were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.”) If I am “in bonds”, then it is because I am bound up and sealed up in the knowledge that Christ lives today and supports every one of His followers, whether they are scorned, belittled, or whatever the world does to them.
ParkerD, the only mark I’d give you is one that says, “God loves me”. Seriously, you don’t listen very well. I said, I know many Mormons who seek to follow Jesus Christ. That would include you. That makes you a Christian. It is Mormonism that has you in chains, causing you to believe all sorts of false ideas, like talking to your Lord and Savior is taboo. Unlike your belief about God marking people with dark skin, I don’t beliefve God marked you as enthralled or in chains. Joseph Smith did that for you. You cant leave your chains, for reasons only you know. God knows. I trust Him, and His care for you.

This is not judging you ParkerD. Unlike your BoM that teaches people cursed and marked are separated from God forever. I don’t believe this about you now, as you are. God calls you to Him, as He does all of us. You only need to believe that God loves you, unconditionally. Then you wouldn’t need to figure out ways that you are persecuted by anyone, including me.
 
Actually, I do not feel that way because I know you have no answers. You are faced with the fact that your church has no real answers
That’s why I Ieft the Restoration movement once and for all. For groups that claim to have the answers, they seem to have more questions that they couldn’t or wouldn’t answer.
 
HI Rebecca,

Let’s investigate the subject through a different prism:

The Bible does indeed use the word curse to describe a punishment to be inflicted as the result of disobedience to God’s commandments. For example, in Deuteronomy we see:

*“The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.” *Deuteronomy 28:20

What is the curse?

John Tvedtnes suggests that curse applied to the Lamanites was that they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Nephi states:

*“Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.” * 2 Nephi 5:20

A group of Nephites who joined the Lamanites illustrates. Their skin color was not changed because of their rejection of the Gospel but the curse was applied to them.

Hugh Nibley describes the situation of the Amlicites:

Thus we are told (Alma 3:13-14,Alma 2:18) that while the fallen people “set the mark upon themselves,” it was none the less God who was marking them: “I will set a mark upon them,” etc. So natural and human was the process that it suggested nothing miraculous to the ordinary observer, and “the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves; . . . it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them” (Alma 3:18). Here God places his mark on people as a curse, yet it is an artificial mark which they actually place upon themselves. The mark was not a racial thing but was acquired by “whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites” (Alma 3:10).

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Curse
How does any of what you posted here support the Mormon writings that state that dark skin was a sign of a curse?
 
I said, I know many Mormons who seek to follow Jesus Christ. That would include you. That makes you a Christian. It is Mormonism that has you in chains, causing you to believe all sorts of false ideas, like talking to your Lord and Savior is taboo. Unlike your belief about God marking people with dark skin, I don’t beliefve God marked you as enthralled or in chains. Joseph Smith did that for you. You cant leave your chains, for reasons only you know. God knows. I trust Him, and His care for you.
Bears repeating, in case he misses it.
 
I grew up LDS and spent about twenty years in the church and I can assure you that the Catholic Church has much more of a negative place in LDS theology than any other group of people. There is negative things about Jews, for example, but they are still considered part of the Abrahamic covenant in LDS theology and are therefore in a better spiritual plain. Protestants are viewed with a great sense of veneration because they are regarded as setting the conditions in which Joseph Smith was able to restore the original church so they are part of God’s great plan to restore true Christianity. The Catholic Church, however, is in the worst position possible because they drove an apostatized version of Christianity for thousands of years and did it while claiming to have God’s priesthood. If you ask any Mormon, they will tell you that if the Mormon church is not true, the Catholic church must be true which would explain why there is much more hostility towards the Roman Catholic Church.
I lived in Salt Lake City some years ago and I disagree with the notion of a negative place in LDS theology. There were differences, nonetheless people I knew, Catholics and Mormons, recognized their differences and were not hostile toward each other.

This notion of hostility did not exist among the people I know.
 
I lived in Salt Lake City some years ago and I disagree with the notion of a negative place in LDS theology. There were differences, nonetheless people I knew, Catholics and Mormons, recognized their differences and were not hostile toward each other.

This notion of hostility did not exist among the people I know.
Well it certainly DID show up in it’s theology for a while

(IE older editions of “Mormon Doctrine” by BRMcConkie, a member of the Quorum of 12…Those offense parts have since been edited out)…
 
I still can’t get over this:

“Just because they had only the example of Christ and the apostles and didn’t have the benefit of personal revelation”

Huh? They had ONLY the example of Christ and not Revelation? WOWOWOW…yes…they ONLY had Christ and were not lucky enough to have Joseph Smith
 
And Parker, let me tell you another issue with your post. Your son was taught the skills to survive in the Military. You simply cannot compare him to a man who was killed in jail who was in that very jail,because he committed a crime.

Not only did he commit a crime, a Mormon brought a weapon into the jail (another crime) and gave it to Joseph who took it (another crime).

It is insulting to compare that conduct with anyone in the military.
 
theidler,

I don’t feel a need to “glory in the cross being given” by whatever comment comes up–it is not a “cross to bear”. Comments provide people’s opinions, and they can have their opinion and it makes not the slightest difference in my life or my thoughts.

As far as the Joseph Smith “having a gun” issue, he did not instigate the gun being brought into the jail, but he accepted one when it was given to him by a visitor.

Here are my thoughts about that subject:

I am very thankful that there is through that experience, no discrepancy between what Joseph Smith taught by revelation, and what he did by action. He taught by revelation that when a group or individual are guilty of a “fourth offense”–meaning they have been given three “turn-the-other cheek” chances for them to check their personal conscience and not continue as an aggressor, and after the third offense the people who are being assaulted and aggrieved have permission by revelation from God, to defend themselves, their families, and their interests if property is involved.

I am very thankful that when my son served in the Army National Guard in Iraq, though he didn’t have a situation where he ended up needing to personally defend against an aggressor, if he had there would have been no worry whether he would feel hesitant to fully defend himself and his unit. Any second of hesitation could mean the difference between life and death, so this would be an important aspect of one whose upbringing is to follow Christ with His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount very much a part of our lives. So the “fourth offense” principle is very important, and it was given by revelation to Joseph Smith for cases of war or aggression against a people who are followers of Christ.

I am very thankful that I would not feel that the example of those considered “martyrs” by not fighting back, particularly to defend my family, loved ones and friends, would be an example that I needed to follow if I were placed in a situation of a mob attack or even an individual attack against my family.

Just because they had only the example of Christ and the apostles and didn’t have the benefit of personal revelation to know when it was appropriate to defend themselves or defend their families and friends, doesn’t mean I would need to follow that same example, since we do have modern revelation about this and do have personal revelation to guide our ability to defend ourselves if an aggressor or a mob were to attack with lawless action.
Your thinking is this way, Parker…because you have to defend the actions of Joseph Smith…and you choose to follow his teachings instead of Christ.

There have been at least two instances in these threads where you tried to defend the actions of Joseph Smith…and it is contrary to the 2000 year understanding of Christian martyrdom.

saints.sqpn.com/catechism-on-suffering-by-saint-john-vianney/

The following below distinguishes the suffering and willingness of a Christian martyr and that of Joseph Smith’s:

*There are some who suffer like the good thief, and others like the bad thief. They both suffered equally. But one knew how to make his sufferings meritorious, he accepted them in the spirit of reparation, and turning towards Jesus crucified, he received from His mouth these beautiful words: “This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. ” The other, on the contrary, cried out, uttered imprecations and blasphemies, and expired in the most frightful despair. *

There are two ways of suffering — to suffer with love, and to suffer without love…If we loved God, we should love crosses, we should wish for them, we should take pleasure in them. . . . We should be happy to be able to suffer for the love of Him who lovingly suffered for us…
 
theidler,

I don’t feel a need to “glory in the cross being given” by whatever comment comes up–it is not a “cross to bear”. Comments provide people’s opinions, and they can have their opinion and it makes not the slightest difference in my life or my thoughts.
Parker, there’s no shame in having to pick up our cross. Christians know very well that we must always be willing to suffer whatever God allows us to suffer, either physically, through sickness or injury; mentally, through anguish or sadness caused by circumstances that occur in our lives; or spiritually, through feelings of doubt, feeling abandoned by God, or through real persecution by others, who don’t believe as we do. Jesus, Himself, taught us, “[Luke 9:23] And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” He suffered much more than we could ever imagine, but He did it willingly, because He loves us. That’s why we should always be willing to do the same for His sake.

You are correct that you have no reason to think you’re being persecuted, because no one here has done that. Just because people disagree with LDS doctrines and beliefs, doesn’t mean they’re persecuting those who believe them. They’re merely expressing their opinions about why they think the doctrines are wrong. It’s not meant as a personal attack against any individual. It’s to show the reasons behind their opinions.
As far as the Joseph Smith “having a gun” issue, he did not instigate the gun being brought into the jail, but he accepted one when it was given to him by a visitor.
If he was a martyr for Christ, he never would have accepted the gun, much less ever used it. Real martyrs don’t pick up weapons to fight their way out of any situation. They follow the example of Jesus, Who was completely innocent of all charges against Him, but He didn’t even try to defend His innocence, or escape. He certainly could have escaped, but He chose to humbly follow the will of His Father, and suffer a brutally painful and humiliating death, in order for us to be forgiven for our sins. If we think we’re better than He is, or we don’t deserve to suffer anything, then we seriously need to rethink what it means to actually follow Jesus.
Here are my thoughts about that subject:

I am very thankful that there is through that experience, no discrepancy between what Joseph Smith taught by revelation, and what he did by action. He taught by revelation that when a group or individual are guilty of a “fourth offense”–meaning they have been given three “turn-the-other cheek” chances for them to check their personal conscience and not continue as an aggressor, and after the third offense the people who are being assaulted and aggrieved have permission by revelation from God, to defend themselves, their families, and their interests if property is involved.
Jesus never taught anything like that. He taught: “[Matthew 18:][21] Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.” Aren’t we are all brothers and sisters to God?
I am very thankful that when my son served in the Army National Guard in Iraq, though he didn’t have a situation where he ended up needing to personally defend against an aggressor, if he had there would have been no worry whether he would feel hesitant to fully defend himself and his unit. Any second of hesitation could mean the difference between life and death, so this would be an important aspect of one whose upbringing is to follow Christ with His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount very much a part of our lives. So the principle is very important, and it was given by revelation to Joseph Smith for cases of war or aggression against a people who are followers of Christ.
Your son was a trained soldier. It was his sworn duty to do whatever was necessary, because he was at war. If he would ever have any hesitation as to what he might need to do, then he never should have been a soldier in the first place.

If Joseph Smith taught that ‘fourth offense principle’ to his followers, then he was contradicting what Jesus taught from the beginning. For that reason, I could never believe JS received that ‘revelation’ from God, either. God never contradicts Himself.
I am very thankful that I would not feel that the example of those considered “martyrs” by not fighting back, particularly to defend my family, loved ones and friends, would be an example that I needed to follow if I were placed in a situation of a mob attack or even an individual attack against my family.
Defending one’s family or friends from an actual physical attack by any aggressor, is not the same kind of situation, at all.
Just because they had only the example of Christ and the apostles and didn’t have the benefit of personal revelation to know when it was appropriate to defend themselves or defend their families and friends, doesn’t mean I would need to follow that same example, since we do have modern revelation about this and do have personal revelation to guide our ability to defend ourselves if an aggressor or a mob were to attack with lawless action.
If you actually see Jesus or any of the other true martyrs in that light, then you have absolutely no idea what a true martyr is. You don’t even seem to have any real understanding of why Jesus came into this world, or what He did for all of us who follow Him. It certainly appears that Mormons don’t have a true appreciation for what Jesus suffered for them on the Cross at Calvary. Is it any real wonder why they’re not seen as true Christians, by those of us who are? 😦
 
And Parker, let me tell you another issue with your post. Your son was taught the skills to survive in the Military. You simply cannot compare him to a man who was killed in jail who was in that very jail,because he committed a crime.

Not only did he commit a crime, a Mormon brought a weapon into the jail (another crime) and gave it to Joseph who took it (another crime).

It is insulting to compare that conduct with anyone in the military.
👍

Read my sig line.
 
I’d have 671 more than you if back during the old west shoot em up days I hadn’t had to abandon this account to start another. Remember LongJourney and how she hurt my poor feelers and left forever. LOL I had them really believing it!! :slapfight: Rebecca and I had a great laugh over that.

They must have been hitting the complaint button like crazy. And the mods were probably laughing, too.
 
I’d have 671 more than you if back during the old west shoot em up days I hadn’t had to abandon this account to start another. Remember LongJourney and how she hurt my poor feelers and left forever. LOL I had them really believing it!! :slapfight: Rebecca and I had a great laugh over that.

They must have been hitting the complaint button like crazy. And the mods were probably laughing, too.
Ahhh…Those were the days…😛

How many mods have we been through!?!😃
 
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