Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

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Lehl said:
And were dumb enough to post photos.

chieftain.com/metro/1205046377/1

Salt Lake Tribune apparently in denial. Look at title of the article: Mormon missionaries allegedly damage Colorado Catholic shrine

sltrib.com/ci_8513613?source=rss
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Newspapers have to say “alledgedly” prior to conviction to avoid getting a case thrown out of court. If they don’t say “alledgedly” then the defense lawyer can say the newspaper prejudiced the public against their client. Several criminals have been let go on this basis.
 
This thread was also posted on the Catholic News section of this forum, where at least one practicing Mormon has expressed her deep distress and regret that representatives of her church would do anything of this sort.

And where at least one Catholic has made the very valid point that the actions of a few do NOT represent the vast majority. Become too self-righteous about an incident of this kind, and I am sure that some of the Mormon posters will come forth with examples of Catholics doing outrageous things to Mormons. I’m sure at least a few such things have happened. And such behavior would NOT be representative of Roman Catholics generally.

Assuming that in fact the desecration happened pretty much as it appears it has done, it is likely that these returned missionaries will face severe penalties from the LDS Church itself. If they are convicted of criminal vandalism, the church discipline is likely to include disfellowshipping or excommunication. Even if there is no criminal conviction, the young men will likely have Church privileges suspended: they will not be allowed to hold LDS Church offices for some period of time, will be excluded from Sacrament (Holy Communion), and may be required to surrender their temple recommends. The penalties will remain in force for several months or up to a year, and the young men may even have to be re-baptised in order to be restored to full standing within the LDS Church.

All of this is speculative, of course, but it illustrates the kinds of consequences these young men may face from the LDS Church itself. In addition to whatever legal penalties they endure. Few Roman Catholics similarly guilty of desecration of someone else’s religious artifacts would be likely to suffer such serious consequences from their local parish or diocese. They would simply confess their transgression and be consigned to saying five Hail Mary’s and five Our Fathers and counseled to do whatever the courts might direct in terms of community service.
 
I think it’s terrible. :banghead: Whoever did it, whether it’s these people or not, shame on them.
 
flameburns623 said:
This thread was also posted on the Catholic News section of this forum, where at least one practicing Mormon has expressed her deep distress and regret that representatives of her church would do anything of this sort.

And where at least one Catholic has made the very valid point that the actions of a few do NOT represent the vast majority. Become too self-righteous about an incident of this kind, and I am sure that some of the Mormon posters will come forth with examples of Catholics doing outrageous things to Mormons. I’m sure at least a few such things have happened. And such behavior would NOT be representative of Roman Catholics generally.

Assuming that in fact the desecration happened pretty much as it appears it has done, it is likely that these returned missionaries will face severe penalties from the LDS Church itself. If they are convicted of criminal vandalism, the church discipline is likely to include disfellowshipping or excommunication. Even if there is no criminal conviction, the young men will likely have Church privileges suspended: they will not be allowed to hold LDS Church offices for some period of time, will be excluded from Sacrament (Holy Communion), and may be required to surrender their temple recommends. The penalties will remain in force for several months or up to a year, and the young men may even have to be re-baptised in order to be restored to full standing within the LDS Church.

All of this is speculative, of course, but it illustrates the kinds of consequences these young men may face from the LDS Church itself. In addition to whatever legal penalties they endure. Few Roman Catholics similarly guilty of desecration of someone else’s religious artifacts would be likely to suffer such serious consequences from their local parish or diocese. They would simply confess their transgression and be consigned to saying five Hail Mary’s and five Our Fathers and counseled to do whatever the courts might direct in terms of community service.
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I doubt very much that these young men are facing any such actions. most likely they will be sent home early from their missions. I was pretty much i agreement with you until you decided to claim that the LDS church would really throw the book at them and that Catholics who commit serious sins just say a few prayers and move on. I think that smacks of mocking the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
majick275 said:
I doubt very much that these young men are facing any such actions. most likely they will be sent home early from their missions. I was pretty much i agreement with you until you decided to claim that the LDS church would really throw the book at them and that Catholics who commit serious sins just say a few prayers and move on. I think that smacks of mocking the sacrament of reconciliation.
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The missionaries have already long since returned home. The LDS church spokesperson indicates there will be some sort of penalties though of course the details could not be discussed publicly. If civil or criminal remedies are pursued and the young men are convicted, I can guarantee that the upshot will be some sort of disfellowshipment or excommunication: this is pro forma within the LDS Church. You cannot remain an LDS church member in good standing if you are convicted of any sort of serious crime (anything more serious than a traffic violation, basically). If a person is imprisoned for a crime, they are excommunicated, automatically, and must be re-baptised once they are released from prison. LDS missionaries who misbehave on their mission are frequently dealt with quite sternly for their miscreance.

Perhaps my comments were a bit disrespectful to Catholics; my deepest apologies. At least Catholics could reasonably expect SOME SORT of repercussions from their Church. In many Protestant churches, any consequences would likely come exclusively from civil authority, though some of the stricter Evangelical or fundamentalist churches might take stronger measures. With all due respect to Roman Catholics however: even a convicted murderer about to be executed for his or her crime will be absolved of the sin of their act if only they make a good and valid confession. (Granted, the murderer would, upon execution, face a burdensome future in Purgatory, unless they managed to achieve a state of perfect contrition for their sin).

My comments–again, with no disrespect intended–were meant to contrast the degree to which LDS church-members can expect rather stern consequences from their church. I don’t think it is usually or customary for modern Roman Catholics to have penances imposed upon them that are anything like the penalties the LDS may expect. What the young men in this case will endure is difficult to say, and we may never be privy. But I have personally known of LDS who were penalized quite the way I have described, for miscreance that was much less serious and certainly much less public than what these young men have done.
 
Some young men are immature and these were immature young men. Also, life is a learning experience and these young men will now learn a valuable lesson. As those parents who have children in this age group know full well, the idiot behavior as shown in the photos are rather common, in the sense that the behavior was not well thought out.
 
why_me said:
Some young men are immature and these were immature young men. Also, life is a learning experience and these young men will now learn a valuable lesson. As those parents who have children in this age group know full well, the idiot behavior as shown in the photos are rather common, in the sense that the behavior was not well thought out.
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why me,

I raised four children who are all adults now. None of them ever did anything like that, nor would it ever enter their minds. Mormons are raised with a mocking and derisive attitude towards all things Catholic. It is hardly surprising that Mormon anti-Catholic indoctrination produces such results.

Paul
 
flameburns623 said:
The missionaries have already long since returned home. The LDS church spokesperson indicates there will be some sort of penalties though of course the details could not be discussed publicly. If civil or criminal remedies are pursued and the young men are convicted, I can guarantee that the upshot will be some sort of disfellowshipment or excommunication: this is pro forma within the LDS Church. You cannot remain an LDS church member in good standing if you are convicted of any sort of serious crime (anything more serious than a traffic violation, basically). If a person is imprisoned for a crime, they are excommunicated, automatically, and must be re-baptised once they are released from prison. LDS missionaries who misbehave on their mission are frequently dealt with quite sternly for their miscreance.

Perhaps my comments were a bit disrespectful to Catholics; my deepest apologies. At least Catholics could reasonably expect SOME SORT of repercussions from their Church. In many Protestant churches, any consequences would likely come exclusively from civil authority, though some of the stricter Evangelical or fundamentalist churches might take stronger measures. With all due respect to Roman Catholics however: even a convicted murderer about to be executed for his or her crime will be absolved of the sin of their act if only they make a good and valid confession. (Granted, the murderer would, upon execution, face a burdensome future in Purgatory, unless they managed to achieve a state of perfect contrition for their sin).

My comments–again, with no disrespect intended–were meant to contrast the degree to which LDS church-members can expect rather stern consequences from their church. I don’t think it is usually or customary for modern Roman Catholics to have penances imposed upon them that are anything like the penalties the LDS may expect. What the young men in this case will endure is difficult to say, and we may never be privy. But I have personally known of LDS who were penalized quite the way I have described, for miscreance that was much less serious and certainly much less public than what these young men have done.
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I still disagree with you on LDS discipline. they too have become less strict in modern times and there is no “pro forma” requirement. the CHI gives local leaders quite a bit of leeway to handle things.they don’t want to lose members after all. it is very common nowadays to impose “probation” since that requires quite a lot of participation on the part of the penitent (attendance, tithes, regular interviews, etc.) I would bet there is NO chance anyone is going to jail here. any right minded judge would most likely impose restitution (if required by the church) and either a nominal fine or short stint of community service. I think most Catholics who thought about it calmly would be satisfied with that. I certainly would. I know of plenty of young LDS who were convicted of crimes, received probation and never lost their membership. I also think they will find many a sympathetic ear when they return home ranging from “boys will be boys” to the “whore of babylon” sentiments. in no time they will be right back in the thick of callings. after all who better to plug into those hard to fill asst. cubmaster/scoutmaster, webelos leader, older kids primary teacher slots?
 
PaulDupre said:
why me,

I raised four children who are all adults now. None of them ever did anything like that, nor would it ever enter their minds. Mormons are raised with a mocking and derisive attitude towards all things Catholic. It is hardly surprising that Mormon anti-Catholic indoctrination produces such results.

Paul
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I never said that all do such stupid things but it does happen within that age group. I remember watching Dr. Phil about spring break and just what antics such an age group does. He was refering to Girls Gone Wild where young women are giving free drinks at a bar and then they do stupid things in front of a video camera while under the influence. Plus, young men stone drunk acting out their insecurities. I can give more examples of behavior of such an age group.

They can be immature and act without thinking.
 
They’re just kids being stupid, it’s disrespectful and criminal but again not particularly unbelievable behavior from 18 year old boys. I’ve never trashed Churches but I’ve done some stupid stuff in my day. If they destroyed any property they should have to pay for it and face whatever misdemeanor charges are appropriate.

This is no more a reflection of the Mormon Church as whole than Priests molesting children is a reflection of the Catholic Church as a whole. People are really stretching to make that link in this thread.
 
flameburns623 said:
My comments–again, with no disrespect intended–were meant to contrast the degree to which LDS church-members can expect rather stern consequences from their church. I don’t think it is usually or customary for modern Roman Catholics to have penances imposed upon them that are anything like the penalties the LDS may expect. What the young men in this case will endure is difficult to say, and we may never be privy. But I have personally known of LDS who were penalized quite the way I have described, for miscreance that was much less serious and certainly much less public than what these young men have done.
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Yes, this is defining point of the two religions. Mormons withhold graces that we need and were given to us by God. These graces give us what we need in order to live Christ-like lives. Withholding graces from God, when a person needs them the most, is one of the more messed up ideas in mormonism, IMHO.

From a Catholic perspective, these men desecrated what is held to be Holy. Something that has great meaning to our faith. We forgive them. Yet, it is also prudent that they be held to the law of the land, which defines what they have done (if proven guilty of course) as a criminal act.
 
why_me said:
Some young men are immature and these were immature young men. Also, life is a learning experience and these young men will now learn a valuable lesson. As those parents who have children in this age group know full well, the idiot behavior as shown in the photos are rather common, in the sense that the behavior was not well thought out.
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First, I do not think that these men represent the actions that nearly any Mormon would publicly support.

Likewise, it would be absolutely wrong for a Catholic to desecrate a Mormon shrine.

But I would say that apologizing or giving a pass to these men would be wrong. If they were black gang-bangers, people would demand that they be strung up. If they had done this to a Jewish synagogue, this would have been national news with people screaming for life in prison without parole. But no, they and nice, white polite Mormon young men who had a momentary lapse of judgment. Riiiiiiiight.

Get a grip people. Their intent was evil. They should face the full penalty of their CRIME. Their race and religion may have motivated it, but that should have nothing to do with their just prosecution.
 
why_me said:
The topic is being discussed on mormonapologetics:

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=33704
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so i noticed that over there you never once gave a catholic perspective or “defended the catholic church” against lies, slander, etc. that discussion seems to be full of anti-catholic bigotry, particularly focused on pedophile priests, and lots of excuse making for the incident, marginalizing it as something no one should care about and an excuse to start preaching about how persecuted mormons are.

so why do you keep trying threadswarm? you post over there for them to come here and here to go over there. do you enjoy throwing gas on fires?
 
I have almost always been a devout Catholic, and for the last 9 years I have lived in and around Salt Lake City. I was shocked when I moved here because none of the other kids my age (This was 7th grade) would even talk to me. I later found out that they were Mormon and their parents told them Catholics have horns and they are not supposed to talk to them.

So I agree with the earlier statement, Mormons (in Utah, at least) seem to be raised with some sort of hatred for Catholics. My first reaction to reading about what these three did was that they should be thrown in jail, or that Catholics should go mock the Mormon faith at Temple Square. But that’s not really Christian, is it? It seems like our first reaction to adversity is to get angry, and seek revenge. But I stopped and thought about what was going through my head. Yes they should be charged for damages, or rather, they should volunteer to help in some way to restore or repay the parish. However, I think the embarrassment of having their faces shown on TV performing such sacrilege is punishment enough.
 
Meinrad said:
I have almost always been a devout Catholic, and for the last 9 years I have lived in and around Salt Lake City. I was shocked when I moved here because none of the other kids my age (This was 7th grade) would even talk to me. I later found out that they were Mormon and their parents told them Catholics have horns and they are not supposed to talk to them.
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Forgive me but I got a small chuckle from this part of the post; that is exactly what I heard Catholics tell their kids; that Mormons have horns and they should not talk to them…:o I am sorry that you had this experience with Mormons; we are not all like that:)

Annie
 
Annie_B said:
Forgive me but I got a small chuckle from this part of the post; that is exactly what I heard Catholics tell their kids; that Mormons have horns and they should not talk to them…:o I am sorry that you had this experience with Mormons; we are not all like that:)

Annie
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I have heard that said of all religions. Why would people actually think anyone has horns because they are of a different faith? The thing that upsets me the most was that my idea that we all believe in Christ, and we should celebrate our common idea is not shared by any Mormon I have ever met.

Also, every time I talk about how rude someone who is Mormon was to me, or how they mistreated me, etc… every other Mormon who hears that says the same thing. Not to put you down or anything, just an observation.
 
Meinrad said:
I have heard that said of all religions. Why would people actually think anyone has horns because they are of a different faith? The thing that upsets me the most was that my idea that we all believe in Christ, and we should celebrate our common idea is not shared by any Mormon I have ever met.

Also, every time I talk about how rude someone who is Mormon was to me, or how they mistreated me, etc… every other Mormon who hears that says the same thing. Not to put you down or anything, just an observation.
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That is just falsehood. Mormons don’t believe nor behave like that. If there are exceptions, they would have to be extremely rare.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
That is just falsehood.** Mormons don’t believe nor behave like that**. If there are exceptions, they would have to be extremely rare.

zerinus
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You realize youre posting the above in a topic about mormon missionaries vandalizing a Catholic shrine right?
 
I tried to make the distinction between Mormons everywhere else I’ve been and Mormons here in Utah. But I stand by my statement. The only time Mormons were nice to me was when they thought I was a “member.”
 
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