Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[PaulDupre]

I am sure that catholics have also acted foolishly. Since you never heard a sermon denigrating any other religion from a priest, what do you have to say to catholic answers for saying that mormonism is a threat and then denigrating it?

Catholic Answers is not an official organ of the Catholic Church. It is a private apostolate and responsible for its own pronouncements.

That being said, I agree with the infamous email that called Mormonism a threat. It is a threat to any vulnerable person who does not know his religion, because the Mormons practice deception in order to gain new converts.

I know. I was one of them.

Paul

 

[ibkc]

Do you consider the JW’s christian?

Seeing as how they deny the divinity of Christ, no, I do not consider the JWs to be Christian, either. I do give them credit for not hiding their beliefs the way the LDS does.

Do you consider the SDA’s chrisitan? Do you consider the Church of Christ, Science christian? Probably not.

The SDAs do not deny the divinity of Christ or the Trinity, so yes, they are Christian.

I have no opinion of the Christian Scientists; I don’t know enough about them.

 

[lurdes]

I never said that all do such stupid things but it does happen within that age group. I remember watching Dr. Phil about spring break and just what antics such an age group does. He was refering to Girls Gone Wild where young women are giving free drinks at a bar and then they do stupid things in front of a video camera while under the influence. Plus, young men stone drunk acting out their insecurities. I can give more examples of behavior of such an age group.

They can be immature and act without thinking.

this is different this young man were not drinking! they were under the influence of the LDS anti-Catholic teaching.

 

[majick275]

LOL. the comparison of ordained “elders” sent out as missionaries called by the first presidency of the LDS church allegedly through divine revelation to drunken spring break hooligans on pornographic videos is ludicrous. for a mormon to be the one drawing that comparison is astounding to me.

 

[zerinus]

Part of what we Mormons are taught is not to forgive anyone unless they prove, through deeds, that they have made amends. It is not enough in our culture for someone to simply mouth some words and move on.

That is not true. Mormons are taught to forgive others, even if the offender has not repented, or asked fro forgiveness, or “made amends”. Lengthy sermons have been preached by the leadership of the Church to that effect. The last one I know of was given last year by President James E. Faust of the First Presidency, in the April 2007 General conference of the Church. You can read the text of it here, or watch the video of it with Windows Media Player here (or with Apple Quick Time here), or listen to the podcast of it here. Take your pick.

It’s the opinion of the prophet Spencer W Kimball, and can be found as the central theme of his opus The Miracle of Forgiveness.

amazon.com/dp/0884944441

President Kimball’s biography can be read here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_W._Kimball

It is interesting to see ashlon is another Latter-Day Saint who has no problem being deceptive or “spinning” to help the church. Hopefully those reading this discussion can get a firmer grasp on the principle of dishonesty in the service of “a higher form of honesty”. This is also known as “Lying for the Lord”.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8

That is not true either. President Kimball says no such thing. I fear you are the one who is “lying for” I am not sure whom. I noticed that you did not give any quotes. The “honest” way of quoting from someone is to give exact quotes, and the reference to it so that it can be verified.

What President Kimball does say in that book is that, in order to properly repent of any wrong we have done, it is necessary both to confess the wrong, and where possible to make amends for the wrong committed (something similar to the Catholic Penance), which is a completely different thing. But he does not say that we should not forgive someone who has wronged us, unless he does any of those things. That is a complete perversion and distortion of both what the Church teaches, as well as what President Kimball wrote in his book.

zerinus

 

[twopekinguys]

whyme has a good point about the youthfulness of these mormon missionarys. theyre’ just kids, they should be allowed some forgiving leeway.

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree very strongly with this statement. These individuals are old enough to vote(major responsibility), serve in the military(huge responsibility), represent their faith on a worldwide basis(responsibilty not taken seriously), and they should be given “leeway”? I don’t think so.

The moment they left their place of residence, wearing their nametag identifying them as representatives of the Mormon faith, all bets are off.

 

[xulu]

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree very strongly with this statement. These individuals are old enough to vote(major responsibility), serve in the military(huge responsibility), represent their faith on a worldwide basis(responsibilty not taken seriously), and they should be given “leeway”? I don’t think so.

The moment they left their place of residence, wearing their nametag identifying them as representatives of the Mormon faith, all bets are off.

Having been a missionary myself, I can say you are correct. All bets are off. We were held to a higher standard. Most live up to it.
It would be just like a diplomat for the US government disrespecting the country he’s in in an extreme way.
That’s what these boneheads have done.
What bothers me is that there was three of them, and not one of them had a single brain cell which said “This isn’t funny.”
It isn’t even in the same zip code as funny.

 

[xulu]

As a Catholic, I am much less concerned with the physical vandalism (breaking heads off saint statues) than I am with the mockery and desecration evident in the photos.

So get over the “allegedly”. They “allegedly damaged the shrine” SO WHAT?

But I can see their photos with MY OWN EYES THAT THEY ARE MOCKING MY CHURCH, MY BELIEFS, AND WHO I AM. I don’t NEED a court to CONVICT them of that before I can say that they did it.

Or SUE ME already.

I know the paper has to cover their behinds a bit, but I said " ‘alleged’ my !!" I told my daughter that the Catholics would not stoop to this level and desecrate anything from another church, because most I have known have been respectful of me.
I have also read there may have been some illegal entry involved with these 3 ? I think that was a possible charge that could be filed.
I honestly do not know much here, but would a shrine like this be locked, or attended to from time to time, or is it open for any who wish to come?
Forgive me of my lack of knowledge, My parents are curious, and also furious that this happened.

 

[twopekinguys]

I know the paper has to cover their behinds a bit, but I said " ‘alleged’ my !!" I told my daughter that the Catholics would not stoop to this level and desecrate anything from another church, because most I have known have been respectful of me.
I have also read there may have been some illegal entry involved with these 3 ? I think that was a possible charge that could be filed.
I honestly do not know much here, but would a shrine like this be locked, or attended to from time to time, or is it open for any who wish to come?
Forgive me of my lack of knowledge, My parents are curious, and also furious that this happened.

The security of a Shrine can vary from Shrine to Shrine. I know of some that are open 24 hrs a day, while others have only certain hours when they are open to the public. Many, if not all have some sort of personel roaming the premises, but just like anything else, they can’t be everywhere all the time.

While all take measures to safeguard them, they also try to have the personnel in the background as much as possible, so people can experience the solemnity of the Shrine, and to provide a peaceful place for prayer and reflection.

For me personally, the broken statue is upsetting, but not the biggest act of desecration at the shrine. The statue, “is not” the saint, but merely a reminder of the saint, and what he stood for. Statues in our churches and shrines, have been blessed by a priest or bishop. A blesssed item is to be treated with a certain amount of respect above and beyond ordinary items.

The altar on the other hand is another story. This is one of the places that all Catholics consider the most holy and sacred. From what I understand there was a picture (which was removed first) that showed these missionaries performing a mock sacrifice. Many altars contain what is called an “altar stone”. These stones contain a bone fragment of someone who has been declared a saint by the Catholic church. I have seen our parish priest practically have a stroke because someone set something on the altar that didn’t belong there.

The actions of these individuals shows either they had no idea what they were doing was this bad, or they knew it was bad and didn’t care.

 

[xulu]

The altar on the other hand is another story. This is one of the places that all Catholics consider the most holy and sacred. From what I understand there was a picture (which was removed first) that showed these missionaries performing a mock sacrifice. Many altars contain what is called an “altar stone”. These stones contain a bone fragment of someone who has been declared a saint by the Catholic church. I have seen our parish priest practically have a stroke because someone set something on the altar that didn’t belong there.

The actions of these individuals shows either they had no idea what they were doing was this bad, or they knew it was bad and didn’t care.

Oh my
Knowing more about this breaks my heart about what these idiots did.
I knew the altar was significant, and I about had a fit when I heard of the mock sacrifice.
Thanks for the information.

 

[why_me]

Having been a missionary myself, I can say you are correct. All bets are off. We were held to a higher standard. Most live up to it.
It would be just like a diplomat for the US government disrespecting the country he’s in in an extreme way.
That’s what these boneheads have done.
What bothers me is that there was three of them, and not one of them had a single brain cell which said “This isn’t funny.”
It isn’t even in the same zip code as funny.

Glad to know that you lived a perfect life as a missionary. Unfortunately I have never met a perfect missionary. Sorry that we didn’t meet. It would have been nice to meet one.

 

[why_me]

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree very strongly with this statement. These individuals are old enough to vote(major responsibility), serve in the military(huge responsibility), represent their faith on a worldwide basis(responsibilty not taken seriously), and they should be given “leeway”? I don’t think so.

The moment they left their place of residence, wearing their nametag identifying them as representatives of the Mormon faith, all bets are off.

Are catholic priests perfect? Have catholic priests ever made a mistake? And so, if I see a priest living an imperfection should I also claim all bets are off? As one nun explained to me: people should see nuns and priests as human beings too.

I certainly do not want to discuss the imperfections of certain priests.

 

[why_me]

It would depend, for instance, on whether those persons believed in the Trinity, or not. It’s not our job to single out individuals and make statements as to whether they will be saved, or not. That’s God’s domain alone. It is our duty as Christians, however, to courteously point out the errors of other religious traditions–from LDS to Jehova Witness. As far as I’m concerned, Seventh Day Adventists may belong in a different category altogether, but I only have studied their theology in a couple areas–e.g. Sabbath concerns and their idea of the “wiping-out” or utter elimination of the damned souls.

It would actually depend on whether or not they are living christ centered lives and obeying the commandments to the best of their ability. If all it takes to be a christian is to believe in the trinity, well, that would be easy indeed.

 

[twopekinguys]

Are catholic priests perfect? Have catholic priests ever made a mistake? And so, if I see a priest living an imperfection should I also claim all bets are off? As one nun explained to me: people should see nuns and priests as human beings too.

I certainly do not want to discuss the imperfections of certain priests.

No one ever said a priest, or ANY member of the clergy is perfect. As usual, you are trying to divert attention from what this thread is about.

If a priest, nun, rabbi, or pastor is acting in an official role, such as wearing their collar, yamulke, or nametag identifying them in an official capacity, there should be no leniancy in the punishment for desecrating another faiths shrine, or anything that faith holds as sacred.

Had these nitwits done the same thing, without being able to be identified as members of the LDS faith, then all of this hull a baloo wouldn’t be happening. It probably would have been written off as simple stupidity. But, since they were identifiable as members of LDS, that puts it into another category.

Quit trying to turn this discussion into something that it isn’t. In case there is some sort of confusion on your part, this thread is about LDS missionaries acting in an offical capacity of that church desecrating a holy shrine. PERIOD!!!

 

[xulu]

Glad to know that you lived a perfect life as a missionary. Unfortunately I have never met a perfect missionary. Sorry that we didn’t meet. It would have been nice to meet one.

I don’t quite recall anything in my words indicating I felt I was perfect, but I know darn well that I never disrespected another faith. I know if I ever have a chance to visit a Catholic Mass I would make an effort to learn what I should or should not do.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t quite recall anything in my words indicating I felt I was perfect, but I know darn well that I never disrespected another faith. I know if I ever have a chance to visit a Catholic Mass I would make an effort to learn what I should or should not do.

Excellent response Xulu. I am the same way. I often attend worship services with friends of other faiths. While I may not understand, or agree with their theology, the last thing I want to do is offend them in their worship space.

When I am attending a worship service of another faith for the first time, I ALWAYS ask what is expected of me, as a visitor. Dress codes, are there things I should do, shouldn’t do, places I should be, shouldn’t be, etc.

Most faiths, if not all, are very welcoming of visitors, and are more than willing to answer these types of questions.

Which is the way it should be.

 

[xulu]

Excellent response Xulu. I am the same way. I often attend worship services with friends of other faiths. While I may not understand, or agree with their theology, the last thing I want to do is offend them in their worship space.

Thank you for the compliment.
The other thing is when asking questions people should choose their words carefully, and be reverent when doing so.

 

[PaulDupre]

Glad to know that you lived a perfect life as a missionary. Unfortunately I have never met a perfect missionary. Sorry that we didn’t meet. It would have been nice to meet one.

There you go again, obfuscating like a true Mormon. No missionary is perfect, but there is a great gulf between normal human imperfection and outright cruelty. What these jerks did was just plain cruel an motivated by arrogance, pride and a haughty disdain for the local “apostate religion”. They learned that somewhere. Where do you think they learned it?

Paul

 

[zaffiroborant]

whyme has a good point about the youthfulness of these mormon missionarys. theyre’ just kids, they should be allowed some forgiving leeway.

I don’t see why kids who require leeway should be taken seriously when they knock on my door to proselytize.

 

[xulu]

There you go again, obfuscating like a true Mormon. No missionary is perfect, but there is a great gulf between normal human imperfection and outright cruelty. What these jerks did was just plain cruel an motivated by arrogance, pride and a haughty disdain for the local “apostate religion”. They learned that somewhere. Where do you think they learned it?

Paul

Hi, Paul
I agree about the “Great Gulf” you speak of.
An imperfection would be stumbling over your words or feet, or accidentally breaking something.
Cruelty is an intended action, which is what these twits did on the altar, then photographed it, then posted it on the internet.

I’ve said it before, I have “personally” never heard any disrespect spoken in any church doctrine, however I know there are those extremists, as there are in any religion, who say different things in the home.
IMHO- it’s the home where some of this foolishness is brought about.
I have a family member through a sibling marriage who came from a Mormon family- the son wasn’t even allowed to go on a mission, that’s how dysfunctional they are.
On another subject- Paul, you and I share the same birthday
So, a belated happy birthday