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Pork_Roll
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What do scientologists think of the Eucharist? What do JW’s think of it? What about muslims?
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SteveVH
Guest
- Scientologists: Nothing
- JW’s: Idolatry (along with flying the American flag)
- Muslims: Blasphemy
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HonoraDominum
Guest
I consider those silly little baker’s hats and aprons that men wear in the temple “pomp”, but that’s my own opinion.
Also, in regards what you may be regarding as complicated Catholic “pomp”, here’s the difference between Mormon “pomp” and Catholic ritual - all is done solely for the glory of God in the Catholic church. St. John Vianney, the Cure of Ars, would wear beautiful and elaborate chausables and vestments during Mass, but his cassocks would be threadbare and worn because the cassocks were his clothes for the world, but his vestments were for the glory of God.
It was a hard thing to wrap my mind around when I really started to understand the beauty of Catholic liturgy, that it was all for God’s glory alone. Nothing is done for Man’s glory in the liturgy. When I was Mormon, I’d sing a hymn, then drink some water out of a plastic cup that was blessed by teenagers, then listen to 3-4 non-trained people talk about different subjects, then sing again, and then go to two more hours of classes. Even in the Temple, with its rituals, it never occurred to me that the point was to glorify God. Because it wasn’t.
But in the Mass, even in the simple daily Masses in the Extraordinary Form where the priest enters the Holy of Holies and much of the Mass is spent in silent contemplation, the purpose is nothing but clear to me. The first part of the Mass, known as the Mass of the Catechumens, is meant to teach, and the second part of the Mass, known as the Mass of the Faithful, is meant to honor God and to contemplate the mystery of Christ and the love that He had for us as he suffered, bled and died for me. Every day I contemplate that mystery.
Then, at the end of Mass, after the priest has offered himself, and all of us with him, we eat his flesh and drink his blood in the Eucharist, which contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Savior as he said HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM. For this is my body. Not this represents my body. And in John 6, Christ says over and over,I am the bread of life. It makes no sense that he would teach this over and over and over and then when He said “This is my body” that he did not truly mean that the bread was his body and wine was his blood. And people walked away speaking ill of him and repulsed by the though of eating his body. If he did not mean “This is my body”, why would John have taken that time to mention this particular phrasing of scripture and this particular lesson over and over and over in this part of his works? It makes no sense unless the Catholic church is the true church.
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:24-67[/BIBLEDRB]
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RebeccaJ
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The whole point of Mormonism is the glorification of man.
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LivingWaters7
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Allow me to provide the Latter-day Saint perspective.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is done in remembrance of the atoning sacrifice of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The Sacrament is not merely symbolic, but the bread and water used are blessed and sanctified by the priesthood. Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is not only a remembrance of Christ’s atonement, but that it also does something, namely, the renewal of our baptismal covenants. Through the Sacrament, we receive a remission of our sins, and receive the Spirit. Because this is a sacred experience for Latter-day Saints, we are called to examine ourselves prior to partaking, so that we do not partake unworthily.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is done in remembrance of the atoning sacrifice of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The Sacrament is not merely symbolic, but the bread and water used are blessed and sanctified by the priesthood. Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is not only a remembrance of Christ’s atonement, but that it also does something, namely, the renewal of our baptismal covenants. Through the Sacrament, we receive a remission of our sins, and receive the Spirit. Because this is a sacred experience for Latter-day Saints, we are called to examine ourselves prior to partaking, so that we do not partake unworthily.
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LivingWaters7
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Latter-day Saints do not “believe only symbolically” in relation to the Sacrament. Perhaps some Protestants believe that their Communion is “only symbolic”, doesn’t do anything, or nothing happens, however Latter-day Saints disagree. Of course, this isn’t an either/or situation where the only two choices are 1) it is only a symbol and does nothing/nothing happens, or 2) it becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. Instead, Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament must be performed by the authority and power of the priesthood of God, the bread and water are blessed and sanctified by that priesthood, and partaking of the blessed and sanctified bread and water renews our baptismal covenants, causes a remission of our sins, and invites the Spirit to be with us, in addition to our remembrance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.Store bought bread and water is mild compared to what I have been told by Mormons themselves. How about a juice box and saltine crackers, as was given by a Mormon bishop to someone in the hospital?(I would have to search through many Mormon threads to find that post, but I will never forget it.)
They have no concept of the true meaning of the Eucharist and believe only symbolically, so I suppose it doesn’t really matter what they use, its pretty much meaningless either way. Of course, this could be extended to most Protestant denominations as well who pass around Wonder Bread and grape juice. I’ve never understood what they really thought they were accomplishing but since they lack the authority to concecrate anyway the point is rather moot.
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LivingWaters7
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That is very odd logic. I think the symbolism behind using bread and water is clear, and I find the use of water in the Sacrament very beautiful (I guess you can assume so from my name). Whether or not those held hostage (…
) are given bread and water, it is not blessed and sanctified by the Lord’s priesthood, for the renewal of our baptismal covenant, for the remission of sins, and for the reception of the Spirit. This is no different than those who might have bread and/or wine for whatever reason, and it isn’t the same as when used sacramentally. We of course differ on what happens to the sacramental elements, however it is incorrect to compare bread and water used in a sacred ritual to what is apparently given to those held captive or hostage, since that doesn’t have the power to renew covenants, remit our sins, or invite the Spirit to be with us. And most importantly, it isn’t done in remembrance of Jesus Christ.I believe I’ve said this repeatedly on this forum. The Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, whom you accept as having valid orders and sacraments, including the Eucharist, use leavened bread. It is always interesting to me that certain Catholic critics will bring up the leavened bread issue as…an “issue”, yet that “issue” is present within the Eastern sui iuris churches of their own Church, and is therefore a non-issue.
Latter-day Saints believe that God, as He has done throughout salvation history, provides guidance on various issues, beliefs, and practices, to this day. Latter-day Saints believe that bread and water are the normative elements used in the Sacrament. However, in cases where there is no access to them, or for some other reason (maybe someone has an allergy to something in the bread), substitutes can be used, in extraordinary circumstances.
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LivingWaters7
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Oh my, why are you referring to things that many people consider sacred “silly little…”? Does that help in dialogue?
Perhaps not for you, but the temple and its rites glorify God for many who attend. Indeed, at a very basic level, we see the words “the House of the Lord” and “Holiness to the Lord” on the outside of our temples, signifying that it and the rituals done there are to glorify God and His work, and how we can return to His presence for eternity.
As a Latter-day Saint, I don’t just “drink some water out of a plastic cup that was blessed by teenagers”, I partake of blessed and sanctified bread and water in remembrance of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice, as well as to the remission of sins and reception of the Spirit of God. It is blessed and sanctified by those ordained to God’s priesthood (whether they are teenagers or not is not relevant). We then listen to the words of our fellow brothers and sisters on various topics on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Afterwards, we study the scriptures and the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Sunday School and other classes.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
No doubt, water has a sacramental meaning. Do you believe water has the same sacramental meaning as wine? Do you think it is significant that Jesus used wine and not water?
East or west, great care is taken in the preparation of the bread. (Except in unusual circumstances.) Wonder Bread? No.
Jesus did not use water, therefore what is “normative” is wine. Otherwise, you’re just ad-libbing.
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HonoraDominum
Guest
Probably not. But it doesn’t change the fact that those baker’s hats are quite silly. Sorry. I also think Biretta’s are silly, but luckily they’re only worn for a short time during Mass. And there’s meaning behind the Biretta - it’s a symbolism of priest as judge (specifically in the confessional), as the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia mentions. The baker’s hat used in Mormon temple ceremonies has its origins in the regalia worn by the York Rite Masons of the time (which were also the origins of the aprons worn in the temple ceremony today).
First, they are not ordained by God’s priesthood. Catholic priests, ordained from line that can be traced back to Peter, are holders of the authority of the priesthood of the church of Christ.
Secondly, I was Mormon, I went to many, many, many sacrament meetings, and many scripture studies. I also participated in many different temple ceremonies. While in theory the emphasis might be on God, I can remember entire days where God was not taught once. Sacrament meeting might have a talk on Pioneer day, and then maybe food storage, and then something about following the Prophets. Then a lesson in Sunday School about the Doctrine and Covenants, then a lesson in Relief Society about how to be a good wife and mother by, I don’t know, keeping up Family Home Evening or something.
The same argument can be made about Catholics to some extent - reading about saints, or about praying the daily Rosary, or Marian devotion, or something like that. But the core of our Mass is re-presenting the sacrifice of Calvary on our altars.
I can remember one time being taught about what the Catholics refer to as The Passion in an LDS church. I remember many times being taught about the “Atonement”, while Christ prayed in the Garden of Gethsemene. But as a Mormon, I completely missed the point of that prayer. The prayer was not to take on the weight of all of humanity’s sins and for that to be the suffering due for our sins. The struggle was one of resigning to the will of God. The burden was to be so heavy that he begged God to take it from him, but in the end, he prayed Not my will but Thine be done. The Passion is named from the Latin word meaning “passive”. This resignation was the point of the prayer, and the beginning of the passive acceptance of suffering as God’s will for him, and the prayer was not the end-all be-all “atonement” taught by the LDS church. The passion was the final sacrifice to God to reconcile God with man.
It was this death that was the sacrifice. Sacrifice is defined as taking an item and rendering it destroyed or useless, so as to give this item up to God. This is why in the Old Testament that sacrifices were burned. These were types describing the destruction of the son of God to come. I do not remember the theology of sacrifice ever being discussed in Mormon churches. The “Atonement” is described as suffering the penalties of sin for another. A cause and effect scenario, if you will. The Sacrifice, as taught by Catholic theology is that Christ had to suffer and to die, the death being the ultimate sacrifice to God.
I was able to find a talk about the will of God in a 2011 General Conference talk (long after I left the LDS church), but it actually brought to light a totally different issue that I hadn’t even considered. Robert D. Hale of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles says that the purpose of our existence here on earth is “to grow, develop, and be strengthened through our own experiences.” According to the very first section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it says that “God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength.”
Let me restate that so that we’re comparing apples to apples here. The purpose of a Mormon life is to grow, both here on earth, and if one is able to persevere to the end, to grow in the afterworld to be a God of one’s own earth with one’s spouse. The purpose of the life of a Catholic is to know and love God so that, if one is able to persevere to the end, we can spend eternity living with and loving God. I think that pretty much sums it up for me when I say that the Mormon church is man-centered whereas the Catholic church is God-centered.
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SteveVH
Guest
What do you believe you are eating and drinking? If it is not the body and blood of the Lord (as Jesus said it was) then it can only be a symbol. I won’t go into the priesthood authority issue as it has been discussed to the point that I don’t think I could bear it again, other than to say we can legitimately trace our priesthood authority all the way back to Christ himself. You get yours from a man who claims he had a revelation.
As far as “remembrance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ”, remembrance has nothing to do with our memories. Remembrance in the Jewish tradition meant to return to the original act and make it present. That is what happens in the sacrifice of the Mass. Christ’s sacrifice, once, for all, is made present to us. We are standing under the cross and Christ’s blood is dripping from the cross into the chalice. We are not just “remembering” that he did this. Christ’s one, true sacrifice is made present to us and we participate in it.
I do not doubt that a sincere Mormon may have some sort of spititual communion, nor do I doubt that this is the case with many Protestant churches, but you do not participate in the body and blood of the Lord (as Paul said we must) and as Christ commanded.
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Prague
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After your water and bread is blessed and sanctified and your service is over what happens to the left over blessed and stanctified water and bread? Do you keep it some where? Thanks.
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HonoraDominum
Guest
I don’t want to clutter up my last post (or re-edit), so I thought I’d do a bit more explaining on the Mormon concept of “Atonement” so as to clarify the difference between the pascal sacrifice of the Mass practiced by Catholics and the LDS practice of the sacrament.
To understand the concept of Mormon atonement, one has to be a bit familiar with the Plan of Salvation.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--mzkePWnSfY/TzyI1xL0UjI/AAAAAAAAAF8/1fTbAwVjsuI/s640/SCAN0002.JPG
Parenthetical sidenote: Note that Love is nowhere shown as being required on this chart.
According to the Plan of Salvation, all spirits were conceived and created by God before the earth was formed. We all lived with God. Then there was a “Council in Heaven” with all the children spirits, and it was decided that the human race would be shut out of God’s presence if they did not follow God’s commandments. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland states that Christ was the only spirit with enough humility and willingness to accept this service. Lucifer wanted the job, and when he didn’t get it, he left Heaven and took about 1/3 of the angels with him. (This is the theology behind the claim that anti-Mormons make that “Mormons say that Jesus was Satan’s brother”. Because according to Mormon theology, technically we are too.) According to L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the Fall of Adam and Eve was not a “great disaster” or even a “mistake” - it was part of God’s deliberate plan of salvation. Again, according to Perry, if we had not partaken of the bitter we would not be able to savor the sweet. Also, people in a “perfect” state, as Adam and Eve were before the fall, were not able to have children according to LDS theology. But Moses 5:10-11 in the Book of Abraham teaches that Adam and Eve rejoiced in the opportunities that they were given after the Fall. Also, fun fact: According to the LDS religion, Adam was actually St. Michael the Archangel.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ has both conditional and unconditional gifts, according to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. The unconditional gifts include remission of original sin (as committed by Adam and Eve), and resurrection to every being who was ever born. The conditional aspects of this atonement include mercy for sins of which one has repented, and the time of resurrection (the most faithful being resurrected first), and the final achievement of the highest degree of glory if one (and one’s spouse if one is a woman) persevere to the end.
It is also important to remember that key elements of the Atonement are different from the Passion taught in the Catholic church because these unique teachings are found only in the Book of Mormon. President Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon provides the most complete explanation of the doctrine of Atonement. Here’s a few of these references for those who choose to read further:
To understand the concept of Mormon atonement, one has to be a bit familiar with the Plan of Salvation.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--mzkePWnSfY/TzyI1xL0UjI/AAAAAAAAAF8/1fTbAwVjsuI/s640/SCAN0002.JPG
Parenthetical sidenote: Note that Love is nowhere shown as being required on this chart.
According to the Plan of Salvation, all spirits were conceived and created by God before the earth was formed. We all lived with God. Then there was a “Council in Heaven” with all the children spirits, and it was decided that the human race would be shut out of God’s presence if they did not follow God’s commandments. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland states that Christ was the only spirit with enough humility and willingness to accept this service. Lucifer wanted the job, and when he didn’t get it, he left Heaven and took about 1/3 of the angels with him. (This is the theology behind the claim that anti-Mormons make that “Mormons say that Jesus was Satan’s brother”. Because according to Mormon theology, technically we are too.) According to L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the Fall of Adam and Eve was not a “great disaster” or even a “mistake” - it was part of God’s deliberate plan of salvation. Again, according to Perry, if we had not partaken of the bitter we would not be able to savor the sweet. Also, people in a “perfect” state, as Adam and Eve were before the fall, were not able to have children according to LDS theology. But Moses 5:10-11 in the Book of Abraham teaches that Adam and Eve rejoiced in the opportunities that they were given after the Fall. Also, fun fact: According to the LDS religion, Adam was actually St. Michael the Archangel.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ has both conditional and unconditional gifts, according to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. The unconditional gifts include remission of original sin (as committed by Adam and Eve), and resurrection to every being who was ever born. The conditional aspects of this atonement include mercy for sins of which one has repented, and the time of resurrection (the most faithful being resurrected first), and the final achievement of the highest degree of glory if one (and one’s spouse if one is a woman) persevere to the end.
It is also important to remember that key elements of the Atonement are different from the Passion taught in the Catholic church because these unique teachings are found only in the Book of Mormon. President Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon provides the most complete explanation of the doctrine of Atonement. Here’s a few of these references for those who choose to read further:
- The Fall of Adam and Eve as being essential to the Plan of Salvation - 2 Ne. 2:22–23
- The Atonement of Christ repeals the curse of Adam (original sin), so infant baptism not necessary - Moroni 8:8, 10, 20
- The Atonement is finite in its redemption - it does not include the sin of “denial of the Holy Ghost” - Alma 39:6
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TexanKnight
Guest
Jesus said what to use. Your prophet, despite what you believe, is not superior to Jesus. You are a prisoner to false prophets…and bread and water is what they give to prisoners.
Come home to the truth
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TexanKnight
Guest
Blood oaths, where you vow to kill and be killed are always simple. It is not from God, obviously…but killing is simple.
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rfournier103
Guest
I love this. Thank you for sharing it!
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PaulDupre
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The left-overs are thrown into the garbage.
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Janderich
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Let me try and explain a little more. We have been given in the D&C and Book of Mormon the words of the sacrament prayer. Here is the prayer for the bread:
In regards to your question, I would like to point out some important terms:
"to bless and sanctify this bread" - Yes the bread is sanctified to those who meet certain conditions. However, if they do not, it is does not sanctify them. After all, can one eat in sin and expect sanctification? We have these words from the Book of Mormon, “For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul” (3 Ne 18:29, see also 1 Cor 11:29)
"to the souls of all those who partake of it" - The blessing is only to those who eat the bread.
"take upon them the name of they Son" - They also must be willing to see themselves as His by taking His name upon them.
"Always remember him" - They must be willing to remember the Son in their daily walk.
"Keep his commandments" - They must recommit to keep his commandments.
Then, and only then, for that person is the bread sanctified. The bread then becomes an outward symbol of an inner commitment to follow Christ. Without the commitment, without the covenant it is simply bread. The making and keeping of covenants is the key. Thus we do not need to attach special meaning to a piece of bread that was never intended. Indeed by doing so one may be approaching idolatry rather than worship.
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TexanKnight
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No…it becomes a mockery of what Jesus wanted…and represents the prison you are in…
Come home
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antihippy79
Guest
Ok so it’s settled. Mormons believe the Eucharist is a symbol. All cleared up now! Thanks.
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