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Jerusha
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Well, sorry. I just had to get out of their line of fire. 
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TexanKnight
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Yes we do. I will not, as a military man, be compared to a false prophet who is in jail for violating the Constitution and illegally obtains a gun and shoots to kill people while in jail.
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Jerusha
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And I refuse to be abused because one of my ancestors was probably there.
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theidler
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And it seems to have gotten vewy vewy qwiet round these parts since…no Parker to be found. Did you guys complain to the mods about that comment concerning the military?
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twopekinguys
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Nope
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TexanKnight
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Nope.
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ParkerD
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Telstar,Parker, there’s no shame in having to pick up our cross. Christians know very well that we must always be willing to suffer whatever God allows us to suffer, either physically, through sickness or injury; mentally, through anguish or sadness caused by circumstances that occur in our lives; or spiritually, through feelings of doubt, feeling abandoned by God, or through real persecution by others, who don’t believe as we do. Jesus, Himself, taught us, “[Luke 9:23] And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” He suffered much more than we could ever imagine, but He did it willingly, because He loves us. That’s why we should always be willing to do the same for His sake.
You are correct that you have no reason to think you’re being persecuted, because no one here has done that. Just because people disagree with LDS doctrines and beliefs, doesn’t mean they’re persecuting those who believe them. They’re merely expressing their opinions about why they think the doctrines are wrong. It’s not meant as a personal attack against any individual. It’s to show the reasons behind their opinions.
If he was a martyr for Christ, he never would have accepted the gun, much less ever used it. Real martyrs don’t pick up weapons to fight their way out of any situation. They follow the example of Jesus, Who was completely innocent of all charges against Him, but He didn’t even try to defend His innocence, or escape. He certainly could have escaped, but He chose to humbly follow the will of His Father, and suffer a brutally painful and humiliating death, in order for us to be forgiven for our sins. If we think we’re better than He is, or we don’t deserve to suffer anything, then we seriously need to rethink what it means to actually follow Jesus.
Jesus never taught anything like that. He taught: “[Matthew 18:][21] Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.” Aren’t we are all brothers and sisters to God?
Your son was a trained soldier. It was his sworn duty to do whatever was necessary, because he was at war. If he would ever have any hesitation as to what he might need to do, then he never should have been a soldier in the first place.
If Joseph Smith taught that ‘fourth offense principle’ to his followers, then he was contradicting what Jesus taught from the beginning. For that reason, I could never believe JS received that ‘revelation’ from God, either. God never contradicts Himself.
Defending one’s family or friends from an actual physical attack by any aggressor, is not the same kind of situation, at all.
If you actually see Jesus or any of the other true martyrs in that light, then you have absolutely no idea what a true martyr is. You don’t even seem to have any real understanding of why Jesus came into this world, or what He did for all of us who follow Him. It certainly appears that Mormons don’t have a true appreciation for what Jesus suffered for them on the Cross at Calvary. Is it any real wonder why they’re not seen as true Christians, by those of us who are?
I respect that Catholics serve in the military, and I think they do it in good conscience, which means that they realize that “turning the other cheek” and “forgiving seventy times seven” does not apply when an aggressor is killing people and on the offensive in their actions.
The fact that Jesus used the “seventy times seven” expression shows that he wasn’t talking about someone forgiving a person who is about to kill them, especially as a part of a mob. He was talking about other offenses than murder–since obviously a person who is murdered does not have the opportunity to forgive the killer or killers 469 more times.
Your seventh paragraph above shows that you don’t understand that Joseph Smith’s brother was in the jail with him, and Joseph Smith was attempting to defend his brother from being killed as well as his very good personal friends from being killed. So he was
“Defending one’s family or friends from an actual physical attack by any aggressor”–except that the aggressor was multiplied by a mob of over 200 men with painted faces to hide their identity, and the jail keeper let them in and let them go upstairs while it was obvious what they intended to do.
You also probably wouldn’t be aware that it was known in Nauvoo by several people (including the one who brought the gun into the jail) that the mob group was being assembled and was planning to murder Joseph Smith. If I were to think to myself that he should have just played the part of a “martyr” as you have described, and not sought to defend his brother and his friends when he knew full well what was planned against them, and knew that the jail keeper was in conspiracy with them, and that he had experienced previous mob actions which had injured him and resulted in the death of a child through exposure to harsh winter conditions–then I would not be being honest with my own conscience.
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ParkerD
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ParkerD
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Jerusha,
- Jesus was very specific in teaching the apostles how to pray. He taught them to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. I don’t feel the need to add an asterisk that He really wasn’t saying that or didn’t mean it.
- The comment still used a word that shows the kind of attitude that is a “word mark” against a group of people and their beliefs. It shows that bringing up “skin color mark” as something God would not do, yet using a “word mark” toward a group of people as something God is believed to approve of, shows an inconsistency that was warned against in the Sermon on the Mount.
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RebeccaJ
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The only way you can know ParkerD, is if someone tells you. Doesn’t seem to matter. You are unable to hear.
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theidler
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Funny, because when I read the epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch who was knowingly going to his death for the sake of Christ, he explicitly asks not to get any help from anyone. I don’t remember St. Polycarp allowing anyone to give him a sword to defend himself with. I don’t seem to remember St. Justin Martyr wildly hurling darts at his accusers who dragged him off and tortured and killed him. Interesting…in fact, I see none of the early martyrs doing such things, but rather submitting themselves to the sword rather than deny their faith.
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RebeccaJ
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Mormons have the mentality that it was a war. Smith had built up a Mormon Militia, with himself as the general of course. They use the term martyr for Smith because they believe he died for what he believed. He isn’t a Christian martyr, he is a Mormon martyr. Mormon martyrs go down fighting. They weren’t fighting for Jesus, they were fighting for Joseph.
http://www.lds.org/museum/exhibit/images/d87_mr.jpg
Also, they are fed one side of the story from a very young age. Smith’s actions that got him into trouble, repeatedly, are left out. He had a habit of making advances towards young girls and married women. His most severe tar and feathering episode was a result of targeting a young girl who had older brothers. They had plotted castration, but the Dr. they had convinced at first, backed out.
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TexanKnight
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ParkerD
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To the general reader,
Hyrum Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith, was killed by a bullet from the mob who stormed the Carthage Jail when the men in the room with Joseph Smith were first attacked through a closed door. Hyrum was killed before Joseph Smith fired a shot.
Joseph Smith jumped from the window to save the lives of John Taylor and Willard Richards, who were in the room also and weren’t killed because when Joseph Smith jumped from the window, already shot, the mob left the upstairs and ran outside because he was their target.
Hyrum Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith, was killed by a bullet from the mob who stormed the Carthage Jail when the men in the room with Joseph Smith were first attacked through a closed door. Hyrum was killed before Joseph Smith fired a shot.
Joseph Smith jumped from the window to save the lives of John Taylor and Willard Richards, who were in the room also and weren’t killed because when Joseph Smith jumped from the window, already shot, the mob left the upstairs and ran outside because he was their target.
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TexanKnight
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RebeccaJ
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ParkerD, Smith had fired into the corridor leading into their cells before Hyrum was shot. Hyrum was shot several times. John Taylor was also shot, several times, at one time thinking to jump out the window to safety, but he was shot from below, outside the window. So he hid under a bed, where he was shot again in the hip. He survived.
The other three, including Joseph, had retreated to a corner of the cell where the firing coming from the door was not hitting them. Joseph then decided to try for the window. The accounts by the other two are in fact that he knew that if he left the cell, the men in the corridor would stop firing into it. At that point Joseph had not yet been shot. When he was standing at the window, he was hit twice from behind, by men in the corridor, and once from below, by a man who was standing outside. He fell out of the window, dead before he fell, or very shortly after.
As to their lives and the intent of the men who murdered them, it didn’t matter whether or not the inmates were armed. There was no possible way that Joseph and Hyrum were going to survive, as the intent of their murderers was to end their lives.
Certainly, I don’t blame them for trying to defend themselves, most people would. The point about calling them Christian martyrs though, is that Christian martyrs accept their suffering and death in the same manner that Jesus accepted His. Many were called to martyrdom in the first three centuries of the Church, going to their deaths without mustering arms. You will never read, in any Christian history, of a Christian army or militia that existed in pagan Rome. Look to St. Paul, who knew his life was in danger, was jailed several times, and at the last, knew his death was imminent. He didn’t call for or accept arms. His fight was not with weapons against others, but submitting himself to the Will of God. He was confident in Jesus Christ, and the Resurrection.
At any rate, I don’t think anyone would dispute that the Smith brothers were murdered, and murder is always unjust.
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Jerusha
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TexanKnight
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I have never said they were not murdered. They were. But Joseph escaped jail in Missouri. He ran from warrants in Ohio. He committed a crime against the Constitution in Nauvoo, and tried to run from the law again, but his followers called him a coward. He stated “if my life means nothing to them, it means nothing to me” or words similar.
Joseph would have never even been in Carthage had he not broken the law.
To call him a martyr is simply not being honest. He was murdered, not martyred.
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Telstar
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Catholics don’t hesitate to defend their country, or other innocent people. A soldier’s duty is to fight by whatever means necessary to defend the innocent, so turning the other cheek never applies in that situation. But, it’s a moot point in this discussion because Joseph Smith wasn’t in the military, nor was he fighting in any kind of war.
Jesus asked His Father to forgive the men that unjustly crucified (murdered) Him at the urging of an angry mob, so I think that negates your whole point, and proves that He really meant what He said.
I have read the entire account many times, from several different sources. If I remember correctly, many in the mob with painted faces are believed to have been Mormons, or former Mormons, that were angry over his constant philandering with their wives and daughters.
I doubt that his intention was to defend anyone but himself. He was just trying to escape from the authorities, the same way he had done so many times, before.
Now, you seem to be contradicting your earlier statement (both in red) by saying that Hyrum was already dead before Joseph even fired a shot. So, are you saying he was defending his brother’s dead body?
He was trying to jump to escape, and was leaving his friends behind to fend for themselves against the angry mob. I don’t see that as him defending anyone but himself. It looks more like he was just trying to save his own skin, to me. IMHO, there is nothing noble or righteous in what he did.
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Telstar
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Thank you for posting this account of what happened, Rebecca. I agree that the mob was out to kill them, and that was certainly wrong on their part. They decided to take the law into their own hands because they were afraid that he’d find a way to escape, again. But, for LDS to make it seem as if the brothers were ‘martyred’ is a gross misstatement of facts given the circumstances, as well as by taking into consideration Joseph’s propensity for breaking the law of the land, whenever it served his own purposes. I don’t believe they were killed solely for their religious beliefs, as much as for their complete disregard for the law, that they didn’t seem to think applied to them. Joseph would tell them that God wanted something done, so they would follow his orders even if it was against the law, because they believed he was a real prophet. Joseph justified everything he did by claiming that God directed them to do it.
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