Mormon Missionaries secretly teaching an underage girl

[BartBurk]

On Post #19, Zaff said: “I note also that the LDS here agree with these methods, this lines up with what I’ve read elsewhere.”

It seems foolish to infer that just because 14,999,999 mormons have not come on this site and explicitly condemned the practice on this thread, that we “agree with these methods.”

If it wasn’t blitheringly obvious that I condemn the practice, then read my lips: I condemn the practice of missionaries teaching minor children the Gospel without parental approval. Do you need me to sign the statement in blood before you stop accusing me of approving it, marjk?

I know from experience that teaching a minor without permission would not have been acceptable in the Indiana Indianapolis mission. I also know that when I was being taught in Iowa as a teenager that the missionaries would not do it without my parents also being involved. In Venezuela we taught teens occasionally, but the parents always knew about it and we did it in the parents’ house. What is being described here is something which in my experience is highly unusual.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Telstar,

This thread sort of belongs in tabloid journalism. One ought to really find out reality before jumping to conclusions from someone else’s conjecture.

Here are some reality checks on this subject:

1. A minor child under age eighteen would need specific written permission of both parents or the custodial parent if that child desires to be baptized as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The missionaries of course know this. They of course under normal circumstances seek the parents’ permission if a child has requested to receive the missionary lessons and it is going to be done in someone else’s home such as a friend’s home.

1. If it is a young woman or a single woman there will always be other adults present and not just two young women, by the rules for the missionaries for their visiting and their teaching.
2. If the missionaries persisted in teaching a young person without the parental permission, it would soon be figured out by district or zone leaders as they discuss who is being taught and visited by the specific missionaries, and the missionaries would be told they need to stop visiting with the young person, and be reminded that the young person can only be baptized after age eighteen if the parents haven’t consented, and be reminded that parental consent for baptism before age eighteen would need to be in writing, and that they are sent out to teach those who are reasonably considered to be able to be baptized within the period of time when they are being taught–not three years later.

So there’s the reality, as compared with the conjecture that has been propounded on this thread in several cases.

Peace to you and all readers.

It’s not “tabloid” in the least. On the Mormon Dialog board there was a discussion about going against families wishes and being baptized. There were 3 people who told their stories of being given the missionary lessons at 14 or 15. 1 or 2 without parents knowledge. Other boards have similar tales as do 2 people I’m acquainted with, so it’s not unusual. Perhaps this is another case where LDS have “rules” they can point to while having no actual intention of following them.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No offense intended, but if it were my daughter, I would never allow her to go back to that house, for her own soul’s protection.

That and the parents would have proved themselves untrustworthy. My kids are to dear to me to trust them to people who deceive me.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Having been raised LDS and having been an LDS teenager, I knew it was harmless experimentation, but I would have them ask their parents if it was OK to do anything I knew was not generally alright with Mormons.

This.

Over the years I’ve had parents of my children’s friends check with me about a myriad of things my kids would be doing if they were in their homes. Everything from checking to see if a particular movie was ok to checking if it was ok to take them to a “Halloween” store or if it was ok to bring them along to Awanas. Jeesh even a woman I see every day at school and most Sundays (and Saturdays) at church checked with me before taking my daughter to church on Ash Wednesday. Parents have also informed me if other people will be in their home during my child’s visit, situations like teen age parties, bible studies and poker nights.

When I was babysitting kids over the summer and was a volunteer at our VCBS I specifically told parents that I would be doing that and they would need to make other arrangements for that week or their kids would have to go with mine.

 

[maryjk]

On Post #19, Zaff said: “I note also that the LDS here agree with these methods, this lines up with what I’ve read elsewhere.”

It seems foolish to infer that just because 14,999,999 mormons have not come on this site and explicitly condemned the practice on this thread, that we “agree with these methods.”

If it wasn’t blitheringly obvious that I condemn the practice, then read my lips: I condemn the practice of missionaries teaching minor children the Gospel without parental approval. Do you need me to sign the statement in blood before you stop accusing me of approving it, marjk?

go off the deep end much?

I was simply explaining to another poster what I thought zaffiroborant meant. I am not accusing you anything.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hosemonkey is making loopy and extreme arguments as usual but he is right that Rebecca’s hit the nail on the head.

Thank you very much for agreeing that mormons do sneaky things and by “loopy and extreme” you mean “right on target.” There may be hope for you yet.

 

[Telstar]

That and the parents would have proved themselves untrustworthy. My kids are to dear to me to trust them to people who deceive me.

Exactly!

As other people have said, this might just be an example of a family that thinks they can do whatever they want, without any regard even for their own church’s rules against it. There are certainly good and bad examples of people in any faith. This one just seems to be one of those examples of people that think they’re ‘above the law’ and don’t really need to follow the rules. If the shoe was on the other foot, I’m pretty sure they would have been just as livid if their own daughter was the one that was being secretly proselytized into the Catholic faith, or any other church (maybe even FLDS?).

 

[Tamarack]

This all reminds me of my youth in a small Mormon town. Don’t recall whether my parents’ permission was required, but I took the lessons in our living room with my saintly mother in the next room. When I went across the state to be a Senate page for five weeks (age 18, h.s. senior), missionaries appeared at the door and wanted to schedule my baptism. I laughed at their presumption and was shocked they would try to baptize me once I was away from home.
The missionaries took ‘no’ for an answer, but kept appearing at the door to hang out with my friend from home and me, particularly on their days off. They were nice, earnest young men.
But I remember the heartache of Catholic families whose children were converted under their noses, particularly one family from Mexico. My mom, God rest her soul, could never figure out how a church could claim to value families and yet condone teenagers’ conversions.

 

[ParkerD]

… My mom, God rest her soul, could never figure out how a church could claim to value families and yet condone teenagers’ conversions.

Tamarack,

Not to beat a dead horse, but since there is more to religion than a heritage, and since teenagers can really have true to life spiritual experiences that can change their heart from the inside out, while changing their relationships from the outside in because they learn to treat people differently, and can bring a great sense of peace into their life and their relationships, then one who finds this kind of treasure can understand why leaving a religious heritage, although difficult particularly for a teenager who is disappointing perhaps a grandmother and others yet is acting within the realm of their own choice, is a choice that is plausible, and Biblical.

As far as an earlier comment about youth learning about other beliefs, I remember hoping someone would stop by my home when I was a teenager and I would share gospel insights, from the Bible, with them, hoping those insights might benefit them. I would have enjoyed having my teenagers have that kind of experience.

 

[rainman10]

Tamarack,

Not to beat a dead horse, but since there is more to religion than a heritage, and since teenagers can really have true to life spiritual experiences that can change their heart from the inside out, while changing their relationships from the outside in because they learn to treat people differently, and can bring a great sense of peace into their life and their relationships, then one who finds this kind of treasure can understand why leaving a religious heritage, although difficult particularly for a teenager who is disappointing perhaps a grandmother and others yet is acting within the realm of their own choice, is a choice that is plausible, and Biblical.

As far as an earlier comment about youth learning about other beliefs, I remember hoping someone would stop by my home when I was a teenager and I would share gospel insights, from the Bible, with them, hoping those insights might benefit them. I would have enjoyed having my teenagers have that kind of experience.

Parker, does this mean you actually approve of this kind of practice? That is what it appears to be.

 

[rainman10]

Tamarack,

Not to beat a dead horse, but since there is more to religion than a heritage, and since teenagers can really have true to life spiritual experiences that can change their heart from the inside out, while changing their relationships from the outside in because they learn to treat people differently, and can bring a great sense of peace into their life and their relationships, then one who finds this kind of treasure can understand why leaving a religious heritage, although difficult particularly for a teenager who is disappointing perhaps a grandmother and others yet is acting within the realm of their own choice, is a choice that is plausible, and Biblical.

As far as an earlier comment about youth learning about other beliefs, I remember hoping someone would stop by my home when I was a teenager and I would share gospel insights, from the Bible, with them, hoping those insights might benefit them. I would have enjoyed having my teenagers have that kind of experience.

How is going against your parents wishes biblical? So if one of your teenagers had been taught Catholicism behind your back and decided to convert, it would be ok with you because it will bring a great sense of peace into their life and their relationships and they will learn to treat people differently?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Thank you very much for agreeing that mormons do sneaky things and by “loopy and extreme” you mean “right on target.” There may be hope for you yet.

 

[Tamarack]

Parker, I’d be interested to learn how it is biblical to devastate one’s parents. Certainly not by the 4th commandment (5th if LDS follow the Protestant list.)…

Now if the parents don’t care, that’s a different matter.

 

[hosemonkey]

But as it is, I’m as embarrassed by your behavior as anyone else here.

Pete, you seem to be the only one embarrassed here. mormon missionaries trying to dupe a 15 year-old would be embarrassing to you, I’m sure.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, does this mean you actually approve of this kind of practice? That is what it appears to be.

Rainman10,

Here is what I would agree with and what I would disagree with from points raised on this thread:

1. I believe that teenagers can have thoughts, ideas, and insights that come from their own study and thinking and do not need to agree with what they were taught by their parents. I have learned from my children in many instances when they showed the determination to disagree with me and carry on their own thought process and explain their point of view. I have appreciated their perspective, and learned from it.
2. I agree with BartBurk that it would be better for a parent in the situation where their child has expressed an interest in learning about another religion, for the parent to be involved if they wish, so that they will be able to know how to explain what the youth might have heard and how it relates to what they have been taught otherwise.
3. Since I know of no cases where Latter-day Saint adults had a youth taught in their home without the knowledge of the parents of the youth unless it were to answer questions that came up when the youth asked questions, then I only respond as a hypothetical case, but my response to the hypothetical case of that happening is that I disagree with any adults who would do that, and certainly with any missionaries who would continue to teach a youth beyond an initial answering questions if parents had conveyed specifically that their youth not be taught, until they were eighteen.
4. Love and kindness are not “bombs”, but I guess if someone feels like they need to be wary of being “bombed” by love, then they have other worries in their life that go along with that worry.

 

[ParkerD]

How is going against your parents wishes biblical? So if one of your teenagers had been taught Catholicism behind your back and decided to convert, it would be ok with you because it will bring a great sense of peace into their life and their relationships and they will learn to treat people differently?

Rainman10,

I consider myself to have been very fortunate to have communicative children who have a close relationship with their mom particularly, and to a lesser extent with me but are willing to say what’s on their minds to each of us, usually. If they were thinking about religious concepts, our relationship is such that they would feel OK about bringing up questions or challenging what they had been taught if they thought differently on a subject such as religion. So we would hear about it sooner rather than later, and we also know where our youth are, with what friends and what they are doing, by asking questions and doing the engaging conversations and the listening and the discerning that parents do.

The Biblical aspect I noted had to do with the Savior’s teaching as recounted in Matthew 10:37 and 35. Children can honor their parents while also disagreeing with them.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Rainman10,

I consider myself to have been very fortunate to have communicative children who have a close relationship with their mom particularly, and to a lesser extent with me but are willing to say what’s on their minds to each of us, usually. If they were thinking about religious concepts, our relationship is such that they would feel OK about bringing up questions or challenging what they had been taught if they thought differently on a subject such as religion. So we would hear about it sooner rather than later, and we also know where our youth are, with what friends and what they are doing, by asking questions and doing the engaging conversations and the listening and the discerning that parents do.

The Biblical aspect I noted had to do with the Savior’s teaching as recounted in Matthew 10:37 and 35. Children can honor their parents while also disagreeing with them.

Parker, I agree with you that mormons would be less whiny and hyperbolic if the situation were reversed. Just as my own parents were pleased and not upset to find out that I’d been taken to Mass without their knowledge or consent. Far from the “cult” nonsense that gets flung around by the ignorant, mormons are far less protective of alternate religious doctrines that their children are exposed to, than say, Catholics. Like Joseph Smith said, “teach the people correct principles, then let them govern themselves.”

Nevertheless, do you not agree that what the LDS parents and missionaries supposedly did in the original post, was wrong, shows disrespect for the family structure?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I agree with you that mormons would be less whiny and hyperbolic if the situation were reversed. Just as my own parents were pleased and not upset to find out that I’d been taken to Mass without their knowledge or consent. Far from the “cult” nonsense that gets flung around by the ignorant, mormons are far less protective of alternate religious doctrines that their children are exposed to, than say, Catholics. Like Joseph Smith said, “teach the people correct principles, then let them govern themselves.”

Nevertheless, do you not agree that what the LDS parents and missionaries supposedly did in the original post, was wrong, shows disrespect for the family structure?

Cowboy Pete,

I have appreciated all your posts and both your candor and your insights.

If that hypothetical were true, then I would think it showed disrespect for the parents of the youth and also showed that the adults involved didn’t know understand that–

for a youth to feel the Holy Ghost and then not be able to respond by making the covenant of baptism, is not putting them into a fair and balanced position in their life, and thus they would be ignoring that the parents need to give written consent for baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost (confirmation).

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Wow, I had not even thought of that. So it’s even more wrong than they’ve made it out to be, though for an entirely different reason.

Nevertheless, I imagine that fewer than 2% of the readers of this thread understand the implications of what you just said. Even the few who are actually trying to understand.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Parker, I agree with you that mormons would be less whiny and hyperbolic if the situation were reversed. Just as my own parents were pleased and not upset to find out that I’d been taken to Mass without their knowledge or consent. Far from the “cult” nonsense that gets flung around by the ignorant, mormons are far less protective of alternate religious doctrines that their children are exposed to, than say, Catholics. Like Joseph Smith said, “teach the people correct principles, then let them govern themselves.”

Nevertheless, do you not agree that what the LDS parents and missionaries supposedly did in the original post, was wrong, shows disrespect for the family structure?

Mass is not correctly compared to missionary lessons, apples to oranges and all. After all no one at Mass is going to ask a child (to paraphrase the questions in the missionary manual)
Do you believe the Chruch is the one established by Christ with Peter as it’s head?
Do you believe Pope Benedict is Christ’s vicar on earth? What does that mean to you?
Or ask them to make commitments such as
Will you read and pray to know that the CCC hold the teachings of Christ’s true and only church on earth?
Will you pray to know that the Pope is Christ’s vicar on earth?
Will you attend church with us next Sunday?

It is really a ludicrous comparison considering there is a perfectly apt comparison in your sacrament meeting. As to your whiny and hyperbolic comment all that does is show that, in-spite of your words otherwise, you really don’t think this is an offensive practice.