Mormon friends Do the elite who run the LDS church brother you ?

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NeuroTypical said:
I found a quote on the subject from Dan Peterson, BYU professor and LDS apologist:
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… (The point remains, though, that these men took substantial pay cuts to serve.) But others come out of academia, where the salaries are certainly not high enough to make one “independently wealthy.” And there are former pharmacists, small businessmen, farmers and fruit growers, dentists, career military men, and others among them.

I’ve spent time in certain General Authority homes. The condo that a member of one of the area presidencies in Frankfurt was living in was certainly not lavish. Pretty much a standard (non-student) apartment. And President Packer’s home, which he built himself, is just typically middle class.
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So in the case of the one person named, President Packer, what was his job before being called to the church, and – since the point of Dan Peterson’s statement is that “these men took substantial pay cuts to serve” - how much of a “substantial pay cut” did President Packer have to take? What career did he have to cut short in order to answer the call to be ordained an apostle?

Please understand. I have seen the homes of the Mormon President and of the apostles. Believe me when I say, I don’t care. Personally, I don’t care whether they live in those homes or have one room in a house shared with half a dozen other priests as Catholic priests in my previous town of residence. My point is, if someone is going to say So-and-so is so humble and lives so humbly and only gets a humble living allowance, and all the other humility clichés that come up from time to time, then I would like to see some “disclosure” and “transparency” go along with those humble claims.

In that light, for the home which President Packer built himself – on how many acres does it stand? How long did it take him to build it, or by “built himself” did Peterson mean he managed and contracted the building of it himself, rather than hire a contractor? (I have known men - and two women - who did, literally, build their own houses, less common in America than some other parts of the world.) It doesn’t matter to me personally either way, but it may help others understand exactly what it is that Peterson is saying, and maybe why he is saying it the way he is. Does Packer still live at the 1.7 million dollar “typically middle class” property at 1850 East Forest Bend Drive, Salt Lake City, UT 84121. And was that house paid for from the income Packer received before serving the Church full time, or after entering full-time Church service?

LIke I said, I don’t care much about where someone lives. If rich enough, it’s fine with me if they live in an umpteen billion dollar mansion with a fleet of private cars, an airplane, yacht, servants, horses, a private hunting preserve, whatever. And if they are not rich, and have to live in squalor, that’s okay, too. Everybody has to live somewhere. We should be grateful for what we have, not resentful at what others have. What I especially dislike is dissimulation in either case. Either the rich lamenting his hardships and humble life style, or someone saying he has received blessings from God when in fact he has received tithing from his Church sufficient for some wants but beyond his “needs” (this requires some qualification on my part, which I will attempt if it becomes an issue), or the poor declaring his poverty to be proof that he is purer and holier than the rich.

Mormon leaders, certainly all the apostles who wish to take advantage of it, also receive royalties for their books. D. Michael Quinn reported,
Presiding Bishop (and later Apostle) LeGrand Richards set a remarkable example by accepting no royalties for his ‘Marvelous Work and a Wonder’ which had sold 2 million copies by the time of his death in 1983. However, a president of the LDS church’s publishing company has observed that very few General Authorities have declined royalties for their books. Mormons purchase books written by General Authorities primarily because of the church office the author holds, rather than for the book’s content. Although many General Authorities do not write books, such royalty income is a direct consequence of being an LDS leader.
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Mormon leaders, imo, live in at least “middle class” comfort, because of their position in the Church, and because of their ex-officio positions in multiple for-profit companies. As long as that isn’t hidden or denied, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. I believe Church leaders should have perks, so that they can present themselves - as spokesmen for their Church - in a dignified manner. On the other hand, I have seen Catholic clergy standing side by side with non-Catholic religious, and the Catholic clergy, with less costly perks, have been the equal or superior, in terms of dignitas (and intellect and rationality, for that matter), to their more costly cousins.

I grew up where service without pay was a virtue. As a result of that, and because I have personally witnessed Mormon leaders and Catholic clergy and how they live and act - and not because I’ve been brainwashed by the materialistic and thanocentric socialism of today’s sick culture - I more greatly admire and favor those priests, pastors, clergy, etc., who are able to serve in their religious offices with less direct financial assistance from the Church they serve. When I compare Catholic clergy with Mormon priesthood leaders, it is the Catholic clergy I admire more.
 
Tarquin said:
Could you be more specific - what were the hardships in his life? Or by “hardship” were you referring to your previous statement that he worked for a business his mother started? I worked, too, as a child, but did not then, and do not now, think of it as a “hardship”. It was just work. I got some money out of it, so it was pretty cool, even when I was doing things I didn’t like.

It is “painfully obvious” that words used in forums carry different denotations - and even different connotations - for the people using and reading them.
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Here are links to two talk he gave referring to his childhood.

lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/two-principles-for-any-economy?lang=eng
lds.org/general-conference/2006/04/see-the-end-from-the-beginning?lang=eng
 
I think there is one American bishop who was disciplined for living lavishly, and another was pulled out of his extravagant house by the pope.

I am appreciative of acknowledgement that nobody owns the Church.

But there are a few other perspectives here as well. We seek a fitting dwelling for the House of the Lord. Anyone who reads the Book of Wisdom and the adornments by Solomon for his wife can may be have some understanding how the Church wishes adorn Our Lord.

To put the Church headquarters in a shack…there is a book out there called, ‘The Shack’…can make one muse…what would it be like if the Catholic Church headquarters had some non descript buildings to rent out.

What would we do with all the artifacts and scientific displays at the Vatican Library, or the artwork of the Sistene Chapel painted by Michaelangelo?..He was a Secular Franciscan, a follower of St. Francis of Assisi who embraced Lady Poverty.

The essence of faith in Christ brings expression in the Catholic soul to that of beauty and Truth. We want to express beauty outwardly that reflects on the beauty of the living Christ within…not to say that we are beautiful. Outward beauty of a person is certainly in the eyes of the beholder.

But it is amazing that there is universally accepted and perceived beauty of the physical presence of the universal Church that reflects concepts of beauty of many generations of believers going back 2,000 years. To combine 2000 years of expression of beauty and truth of faith in Christ can yes, be spectacular.

But the authentic soul, the authentic Christian soul can only be by dying to self. One must pick up one’s cross daily.

And it is not fair to judge the souls running the Vatican…albeit we are hearing about scandals at the Vatican…but we do not know how many clerics start each day in self denial in the halls. And a priest told me the key is detachment from all things and I assume there are many there in Rome who do the same.

I rather see Church properties as believers’ glorifying Christ by the works of their hands, as is repeated at every Mass at the Liturgy of the Eucharist…we give the Lord the work of our hands to offer with Christ as an acceptable sacrifice to the Father.

If the Vatican is destroyed by the Hand of God, so be it. It is the Lord Who sustains the Church, nothing more.

I would also add that Pope John Paul II slept on the floor with a pillow before his pontificate. Pope Benedict was very frail and said his pontificate would be short. Pope John XXIII had a marvelous sense of humor and was quite detached from his surroundings. Pope Pius XII was in so many liturgical celebrations using the splendors of his office…but he pretty much alone led the universal Church during the worst time of the 20th century. Each one had a purpose and I really cannot honestly say that the leadership of the Church by our past popes were those guilty of self indulgence of riches and position. On the contrary they suffered very much for the world.
 
gazelam said:
Here are links to two talk he gave referring to his childhood.

lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/two-principles-for-any-economy?lang=eng
lds.org/general-conference/2006/04/see-the-end-from-the-beginning?lang=eng
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I have to read his speeches? Don’t you know what his hardships were?

… Okay, I read the first one. I won’t read the second, assuming it to be no more informative than the first. I have to ask again, what is the definition of “hardship”? I’m not trying to imply anything negative. I really do not understand what “hardship” means. I have not considered a small home, or living in a single room, or living next to a barn, or having to skip a meal now and then, or not having hot water or an indoor toilet, “hardships.” To me, those things are just part of growing up. A hardship to me would be having one leg missing, or being blind, or having to work more than 12 hours a day, or watching my parents or children starve, or growing up without an education, or being beaten or tortured for my beliefs or whatever.
 
Kount_C said:
Hello Mormon friends,

I’m not knocking the church or the faith, but does it bother you that the leaders in your church are all wealthy men or powerful men ? I feel that a lot of the leaders in the LDS church preach from an Ivory Tower. How do you interpret their elite standings in life compared to your own, if you are just a regular guy like me?
Code: 
I feel its easy to "Accept the gospel" or be "Content in life " if your an Airline Executive or
World renowned surgeon.

Thank you.
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Number 11:26 (KJV) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

Ultimately, I prefer servants of God upon whom the Holy Ghost rests. Since I know this is the case with the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, having a leader with a life experience different from mine is not really a concern to me.
 
Kount_C said:
Hello Mormon friends,

I’m not knocking the church or the faith, but does it bother you that the leaders in your church are all wealthy men or powerful men ? I feel that a lot of the leaders in the LDS church preach from an Ivory Tower. How do you interpret their elite standings in life compared to your own, if you are just a regular guy like me?
Code: 
I feel its easy to "Accept the gospel" or be "Content in life " if your an Airline Executive or
World renowned surgeon.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Not sure if your definitions or all or wealthy match mine …Kimball their most beloved prophet of the 20th century was a schoolteacher… Monson, their current prophet was an advertising agent for a newspaper before he got in the church leadership. Hunter, their prophet before Hinckley was a shoe salesman, bridge painter and a laundry detergent peddler before he got out of law school.

I don’t see wealth as an issue in Mormon leadership … the problem I see is accessibility. It’s hard for Mormons to raise complaints and issues with the leadership; there’s not much of a process as best I can tell, and the process they do have, raising one’s hand to “oppose” a leader in open sacrament meeting, is so dramatic that most Mormons only see it happen once in their lives.
 
Sabacthani said:
… the problem I see is accessibility. It’s hard for Mormons to raise complaints and issues with the leadership; there’s not much of a process as best I can tell, and the process they do have, raising one’s hand to “oppose” a leader in open sacrament meeting, is so dramatic that most Mormons only see it happen once in their lives.
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This is very true. If there is a problem with local leadership, there is almost no point in complaining up the chain to Salt Lake since they generally kick it back down because it is a “local matter”.

I only saw someone raise one’s hand opposed once, and that person was my mother. I have no idea what it was about, but I remember she was pretty angry and I was shocked that someone actually was opposed to anything.
 
I would love to have seen it happen. My parents told me about times when there were oppositions when I was young but they were all related to ward/stake boundary changes.
 
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