Mormon Funeral - Help me understand

[jane_doe]

And… keep reading… CCC 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And are the goats ever un-resurrected? (My apologies, this sounds like such a silly question)

 

[ajcstr]

And are the goats ever un-resurrected? (My apologies, this sounds like such a silly question)

No, they are sent to eternal punishment. I guess its bodily since they are resurrected if that’s what you are asking.

Think Gehenna, outer darkness, wailing/grinding of teeth from the New Testament. The place where the devil and his angels reside.

I don’t know if this is similar to the Mormon notion of “outer darkness”

 

[jane_doe]

No, they are sent to eternal punishment. I guess its bodily since they are resurrected if that’s what you are asking.

Thank you.

 

[zaffiroborant]

My way of saying a LOT of crying at Italian funerals (I was responding to someone who said they didn’t understand the crying), not so much at Irish, a lot of it is cultural.

And when I say Italian, my father was born in Italy and my mother was first generation born in America so it may be an “old country” cultural thing.

Actually I was saying I don’t understand the lack of crying at LDS funerals or the statement by the LDS member “Why cry, it’s not like you’re not going to see them again”.

My whole family (both sides) are Irish and there’s always been a lot of crying at funeral, smiles, laughter and crying are part of wakes.

 

[lax16]

My way of saying a LOT of crying at Italian funerals (I was responding to someone who said they didn’t understand the crying), not so much at Irish, a lot of it is cultural.

And when I say Italian, my father was born in Italy and my mother was first generation born in America so it may be an “old country” cultural thing.

Okay now I understand!

My dad is Italian and I attended a few funerals in NY so I know what you mean.

Some years ago my (Irish) mom said that we would not be going to the grave site at the funeral we were attending. When I asked why she told me that some people were jumping into the graves with the coffins and getting injured so they had to stop allowing people to go to the grave site.

Now that’s a funeral!

 

[lax16]

There’s the view that Mormon beliefs regarding death, coming from Joseph Smith, were a reaction to the death of his brother Alvin. At was close to this time that he began to teach that death wasn’t really death. The person lives on and is taking care of business elsewhere. Some Mormons compare death of one of their own to having a loved one off on a mission. Sure they’re gone but not really gone. God has called them, in the Mormon usage of the word calling. God has a mission for them in the spirit world. Life goes on, as is normal for a Mormon life, for the dead.

There is the sense that you picked up that the newly departed are immediately reunited with loved ones who have passed on previously. So they imagine a young man is reunited with all the dead ancestors and they are all working together to bring more dead to proxy temple work. Mormons spend an extraordinary amount of time and effort on the dead. They believe they continue this effort for their fellow dead in the next life.

Which brings in the aspect of Mormon temples which exist to perform more rites for the dead than for the living. For Mormons, the dead aren’t dead or in jeopardy for an unfavorable judgment at their death. Mormons do not believe that we are judged at the moment of our death. Everything just goes on as it is now, in their belief.

So sure sadness at funerals, tempered by a belief that the spirit of a dead Momon continues on as usual. As earthly usual. Learning, doing missionary work, preparing other non Mormon spirits to accept the rites the living Mormns are doing as proxies in their temples.

It is dealing with death by denial that death ends one’s earthly life. The next life is the same as this life, just with extra benefits like immortal bodies and eventually godhood for some. A step on the ladder towards becoming gods.

Also, you have my sympathy for your loss.

That explains a lot. When we first moved to Utah ten years ago we were watching the local nightly news. A young child had been killed sledding with friends and family just a short time earlier.

The young mother, in full makeup and perfectly coiffed hair, calmly gave an interview with the reporter. She was relaxed and smiling and didn’t even shed a tear while she detailed the events of the accident.

I was horrified. How could a mother not mourn the loss of her little boy??!!

We have seen this time and time again. Hiking, atv, boating accidents detailed in a calm manner. At least now I understand the reason behind it.

 

[lax16]

Jane Doe,

Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I just read it and I appreciate you giving the Mormon though and answers to the questions asked.

I think the issue is a Catholic would not presume to know if there was a “Judas or Cain” there as we can’t judge the soul of another in Catholic thought, only God can do that.
Catholics do not just assume everyone will be in heaven so that’s the difference here.

I’ve learned a lot about Mormonism from this thread and thanks again!~
:tiphat:

Towards a better understanding of each other…

Mary.

Very well said, Mary. Thank you

 

[lax16]

And… keep reading… CCC 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

See above

Thank you for posting a much more thorough explanation of Catholic teaching.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That explains a lot. When we first moved to Utah ten years ago we were watching the local nightly news. A young child had been killed sledding with friends and family just a short time earlier.

The young mother, in full makeup and perfectly coiffed hair, calmly gave an interview with the reporter. She was relaxed and smiling and didn’t even shed a tear while she detailed the events of the accident.

I was horrified. How could a mother not mourn the loss of her little boy??!!

We have seen this time and time again. Hiking, atv, boating accidents detailed in a calm manner. At least now I understand the reason behind it.

The one’s that kill me are the children ran over in driveways by relatives or friends. It all seems so nonchalant. Oh well, very sad, but they’re with grandma (or whatever relative) and All Is Well…and the driver never faces prosecution of any kind!

 

[lax16]

Hi Lax.

I now have the time to give a more thorough answer (sorry about before). My condolences for the loss of your friend. I have also realized that my knowledge of Catholic post-mortal life beliefs is only super basic. So I’m going to write this for a general Christian audience and I’ll try to keep it short (feel free to ask for elaboration, this explanation is simplified).

Thanks Jane. He was a good and generous neighbor and will be greatly missed.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain LDS teachings and beliefs on the afterlife. It’s very important to know where people are coming from.

LDS post-mortal beliefs do differ from mainstream Christianity. There is no Heaven/Hell binary or fear of “did I pass?”. Rather, everyone is given ample opportunities to come to Christ, even if they did not do so in this life. Loved ones that have come unto Christ await in Paradise (different than the traditional “Heaven”) until judgement. In the meantime, their spirits are very much alive: looking after us and going about God’s work.

What about Mormons that are not good people?

Before the Final Judgement, everyone will be resurrected to a body far more wonderful than we have now. Hence, your friend’s unwavering doubt in that regard. These bodies will be free of pain & sickness, including the cancer which took your friend’s life. I would guess that talking about your friend’s resurrection was the lady’s way of mourning and looking forward to that day: there is great hope and assurance in this belief.

After the Final Judgement, there is no Heaven/Hell binary. Rather there are only* degrees of happiness and glory. God, in His great grace and mercy, gifts everyone far more then they ever deserved from their actions and beliefs here. Even a serial murderer who still rejects Christ gets a lesser degree of happiness and glorious residence. This “lesser” happiness that is described as being so wonderful that’s it’s beyond mind-boggling to our current human perception.

What about someone like Hitler?

The people whom have accepted Christ and followed Him, an even greater happiness awaits: a eternal beyond happiness with the Father, Son, Spirit, and all of our loved ones whom have likewise embraced Christ. LDS believe that a family may be “sealed” together, so that they are together eternally.

What about family members that don’t get along or have serious disagreements?

 

[lax16]

At an LDS funeral, there is sadness & mourning that we don’t get to see our loved one tomorrow, and that they will be gone for a while. And yes, some LDS do cry at funerals, including myself (note: I cry at about every occasion). **But in addition to the sadness of not seeing them for a while, funerals are also a moment of great faith & hope in Christ. Faith in His resurrection and atonement, so that we all may live together again. **

I don’t understand how Mormons are certain they are all going to heaven? Jesus said otherwise.

 

[lax16]

The one’s that kill me are the children ran over in driveways by relatives or friends. It all seems so nonchalant. Oh well, very sad, but they’re with grandma (or whatever relative) and All Is Well…and the driver never faces prosecution of any kind!

I find this extremely upsetting. Does it get better? I have been here 10 years.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I find this extremely upsetting. Does it get better? I have been here 10 years.

No.

 

[lax16]

No.

A few years ago I would pray the rosary while driving on Wasatch along the east bench mountains. The sky would be blue and the clouds puffy white and I could envision the Blessed Mother herself in her blue and white mantle looking down on me.

The thought occurred to me that the reason God made Utah so beautiful is to console those who must live here.

Every day I thank God for the beauty around me in an effort to keep positive while I must be here for my huband’s job.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A few years ago I would pray the rosary while driving on Wasatch along the east bench mountains. The sky would be blue and the clouds puffy white and I could envision the Blessed Mother herself in her blue and white mantle looking down on me.

The thought occurred to me that the reason God made Utah so beautiful is to console those who must live here.

Every day I thank God for the beauty around me in an effort to keep positive while I must be here for my huband’s job.

I do the same while driving in the same area. There are some mornings and evenings that are outstanding in beauty. When the inversion hits, not so much.

Being Catholic, here, is my refuge. A lot of Catholics here are transplants, that move on as soon as school or jobs end.

I work with a lot of people from out of state that moved here for the outdoor recreation. They didn’t know what they were in for, culturally, and I’ve explained a lot of Mormon stuff to co-workers. Such as, why does the Cub Scout troop pray Mormon prayers, and why are there groups of girls in Sunday best, meeting in the church while the boys are in Scouts The clique Mormon neighborhoods is a big jolt. The constant proselytizing of themselves and their children, is another. A Mormon funeral would blow their minds.

My parish is in the city and we have a ministry that hands out sack lunches to anyone who comes around needing some food. There are always homeless on our “campus”. Sleeping, eating, begging. Half a mile up the road, at the Mormon “campus”, the homeless are shooed off their property for trespassing. It kind of boggles my mind, sometimes, at how much everything needs an outward appearance of well-being. IMHO, it contributes to the high suicide rate. That is, the pressure to have that perfect outward appearance at all times, while it is masking serious problems.

The well-being mask is ever present at funerals. Almost like it would be bad form to just really break down and mourn at a funeral. I’ve been to three of them in the last two years…the old folks in my family are dying off. I swear, I’m the only one who sheds a tear.

 

[jane_doe]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain LDS teachings and beliefs on the afterlife. It’s very important to know where people are coming from.

Not a problem

(Reordering your post a little to make the reply easier)

What about someone like Hitler?

Hitler*, a mass murderer, gets to spend eternity in such boundless bliss that it is beyond our mortal comprehension. He will have the eternal company of the Holy Spirit. This mind-boggling happiness is God’s lesser happiness, compared to the glory of the stars.

• I am working off of the assumption that Hitler never repents for his sins and never embraces Christ. Obviously I do not know this for a fact at all.

What about Mormons that are not good people?

If someone half-heartedly embraces Christ, their joy is that compared to the moon: exponentially greater than the mind-boggling happiness described before. They reside for eternity with Christ and the Spirit.

If someone fully embraced Christ, then God can embrace that person fully. Their joy is compared to the sun: exponentially greater than the moon. They reside with the full Godhead: Father, Son, and Spirit. They are also sealed with rest of their family members.

What about family members that don’t get along or have serious disagreements?

The post-Judgement life a time where we will be Perfected in Christ. Their will be no more sin, no more short tempers, no more misunderstandings, or any other things which cause our small minded Earthly quarrels. Just Perfect and total happiness.

 

[lax16]

Not a problem

(Reordering your post a little to make the reply easier)

Hitler*, a mass murderer, gets to spend eternity in such boundless bliss that it is beyond our mortal comprehension. He will have the eternal company of the Holy Spirit. This mind-boggling happiness is God’s lesser happiness, compared to the glory of the stars.

• I am working off of the assumption that Hitler never repents for his sins and never embraces Christ. Obviously I do not know this for a fact at all.

If someone half-heartedly embraces Christ, their joy is that compared to the moon: exponentially greater than the mind-boggling happiness described before. They reside for eternity with Christ and the Spirit.

If someone fully embraced Christ, then God can embrace that person fully. Their joy is compared to the sun: exponentially greater than the moon. They reside with the full Godhead: Father, Son, and Spirit. They are also sealed with rest of their family members.

The post-Judgement life a time where we will be Perfected in Christ. Their will be no more sin, no more short tempers, no more misunderstandings, or any other things which cause our small minded Earthly quarrels. Just Perfect and total happiness.

I appreciate your sharing the LDS viewpoint on death and resurrection. However, all I keep thinking is “it’s not biblical!”

1. What exactly does a Mormon need to do to gain the highest level of heaven? (if that is the correct way to put it)
2. Would the punky (Mormon) teenagers in my neighborhood that just vandalized our house (again) go to heaven if they died tomorrow? (God forbid)
3. What about what the Bible says about getting into heaven?

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” …

Matthew 25:31-46 ESV / 37 helpful votes
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, …

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-30
And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ …

Matthew 25:46 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 19:23 ESV
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[jane_doe]

I appreciate your sharing the LDS viewpoint on death and resurrection. However, all I keep thinking is “it’s not biblical!”

I realize you feel this way, and I’m not trying to change your mind at all. Remember, LDS are not sola scriptura. If you’d like some LDS references, including to the Bible, they are included in the links I posted in #2.

 

[ajcstr]

I realize you feel this way, and I’m not trying to change your mind at all. Remember, LDS are not sola scriptura. If you’d like some LDS references, including to the Bible, they are included in the links I posted in #2.

If not from the Bible or the BOM are these teachings of Joseph Smith or a revelation of another prophet ?

 

[ajcstr]

Hi Lax.

I now have the time to give a more thorough answer (sorry about before). My condolences for the loss of your friend. I have also realized that my knowledge of Catholic post-mortal life beliefs is only super basic. So I’m going to write this for a general Christian audience and I’ll try to keep it short (feel free to ask for elaboration, this explanation is simplified).

LDS post-mortal beliefs do differ from mainstream Christianity. There is no Heaven/Hell binary or fear of “did I pass?”. Rather, everyone is given ample opportunities to come to Christ, even if they did not do so in this life. Loved ones that have come unto Christ await in Paradise (different than the traditional “Heaven”) until judgement. In the meantime, their spirits are very much alive: looking after us and going about God’s work.

Before the Final Judgement, everyone will be resurrected to a body far more wonderful than we have now. Hence, your friend’s unwavering doubt in that regard. These bodies will be free of pain & sickness, including the cancer which took your friend’s life. I would guess that talking about your friend’s resurrection was the lady’s way of mourning and looking forward to that day: there is great hope and assurance in this belief.

After the Final Judgement, there is no Heaven/Hell binary. Rather there are only* degrees of happiness and glory. God, in His great grace and mercy, gifts everyone far more then they ever deserved from their actions and beliefs here. Even a serial murderer who still rejects Christ gets a lesser degree of happiness and glorious residence. This “lesser” happiness that is described as being so wonderful that’s it’s beyond mind-boggling to our current human perception.

The people whom have accepted Christ and followed Him, an even greater happiness awaits: a eternal beyond happiness with the Father, Son, Spirit, and all of our loved ones whom have likewise embraced Christ. LDS believe that a family may be “sealed” together, so that they are together eternallyj.

(Next post tying this to your friend specifically)

*Only = exceptions for the <0.01% of people whom were close enough to God and then later blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

What is the highest level of glory one can hope to attain?