Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

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twopekinguys said:
How about people get back on topic? This incident has NOTHING to do with Aztecs, Ireland, Baltic States. , etc. etc. etc. Mormons do things wrong, Catholics do things wrong. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. What happened to Christian compassion? A bad incident happened. The LDS has apologized, and is going to deal with the issues according to their rules/regulations etc. We as Catholics should be Christian enough, and gracious enough to accept that apology. It is also wrong to come into any religous forum to bad mouth another religion. Civil discussions concerning the differences between different religions is good, but the snide and sniping comments don’t get anyone anywhere.
God Bless!!!
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Amen. As for me, I wash my hands of this particular thread, I think we have said all that needs to be said, in way too many words.
 
I don’t think the LDS church is at primary fault here though. I think the individuals who did this should be giving the apology. (one did although he he did not indicate any understanding of why what he did was wrong and he used it a s platform to decry persecution of mormons) I also think it reasonable to point out the the response so far from LDS who have posted comments to the newspaper articles on this and on the boards that whyme keeps advertising for. They seem to show an attitude that I believe is representative of LDS teaching which I believe to be strongly anticatholic. I don’t think it incorrect to point out that LDS doctrine is anticatholic.
 
Discussion of differences promotes understanding. Arguing promotes anger. I don’t ever remember where arguing and getting off topic caused anyone to convert.
I for one, accept the LDS apology in the spirit of Christ’s Love and forgiveness.
 
twopekinguys said:
Discussion of differences promotes understanding. Arguing promotes anger. I don’t ever remember where arguing and getting off topic caused anyone to convert.
I for one, accept the LDS apology in the spirit of Christ’s Love and forgiveness.
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Good for you, some of us actually want to reply to the blatant bomb throwing. Since it is a discussion board it appears to be the perfect place to do it. Unless you have somehow been given moderator status we’ll all continue our discussion thanks…
 
lukewarm said:
Good for you, some of us actually want to reply to the blatant bomb throwing. Since it is a discussion board it appears to be the perfect place to do it. Unless you have somehow been given moderator status we’ll all continue our discussion thanks…
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Well the quote above would take away twopekinguys free agency to post to this forum.
 
Over on the Mormon apologetics board they are still debating whether or not the hooligans broke the head off the statue, with never a thought to the desecration of the altar.

Oh well…
Paul
 
twopekinguys said:
Discussion of differences promotes understanding. Arguing promotes anger. I don’t ever remember where arguing and getting off topic caused anyone to convert.
I for one, accept the LDS apology in the spirit of Christ’s Love and forgiveness.
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Part of what we Mormons are taught is not to forgive anyone unless they prove, through deeds, that they have made amends. It is not enough in our culture for someone to simply mouth some words and move on.

The same repentance process that is demanded of individual Mormons is a standard which I think is fair to hold my church to. This is the same church which would demand the standard repentance process from me, if I published a letter simply disagreeing with them in the local paper.

I don’t accept any statements which simply “express regret” and then go on to paint the culprits as victims, and the victims as perpetrators in some greater crime against the church. It goes against the belief in personal responsibility and humility which is a part of LDS culture which I value.
 
twopekinguys said:
Here is a link to the apology. Yes, it does state the the one that was still out on his mission has now returned.
deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695260598,00.html

Personally, I think the liar comment was uncalled for.
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Thanks for the link. It only goes to support my contention that if someone who was a green was involved (if he’s still on his mission then he was only weeks into it when he committed the crime), then this behavior was truly something that was well known throughout the Mormon community and was thoroughly covered up by the local authorities, who did nothing until these dolts posted photos and admitted involvement.

As far as what you consider uncalled for: I “express regret” for the comment, and now I’d like to point out that I have been historically persecuted by the recipient and as such I think s/h/it should apologize to me for this greater crime so that we can all make amends.
 
PaulDupre said:
Over on the Mormon apologetics board they are still debating whether or not the hooligans broke the head off the statue, with never a thought to the desecration of the altar.

Oh well…
Paul
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The mormon apologists are a source of shame and disgrace to everyone, freethinking Mormons included. I don’t think there’s much of a question that they did the damage themselves.

On the original web page, which was made public by the criminals, the photo of the fat guy holding the broken head was captioned with “[name removed] beheaded a saint! ha ha!”

The way the head broke off, I could speculate that the missionary involved probably didn’t mean to break it. He probably grabbed the statue by the chin and attempted to overturn it. That’s just my own opinion, as a fellow who has worked with concrete and granite in the past…

Incidentally, are mishies really this sedentary these days, that they could weigh this much? Most of us on mine were starved to the very edge of life itself. When I first saw the photos, I had a hard time believing they weren’t actors. Missionaries today must have it fairly easy to look like that.
 
LaMar said:
Part of what we Mormons are taught is not to forgive anyone unless they prove, through deeds, that they have made amends. It is not enough in our culture for someone to simply mouth some words and move on.

The same repentance process that is demanded of individual Mormons is a standard which I think is fair to hold my church to. This is the same church which would demand the standard repentance process from me, if I published a letter simply disagreeing with them in the local paper.

I don’t accept any statements which simply “express regret” and then go on to paint the culprits as victims, and the victims as perpetrators in some greater crime against the church. It goes against the belief in personal responsibility and humility which is a part of LDS culture which I value.
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You should forgive when someone has trespassed or crossed you. Please note that the above quote is just an opinion.
 
LaMar said:
Part of what we Mormons are taught is not to forgive anyone unless they prove, through deeds, that they have made amends. It is not enough in our culture for someone to simply mouth some words and move on.

The same repentance process that is demanded of individual Mormons is a standard which I think is fair to hold my church to. This is the same church which would demand the standard repentance process from me, if I published a letter simply disagreeing with them in the local paper.

I don’t accept any statements which simply “express regret” and then go on to paint the culprits as victims, and the victims as perpetrators in some greater crime against the church. It goes against the belief in personal responsibility and humility which is a part of LDS culture which I value.
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ashlon said:
You should forgive when someone has trespassed or crossed you. Please note that the above quote is just an opinion.
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It’s the opinion of the prophet Spencer W Kimball, and can be found as the central theme of his opus The Miracle of Forgiveness.

amazon.com/dp/0884944441

President Kimball’s biography can be read here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_W._Kimball

It is interesting to see ashlon is another Latter-Day Saint who has no problem being deceptive or “spinning” to help the church. Hopefully those reading this discussion can get a firmer grasp on the principle of dishonesty in the service of “a higher form of honesty”. This is also known as “Lying for the Lord”.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
 
Prophets can have opinions as well. I’m not trying to be deceptive. Everyone has opinions. Miracle of Forgiveness is not LDS doctrine.
 
ashlon said:
Prophets can have opinions as well. I’m not trying to be deceptive. Everyone has opinions. Miracle of Forgiveness is not LDS doctrine.
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In 50 years, gays and lesbians will be allowed to marry in the temple. At that time, the doctrines of today, and all the teachings of all the prophets on that subject will simply pass into the stage where the true believers explain them as “only opinions”.

“Gays and lesbians have always been allowed to marry in the temple!” ashlon will say, with great indignance. “Sure, our prophets had opinions, but they were speaking as men, not prophets! They aren’t perfect, they’re just humble servants of the LORD and they got things wrong! Heavenly Father is unchanging! If someone believed that gays and lesbians couldn’t be married together for eternity, then that was their problem as individuals! It has never been the church’s policy!”

Watch and see…
 
Hello, I’m not here to bash. But do not quote me on things i have not said as that would be a lie. I don’t make up ideas or concepts and tell everyone you said it.
 
ashlon said:
Hello, I’m not here to bash. But do not quote me on things i have not said as that would be a lie. I don’t make up ideas or concepts and tell everyone you said it.
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Sorry, but isn’t that the standard procedure that we use on outsiders who stumble across the brethren contradicting themselves? Adam-God, Blacks and the priesthood, etc.? These were all just “opinions”.

You and I both know well enough that The Miracle of Forgiveness is church doctrine. My bishop assigns it as required reading for people who come to him for personal problems and it’s quoted regularly on sunday mornings in my ward.

Personally, I think it’s a great book. I don’t know why we should be ashamed of it or try to minimize it. I just think the teachings in it ought to be applied uniformly, to the church as a whole as well as to individual members.
 
Personally, I think it’s a great book. I don’t know why we should be ashamed of it or try to minimize it. I just think the teachings in it ought to be applied uniformly, to the church as a whole as well as to individual members.
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Thanks for your opinion. Just cus one bishop recommends it does not make it church doctrine.
 
ashlon said:
Thanks for your opinion. Just cus one bishop recommends it does not make it church doctrine.
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Sure. And just because a prophet wrote it, and just because it’s quoted in general conference, etc. Whatever works to pacify the gentiles, eh?
 
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