Mormon Doctrine

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I have some questions about Mormon doctrine for the OP:
(all my questions are about issues in the LDS book published for teachers called Gospel Principles)

In the section entitled Our Heavenly family it seems to say that we will all become gods if we are good people on earth. It does not say that we will partake fully in the life of God but rather that we will become just like in every way God, i.e. we too will have all power in Heaven and on earth, we will have heavenly bodies like his, we will have spirit children. Isn’t this polytheistic?

Secondly there is a whole section on Eternal Marriage. Didn’t Jesus say there is no marriage at the resurrection?

I will just start with these two questions for now.
 
Mormons make no bones about it, they believe in a “plurality” of gods.
 
smad0142 said:
I have some questions about Mormon doctrine for the OP:
(all my questions are about issues in the LDS book published for teachers called Gospel Principles)

In the section entitled Our Heavenly family it seems to say that we will all become gods if we are good people on earth. It does not say that we will partake fully in the life of God but rather that we will become just like in every way God, i.e. we too will have all power in Heaven and on earth, we will have heavenly bodies like his, we will have spirit children. Isn’t this polytheistic?

Secondly there is a whole section on Eternal Marriage. Didn’t Jesus say there is no marriage at the resurrection?

I will just start with these two questions for now.
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I also puzzle over word choices made by LDS in establishing their faith
  1. If i were speaking to a Catholic, I would use the term angel. That if you walk the path of christ, you will like an angle exhaulted in God’s presence (front row seats). Remember we are talking about the unknowable and giving people reason to live a good and just life.
LDS believe in the Trinity - three persons in one purpose
RCC believe in the Trinity - three persons in one nature

Both believe in three distinct persons but we differ on how they are attached/connected. Since we are talking about the unknowable, I think the nuance difference in interpratations is not significant - it doesn’t change the power or purpose of God, or his teachings, or the road to salvation.
  1. Eternal marriage
    I don’t have the background to talk in depth. I do feel it brings the seriousness of marriage up a notch 🙂
    Again, deep descriptions of the afterlife by any faith are helpful in getting humans to focus their minds on the ‘right path’ but we can’t comprehend heaven. Even the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory was a medieval creation to give people hope for their salvation, an opportuntiy to continue to grow in holiness (also helped sell indulgences).
Maybe some LDS practices and word usage are aimed more at the heart of a simple man, rather than a philosophy major.
 
Todd520 said:
I also puzzle over word choices made by LDS in establishing their faith
  1. If i were speaking to a Catholic, I would use the term angel. That if you walk the path of christ, you will like an angle exhaulted in God’s presence (front row seats). Remember we are talking about the unknowable and giving people reason to live a good and just life.
LDS believe in the Trinity - three persons in one purpose
RCC believe in the Trinity - three persons in one nature.

Both believe in three distinct persons but we differ on how they are attached/connected. Since we are talking about the unknowable, I think the nuance difference in interpratations is not significant, it doesn’t change the power or purpose of Got, or his teachings, or the road to salvation.
  1. Eternal marriage
    I don’t have the background to talk in depth. I do feel it brings the seriousness of marriage up a notch 🙂
    Again, deep descriptions of the afterlife by any faith are helpful in getting humans to focus their minds on the ‘right path’ but we can’t comprehend heaven. Even the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory was a medieval creation to give people hope for their salvation, an opportuntiy to continue to grow in holiness (also helped sell indulgences).
Click to expand...
  1. But an angel does not have all power in Heaven or earth, does not have spirit children. This book does not give angel those powers, only God. Therefore it follows if men get these powers they are gods. That is polytheism no?
  2. I agree Eternal Marriage sounds like a beautiful thing except it goes against what Jesus said. Also purgatory is found in the Book of Maccabees (sp?) and also can be inferred in the writings of St. Paul. The Church does not create doctrines.
 
The Catholic Doctrine for Purgatory was not set down until the Second Council of Lyon in 1274. then expanded upon through the Council of Trent in 1545.

However, I’m not suggesting it was a Cahtolic invention since it stems from beliefs found in Judism pre-Christ, and appears to be a world wide tradition (Chinese Buddhists). It just wasn’t Official Doctrine until the medieval ages
 
SMAD, I must say I think you are being a Troll, but I’ll give it one more post.

Practically, Catholic use of “Soul” equals LDS use of “Spirit”
Catholics think the Soul is created at fertilization (from Catechism, not sacred scripture)
LDS think the -]Soul /-]Spirit pre-existed our mortal life

Yes, the LDS talk about becoming more ‘god like’ but I don’t have a list of these super powers 🙂 I think the Catholic equivalent is to try emulate or become a Saint, like Mother Theresa.

But to take it any further, I need your answers to four questions, for fair contrast and comparison


  1. *]Explain to me what is the essence of the Soul that makes it to heaven?
    *]How is the Soul’s essence different than God’s essence (the Father)?
    *]How are Catholic Saints any different than the average Joe in heaven?
    *]Why pray for for a Saint’s help unless they can help you?

    I do recall being taught to pray for specific Saints to help me in my life, as a young Catholic. I believe the power of Saints is not commonly understood by all Catholics - some are revered just a few step below the Trinity.

    If the Catholics have no real definition or understanding of the Soul’s essense after death, then this discussion is one sided and not constructive.
 
Todd520 said:
SMAD, I must say I think you are being a Troll, but I’ll give it one more post.

Practically, Catholic use of “Soul” equals LDS use of “Spirit”
Catholics think the Soul is created at fertilization (from Catechism, not sacred scripture)
LDS think the -]Soul /-]Spirit pre-existed our mortal life

Yes, the LDS talk about becoming more ‘god like’ but I don’t have a list of these super powers 🙂 I think the Catholic equivalent is to try emulate or become a Saint, like Mother Theresa.

But to take it any further, I need your answers to four questions, for fair contrast and comparison


  1. *]Explain to me what is the essence of the Soul that makes it to heaven?
    I hope to answer this by answering it in the second question, tell me if I don’t.
    *]How is the Soul’s essence different than God’s essence (the Father)?
    We know they are different from the get go because God is eternal and man is created. At the very least God is of an eternal nature while man is of a created nature. If that distinction is not enough we could compare and contrast further; I hope this addresses the question.
    *]How are Catholic Saints any different than the average Joe in heaven?
    They aren’t any different its just we are only sure of a certain group that are in there. The group is not exhaustive and any Saint in Heaven can be asked for to pray with a person here on earth, it’s just we only know the names of some, not all of the people in Heaven.
    *]Why pray for for a Saint’s help unless they can help you?
    Because we know that praying is ok, that having others pray with us is ok, and that death has been conquered through Jesus’ Resurrection so that means the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant can rely on eachother. If those terms are unfamiliar to you just say so and I will explain them.

    I do recall being taught to pray for specific Saints to help me in my life, as a young Catholic. I believe the power of Saints is not commonly understood by all Catholics - some are revered just a few step below the Trinity.

    If the Catholics have no real definition or understanding of the Soul’s essense after death, then this discussion is one sided and not constructive.
Click to expand...

  1. Ok hopefully you realize I’m not a troll I am just asking questions. Also you did not answer my second point which I think is a legit question. Also I will resond to your questions directly under them in a different color font because I just think it makes it easy.
 
Also the list of super powers you refer to is the same list I posted earlier. It comes from the book Gospel Principles.
 
One final thing, and I am sorry I didn’t think ahead enough to put this all in one post. Just because something was officially declared in a certain year does not men that it was not beleived before, rather that it needed clarification in a time of controversy. If you are truly interested read Card. Dulles book on the Magesterium.
 
smad0142 said:
  1. But an angel does not have all power in Heaven or earth, does not have spirit children. This book does not give angel those powers, only God. Therefore it follows if men get these powers they are gods. That is polytheism no?
  2. I agree Eternal Marriage sounds like a beautiful thing except it goes against what Jesus said. Also purgatory is found in the Book of Maccabees (sp?) and also can be inferred in the writings of St. Paul. The Church does not create doctrines.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the discourse SMAD,
So is polytheism based on the head or the tail?

The RCC definition - “three persons in one nature” is sort of a of Chimaera, a three headed being. If it’s heads, then RCC is polytheism.

The LDS definition - “three persons in one purpose” sounds polytheism, unless you argue they act as one and should be considered so.

I always felt polytheism was for describing the mythical gods, who had independent thought, action and purpose from one another. This is not so for either LDS or RCC Trinity

I still have to pass on #2, haven’t looked into it yet.
 
smad0142 said:
I have some questions about Mormon doctrine for the OP:
(all my questions are about issues in the LDS book published for teachers called Gospel Principles)

In the section entitled Our Heavenly family it seems to say that we will all become gods if we are good people on earth. It does not say that we will partake fully in the life of God but rather that we will become just like in every way God, i.e. we too will have all power in Heaven and on earth, we will have heavenly bodies like his, we will have spirit children. Isn’t this polytheistic?
Click to expand...
If you assume that that contemplates something like a classical pantheon, then I suppose it appears polytheistic.

But the fact is that we are in nowise polytheists. We wholeheartedly agree with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.
smad0142 said:
Secondly there is a whole section on Eternal Marriage. Didn’t Jesus say there is no marriage at the resurrection?

I will just start with these two questions for now.
Click to expand...
No. Jesus actually said that there is no getting married in the Resurrection. He didn’t say there is no staying married.

Regards,
Pahoran
 
Todd520 said:
Thanks for the discourse SMAD,
So is polytheism based on the head or the tail?

The RCC definition - “three persons in one nature” is sort of a of Chimaera, a three headed being. If it’s heads, then RCC is polytheism.

The LDS definition - “three persons in one purpose” sounds polytheism, unless you argue they act as one and should be considered so.

I always felt polytheism was for describing the mythical gods, who had independent thought, action and purpose from one another. This is not so for either LDS or RCC Trinity

I still have to pass on #2, haven’t looked into it yet.
Click to expand...
Polytheism is defined as believing in more than one god. LDS believe in at least four specific gods/goddess (at least one heavenly mother, possibly more if you go down the “father practices plural marriage” path). LDS theology allows for an infinite number of gods. There is no misunderstanding going on, where LDS are being misunderstood and in actuality there is a belief in ONE God. A plurality of gods is clearly taught in LDS doctrines.

In the sense of a pantheon of gods, that you are looking for, it exists. The LDS father procreates spirit children with a mother/goddess(es).

Trinitarian doctrine defines God as ONE. That non-Christians misunderstand or attempt to construe ONE God as polytheistic, does not reflect actual Christian understanding or belief.
 
Bruce R. McKonkie, in addition to calling the Catholic Church the “great and abominable Church” also taught in his book “Mormon Doctrine” that the LDS believe in a “plurality of gods”.

seems pretty clear
 
“. . . The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at the time.” ( * Teachings, * pp. 348–49.) The Abraham account of the Creation reflects this idea of the plurality of Gods (see Abraham 4 ).
Click to expand...
LDS Student Manual

If this isn’t describing a pantheon of gods, I don’t know what would.
 
Pahoran said:
If you assume that that contemplates something like a classical pantheon, then I suppose it appears polytheistic.

But the fact is that we are in nowise polytheists. We wholeheartedly agree with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

No. Jesus actually said that there is no getting married in the Resurrection. He didn’t say there is no staying married.

Regards,
Pahoran
Click to expand...
If people are still married in Heaven why didn’t Jesus just answer the Sadduccees question then.
 
RebeccaJ said:
LDS Student Manual

If this isn’t describing a pantheon of gods, I don’t know what would.
Click to expand...
Then you should get out more.

Alternatively, you might do some research on the “Divine Council,” which is in fact a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament; but those who have identified it as such have not in my experience described it as a “pantheon.”

Regards,
Pahoran
 
smad0142

I do not think that what you are talking about, in your first question, is in Chapter 2 “Our Heavenly Family.” Try Chapter 47 “Exaltation.”

People mean different things by “polytheism.” When you write “polytheism” do you mean worship of more than one God? If so, then the answer is that we are not polytheists. We worship only one God, our Heavenly Father, Elohim.

As to your second question, here is a quote from FAIRWiki:

"Matt. 22:23-30 (or its counterparts, Mark 12:18-25 and Luke 20:27-36) is often used by critics to argue against the LDS doctrine of eternal marriage. The Sadducees, who didn’t believe in the resurrection, asked the Savior about a case where one woman successively married seven brothers, each of which died leaving her to the next. They then tried to trip up Jesus by asking him whose wife she will be in the resurrection. Jesus’ answer is almost identical in all three scriptural versions.

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:29-30)

This scripture is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in the Bible. If one is to understand it properly, one must take into account the following:

1.The question that the Saducees asked was not a hypothetical one but was based on a real case of a woman who married seven brothers in succession, and that Jesus is commenting on this particular case.
2.The original Greek of this passage makes it clear that Jesus intended no statement concerning the marital status of the righteous in heaven.
3.The eternal unmarried state is the state of the angels in heaven, but it is not that of the heirs of salvation. "

The people at FAIR are experts, and I am an amateur, but I really like Todd’s response best. If you get married in the Temple here on earth, then you are already married when you get to heaven, so you do not have to marry or be given in marriage in heaven.

How can you bear the sadness of “til death do you part”? It need not be so.

I am glad to see you asking questions from Gospel Principles a/k/a “Mormonism 101”. I wish more people would take such a reasonable approach.

Murdock
 
Pahoran said:
Then you should get out more.

Alternatively, you might do some research on the “Divine Council,” which is in fact a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament; but those who have identified it as such have not in my experience described it as a “pantheon.”

Regards,
Pahoran
Click to expand...
Yes, I know, LDS construe the pagan/idolatry practices and error of belief found in the OT as something they themselves should believe. I recommend paying attention to the constant and consistent way in which GOD pulls His chosen people away from this error. He doesn’t lead them deeper into it.

But considering this idea that truth doesn’t matter, I don’t know why you bother to believe anything at all.
 
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