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smirknoff
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You did nothing wrong here. Where it got silly was when others assumed that this was an actual les belief.
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Telstar
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I don’t think anyone here assumed it was an actual LDS belief. But, I think the OP and others are curious about whether or not the LDS church teaches that Jesus will return by being born to another mother (most likely as a LDS), since some of them seem to think that other ‘prophets’ might also have been (or will be) ‘reborn’ in a similar way (Elijah and Enoch?). Since they tend to understand most things of the Bible in a very literal human sense, and that we all existed long before we were born, that POV would not be out of the scope of their belief system. After all, they think that God was once a ‘regular guy’ like the rest of us, and had to have been ‘born’ on another planet more than once, in order to fully progress in his ‘godhood’. So, even stranger things are not all that difficult for anyone here to believe about them. They really do have some very bizarre ways of looking at all scripture, and with all of their ‘secret knowledge’ in a closed Temple, I wouldn’t be surprised that they could really believe this kind of thing, at all.
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Lefty0908
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Yup. And don’t forget that we also believe that if Hale-Bopp had been a bigger comet, all us Mormons could’ve ridden “home” with the Heaven’s Gate people (one of God’s … I mean god’s … rare mistakes - but you can’t expect too much from a “regular guy” beyond him buying you a beer every now and then … that we can’t drink anyway!).
We also believe that the Beatles actually were more popular than Jesus.
And as a temple-attending Mormon, I believe my dog has been endowed with special powers from Kolob that enables him to perform calculus (you can read all about that in the Book of Abraham).
You people kill me. At one time I thought Catholics were more thoughtful and analytically capable than your typical backwater Evangelical anti-Mormon.
This thread has pretty much disabused me of that notion.
We also believe that the Beatles actually were more popular than Jesus.
And as a temple-attending Mormon, I believe my dog has been endowed with special powers from Kolob that enables him to perform calculus (you can read all about that in the Book of Abraham).
You people kill me. At one time I thought Catholics were more thoughtful and analytically capable than your typical backwater Evangelical anti-Mormon.
This thread has pretty much disabused me of that notion.
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CalCatholic
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Why don’t you refer to the specific Catholics on this tread that you disagree with instead of grouping all 1.2 billion Catholics around the world in one group of ‘you Catholics.’
Stephen168
New member
I’d rather see a Mormon refer to the incorrect statement and correct it. When I see posts like lefty0908’s, I think there must be some truth to the subject they are ranting about or else they would have addressed it directly.Why don’t you refer to the specific Catholics on this tread that you disagree with instead of grouping all 1.2 billion Catholics around the world in one group of ‘you Catholics.’
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RebeccaJ
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I don’t know one Mormon who believes Jesus lives in Utah.
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CompSciGuy
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Lefty, please read the original post. This thread is a response to information that was spread by door-to-door missionaries and I was asking does any particular branch of mormons believe this. It is a response to interactions with the missionaries. That is all.
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CompSciGuy
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P.S. that dog of yours would have come in really handy around freshman year. Perhaps I could borrow him sometime.
Stephen168
New member
Are there Mormons who believe the Apostle John is still alive?I don’t know one Mormon who believes Jesus lives in Utah.
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Sunstone
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Here’s the straight scoop:
Members of the LDS Church share the same nouns, but not necessarily the same meanings. They can believe a wide variety of things, as long as they proffer the shared nouns when teaching classes, speaking in Sacrament Meeting, or otherwise acting officially. There isn’t much probing of the actual beliefs of members, and if members adhere to those nouns they’ll mostly avoid Church Discipline.
The LDS hierarchy uses those nouns to teach whatever is convenient to its purposes at the time. This is how the endless contradictions in Mormonism are reconciled; current leaders have the authority to say what is relevant right now and to interpret it. This is how a church can build a $3 billion mall, mobilize resources after disasters, and fail to sound coherent to Christendom.
None of the major branches of Mormonism would be teaching, as doctrine or common belief, what the person at RCIA said was taught at the doorstep. There are a few tiny, fringe groups that might be that goofy, and there’s always the possibility that the Mormons at the door were off their rocker like the Laffertys and Mitchell, or like the other oddballs who hang around near Temple Square.
Members of the LDS Church share the same nouns, but not necessarily the same meanings. They can believe a wide variety of things, as long as they proffer the shared nouns when teaching classes, speaking in Sacrament Meeting, or otherwise acting officially. There isn’t much probing of the actual beliefs of members, and if members adhere to those nouns they’ll mostly avoid Church Discipline.
The LDS hierarchy uses those nouns to teach whatever is convenient to its purposes at the time. This is how the endless contradictions in Mormonism are reconciled; current leaders have the authority to say what is relevant right now and to interpret it. This is how a church can build a $3 billion mall, mobilize resources after disasters, and fail to sound coherent to Christendom.
None of the major branches of Mormonism would be teaching, as doctrine or common belief, what the person at RCIA said was taught at the doorstep. There are a few tiny, fringe groups that might be that goofy, and there’s always the possibility that the Mormons at the door were off their rocker like the Laffertys and Mitchell, or like the other oddballs who hang around near Temple Square.
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RebeccaJ
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That belief is scriptural (Mormon scriptures, not the Bible).
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PaulDupre
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It is far more likely that the young woman misunderstood what the mishies told her. They probably told her about the part of the Book of Mormon where Jesus visits the Nephites in the Americas after His resurrection and she thought they were talking about something that happened recently. The mishies were probably from Utah so she thought they were claiming that Jesus is currently in Utah.
Since nowadays the mishies are encouraged to explain things in their own words instead of reciting a script, they sometimes explain things very poorly.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
Since nowadays the mishies are encouraged to explain things in their own words instead of reciting a script, they sometimes explain things very poorly.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Lefty0908
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Thanks for your measured response, CompSciGuy. It’s more gracious than my obvious sarcasm deserves, so let me take a deep breath and a Lortab and see if I can react a little more appropriately.
I totally agree with you that “bizarre” is the exact word to characterize any teaching “that Jesus is here on earth in person, human form, living in Utah and making prophecies.” It just strains my credulity to think any of our missionaries would actually claim anything that dopey as being a teaching of our Church. I can only think that it wasn’t “our guys” or that there was some kind of total breakdown in communication between them and the girl in your group.
To be sure, doctrinal “loose cannons” can be found among our people just the same as with any religious group. And the vast majority of our missionaries are drawn from the pool of our 19-21 year-olds, which age group also happens to embody our least experienced and sometimes least doctrinally informed members.
But our leaders are well aware of that fact, and pretty tight control is kept over the content of what it is the missionaries are to teach. They are to stick with the core doctrines of our Church and the foundational truth stories of its establishment. “Jesus in Utah” not only doesn’t fit that mold, it’s not even in the realm of anything I’ve ever heard taught in my life in the Church. Nor am I aware that this is a teaching of any “splinter group” that has broken from us. Those people are typically one-trick-pony polygamists who live in a totally closed society and don’t send out missionaries.
Great line about wishing you had my “calculus dog!”
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Lefty0908
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Yes, there are. We consider John’s tarrying until the Lord’s Second Coming to be doctrinally sound based on Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, and the episode with Peter recorded in John 21:21-23.
I know various other interpretations of these scriptures can be had. Ours is based on a revelation given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in April 1829 and canonized as Section 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants, as well as a reference made by the Savior in III Nephi 28:67 in the Book of Mormon. If you want to read them, they are here: lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng
Beyond what is stated in those verses, we don’t know much about what it is that comprises John’s work in the world now. In my own experience as a Latter-day Saint, it’s not much spoken of beyond the citations I gave you. Of course there is plenty of hearsay floating about (Mormons love a good spiritual urban legend or faith promoting rumor as well as anyone), but I don’t give it much creedence, just as you probably don’t consider every report of a Marian Apparition or other theophany as being credible.
Stephen168
New member
I was thinking maybe this could be part of the girls confusion. She got too much Mormon ahistorical (name removed by moderator)ut in one meeting.
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Telstar
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I must admit that all of those Bible passages do seem to hint that John could still be alive, somewhere in the world. I had always wondered if it was true, too. They also hint that there might even be more than one that would ‘remain’, because Jesus refers to “some who stand here”. But, I think Jesus was most likely speaking about some of them seeing the Kingdom of God in visions. John certainly did when he wrote the Apocalypse, and Peter also received visions, such as the one about following the Old Law about eating things that were considered to be ‘unclean’. I have no doubt that they, and others, probably had many other visions that were never recorded in official documents. St. Paul also, clearly had visions, such as the one where he was converted. Those things were probably much more common for them, than they have ever been at any other point in history.
All throughout the history of the Catholic Church, there have been many other great Saints that have had a lot of visions (as well as many people that claimed they did, though they were proved to be false). It’s something that is fairly common, and one of the ways that God remains in direct communication with the Church. One of the most recent ‘approved’ visionaries that I can think of was Padré Pio (he died in 1968), who always seemed to be in an ecstatic vision during the Consecration, at every Mass he said. He also had several visions of Jesus and the Blessed Mother, that he wrote about in his letters to his spiritual director.
Every night, Padré Pio was physically attacked by demons (they hated the fact that he was saving so many souls
), and the other Friars could clearly hear them bellowing and beating him. The next morning he would often have fresh bruises where the devil had thrown him against a wall, but he just laughed it off. The devil also tried, many times, to come to him as an ‘angel’ or some other holy Saint, but if Padré Pio suspected that it was not real, he would ‘test’ the vision by asking it to pray with him, or by making some kind of statement praising the Glory and goodness of God, and the vision would instantly vanish… POOF! The devil will never praise God or any of the Saints, nor will he ever say the Our Father as it’s properly said, or make the sign of the cross, correctly. He hates all of that ‘holy’ stuff and will run away, every time.
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Lefty0908
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Thanks, Telstar. Pretty impressive and uplifting. I struggle to get my mind around fewer than 120 years of my own Church’s modern history. That so many of you involve yourselves with trying to grasp two millenia of Church history is very admirable. My Catholic brother always teases me that all I have to do is name 16 presidents of my Church and that I’d best not ask him to recite the names of all 265 Popes (is my number correct?).I must admit that all of those Bible passages do seem to hint that John could still be alive, somewhere in the world. I had always wondered if it was true, too. They also hint that there might even be more than one that would ‘remain’, because Jesus refers to “some who stand here”. But, I think Jesus was most likely speaking about some of them seeing the Kingdom of God in visions. John certainly did when he wrote the Apocalypse, and Peter also received visions, such as the one about following the Old Law about eating things that were considered to be ‘unclean’. I have no doubt that they, and others, probably had many other visions that were never recorded in official documents. St. Paul also, clearly had visions, such as the one where he was converted. Those things were probably much more common for them, than they have ever been at any other point in history.
All throughout the history of the Catholic Church, there have been many other great Saints that have had a lot of visions (as well as many people that claimed they did, though they were proved to be false). It’s something that is fairly common, and one of the ways that God remains in direct communication with the Church. One of the most recent ‘approved’ visionaries that I can think of was Padré Pio (he died in 1968), who always seemed to be in an ecstatic vision during the Consecration, at every Mass he said. He also had several visions of Jesus and the Blessed Mother, that he wrote about in his letters to his spiritual director.
Every night, Padré Pio was physically attacked by demons (they hated the fact that he was saving so many souls
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mwok
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The Apostle St. John IS still alive!!! He’s guarding the Holy Grail!!
Sheesh, doesn’t anyone watch Indian Jones and The Last Crusade anymore?!
Sheesh, doesn’t anyone watch Indian Jones and The Last Crusade anymore?!
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Telstar
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Thank you, Lefty. I’m very far from being an ‘expert’, by any stretch of the imagination. But, after 50+ years of accumulating knowledge, I’ve picked up quite a few things, here & there. But, I’m sure there are thousands of times more stuff than I know, that I’ve never even heard about. It’s pretty humbling when I think about it.Thanks, Telstar. Pretty impressive and uplifting. I struggle to get my mind around fewer than 120 years of my own Church’s modern history. That so many of you involve yourselves with trying to grasp two millenia of Church history is very admirable. My Catholic brother always teases me that all I have to do is name 16 presidents of my Church and that I’d best not ask him to recite the names of all 265 Popes (is my number correct?).
BTW… I had to look it up because I really didn’t know, but here’s a list of all of the 266 Popes of the Catholic Church. You were pretty close.
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Telstar
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That wasn’t St. John, you silly willy. It was the last of King Arthur’s knights!
Side note: I love the line, “He chose, poorly.”
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