Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[RC_Matt]

I don’t quite recall anything in my words indicating I felt I was perfect, but I know darn well that I never disrespected another faith. I know if I ever have a chance to visit a Catholic Mass I would make an effort to learn what I should or should not do.

Glad you mentioned that, this incessant whining about the poor missionaries just being kids is as brainless as it is absurd. Making lame excuses for the behavior only co-opts it and adds more fuel to the fire. I don’t know about you guys, but the thought to desecrate somebody else’s place of worship would never have even OCURRED to me when I was 19, or 17, or 15, or 12, or even 7 years old. You know why? Because my parents and the Church taught me appropriate behavior and manners; and particularly instilled in me absolute respect for all religious faiths and their places of worship. Don’t try to feed me this garbage about “silly kids.” These 19 year-old “kids” were obviously taught an entirely different set of tenets regarding other faiths by their parents and by their church. In fact, they were so arrogant and proud of their actions that they photographed themselves, in full missionary regalia no less, and then posted the photos on the net for all to admire. They obviously saw absolutely nothing wrong with their actions, in fact found them laudable! These guys are like many Mormons I knew growing-up, absolute contempt towards other faiths; and particular scorn for Catholics.

I find it interesting that some people on the Mormon boards only criticize them for getting caught, i.e., posting the pictures on the net; or for giving the church bad PR.

I am well aware of that fact that not all Mormons think this way, and that most missionaries would have better common sense than to do something like that, however any Catholic who has spent any length of time around Mormons knows that this derisive attitude is by no means uncommon. I don’t blame the “kids” for this, in fact I sincerely hope they are not prosecuted, they simply acted-out on what they had learned from their parents and the sponsoring institution; and therein lies the problem. It’s not so much an issue of what they did as it is an issue of WHY they did it. For the sake of those “kids” and those that will follow, I hope the Mormon “intelligentsia” is astute enough to figure this one out; assuming they are capable of sincerely recognizing a problem here, beyond just bad PR.

 

[xulu]

Glad you mentioned that, this incessant whining about the poor missionaries just being kids is as brainless as it is absurd. Making lame excuses for the behavior only co-opts it and adds more fuel to the fire. I don’t know about you guys, but the thought to desecrate somebody else’s place of worship would never have even OCURRED to me when I was 19, or 17, or 15, or 12, or even 7 years old. You know why? Because my parents and the Church taught me appropriate behavior and manners; and particularly instilled in me absolute respect for all religious faiths and their places of worship. Don’t try to feed me this garbage about “silly kids.” These 19 year-old “kids” were obviously taught an entirely different set of tenets regarding other faiths by their parents and by their church. In fact, they were so arrogant and proud of their actions that they photographed themselves, in full missionary regalia no less, and then posted the photos on the net for all to admire. They obviously saw absolutely nothing wrong with their actions, in fact found them laudable! These guys are like many Mormons I knew growing-up, absolute contempt towards other faiths; and particular scorn for Catholics.

I find it interesting that some people on the Mormon boards only criticize them for getting caught, i.e., posting the pictures on the net; or for giving the church bad PR.

I am well aware of that fact that not all Mormons think this way, and that most missionaries would have better common sense than to do something like that, however any Catholic who has spent any length of time around Mormons knows that this derisive attitude is by no means uncommon. I don’t blame the “kids” for this, in fact I sincerely hope they are not prosecuted, they simply acted-out on what they had learned from their parents and the sponsoring institution; and therein lies the problem. It’s not so much an issue of what they did as it is an issue of WHY they did it. For the sake of those “kids” and those that will follow, I hope the Mormon “intelligentsia” is astute enough to figure this one out; assuming they are capable of sincerely recognizing a problem here, beyond just bad PR.

Even among Mormons, we seem to notice a difference between “Utah Mormons” and those who have no Utah influence in their family.
Most seem to have a self righteous streak.
I don’t like visiting Utah for this reason.
As a missionary, I noticed the difference between a missionary companion from Utah and one from another state.
They definitely seemed more nasty to me for some reason.

 

[LaMar]

Even among Mormons, we seem to notice a difference between “Utah Mormons” and those who have no Utah influence in their family.
Most seem to have a self righteous streak.
I don’t like visiting Utah for this reason.
As a missionary, I noticed the difference between a missionary companion from Utah and one from another state.
They definitely seemed more nasty to me for some reason.

What’s a nice Mo’ boy like you doing in Fallon NV? You from Mesquite, or is it Twin Falls?

I grew up in St. George. Thanks in advance for the condolences.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi, Paul
I agree about the “Great Gulf” you speak of.
An imperfection would be stumbling over your words or feet, or accidentally breaking something.
Cruelty is an intended action, which is what these twits did on the altar, then photographed it, then posted it on the internet.

I’ve said it before, I have “personally” never heard any disrespect spoken in any church doctrine, however I know there are those extremists, as there are in any religion, who say different things in the home.
IMHO- it’s the home where some of this foolishness is brought about.
I have a family member through a sibling marriage who came from a Mormon family- the son wasn’t even allowed to go on a mission, that’s how dysfunctional they are.
On another subject- Paul, you and I share the same birthday
So, a belated happy birthday

The same to my friend,
Paul

 

[xulu]

What’s a nice Mo’ boy like you doing in Fallon NV? You from Mesquite, or is it Twin Falls?

I grew up in St. George. Thanks in advance for the condolences.

Actually, I was born in Texas, My dad was in the military so we bounced around quite a bit.
Mesquite is closer to LV, Twin Falls is in Idaho, I’m an hour from Reno.

 

[why_me]

There you go again, obfuscating like a true Mormon. No missionary is perfect, but there is a great gulf between normal human imperfection and outright cruelty. What these jerks did was just plain cruel an motivated by arrogance, pride and a haughty disdain for the local “apostate religion”. They learned that somewhere. Where do you think they learned it?

Paul

What did christ say? Let him or her without sin cast the first stone. True is this case as well. These missionaries made a mistake. What to do? Of course we can have them flogged in public or burn them at the stake as heathens but…such times are from a bygone age. At the moment there was an apology, church discipline will occur, and the law will also come into the picture.

Also, the young men in question will need to be forgiven. What more is there to say?

 

[why_me]

I don’t quite recall anything in my words indicating I felt I was perfect, but I know darn well that I never disrespected another faith. I know if I ever have a chance to visit a Catholic Mass I would make an effort to learn what I should or should not do.

The missionaries made a mistake. What should happen now? flogging? horsewhipping? What would you like them to do and what would you now like to happen to them? Go back to the punishment of the Middle Ages?

 

[RC_Matt]

The missionaries made a mistake. What should happen now? flogging? horsewhipping? What would you like them to do and what would you now like to happen to them? Go back to the punishment of the Middle Ages?

No, of course not, and those kind of statements are pointless, obtuse and reflect poor reasoning.

It’s kind of ironic that the place they chose to debase and desecrate, The Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs, was established in memory of Catholics who were severely persecuted (i.e., murdered) for practicing their faith. This was so significant to the 450 families of that small Parish, Sangre de Cristo, which means “The Blood of Christ,” that they raised the funds themselves to establish the shrine. I can fully understand why they feel violated, particularly when these guys came into the community, as officially recognized LDS representatives, to blatantly attempt to convert everybody to “the one true church.” I guess you just don’t get it, we don’t need this kind of stuff and we don’t like this kind of stuff; the actions of these missionaries only added injury to insult.

Of course they are forgiven, Catholics are Christians and it is thus incumbent upon us to forgive those who “trespass against us.” Bishop Arthur Tafoya, of the local Pueblo diocese, put it pretty well:

“I ask that we as Catholics, who believe in the forgiveness of Christ, will ourselves forgive, and pray for the young men who showed such a lack of tolerance and understanding. I especially ask the members of the San Luis community to help the healing process by removing any anger that exists in their hearts. This is the time that we can show our love of Christ by forgiving and loving our neighbors.”

We, of course, forgive the “kids,” it’s not their fault that they were raised and taught to think that this sort of behavior towards others is acceptable and proper within their ecclesiastical confines. The burden for corrective action lies within the teachings of the organization itself. They’ve superficially apologized and paid some lip service, but the nature of the beast remains the same. Sincere repentance can only come from changing that nature.

 

[majick275]

i must have missed something;. WHEN did these three young men apologize? I have seen ONE o them make statement in which he said he should have known better because of the persecution faced by mormons. Nothing from the other two.

when you do your examination of conscience since you seem to be so big on it please remember the part where you ask yourself if you have defended your faith in the presence of others. then you can ask if you have worshiped false gods. next ask if you have given scandal. we could go on but you get teh point. the only the thing we have consistently asked for from these young men is a sincere apology FROM THEM and IF required restitution. From the LDS we ask that this NOT be turned into a pity party by THEM askinf for reparations for their perceived persecutions. (mostly from their own angry members or nowadays from evangelicals)

 

[RC_Matt]

Even among Mormons, we seem to notice a difference between “Utah Mormons” and those who have no Utah influence in their family.
Most seem to have a self righteous streak.
I don’t like visiting Utah for this reason.
As a missionary, I noticed the difference between a missionary companion from Utah and one from another state.
They definitely seemed more nasty to me for some reason.

These dudes weren’t even Utah Mormons, they came from Calif., Idaho and Nevada.

 

[why_me]

We, of course, forgive the “kids,” it’s not their fault that they were raised and taught to think that this sort of behavior towards others is acceptable and proper within their ecclesiastical confines. The burden for corrective action lies within the teachings of the organization itself. They’ve superficially apologized and paid some lip service, but the nature of the beast remains the same. Sincere repentance can only come from changing that nature.

Thanks for your judgemental post. Now you are blaming parents and their church for their behavior. I will keep that in mind when I see rowdy catholics causing trouble with drugs and alcohol. I will blame parents and their church.

 

[LaMar]

These dudes weren’t even Utah Mormons, they came from Calif., Idaho and Nevada.

Historical Deseret stretches in a band through Idaho, Utah and Arizona, includes most of Nevada and Wyoming, and includes enclaves in Alberta and Chihuahua, Mexico.

 

[RC_Matt]

Thanks for your judgemental post. Now you are blaming parents and their church for their behavior. I will keep that in mind when I see rowdy catholics causing trouble with drugs and alcohol. I will blame parents and their church.

Yes, you can blame the parents if they did not teach thier children that excessive drinking and drugs are wrong, or if they subsidize or encourage that type of behavior. Catholics, however, do not learn to drink and take drugs in church, nor do any Church teachings or attitudes foster that behavior.

 

[LaMar]

Actually, I was born in Texas, My dad was in the military so we bounced around quite a bit.
Mesquite is closer to LV, Twin Falls is in Idaho, I’m an hour from Reno.

Mesquite is right across the canyon from my hometown.

Twin Falls, ID has some satellite communities across the border (Jackpot).

Most of the Nevada Mormons I knew as a kid came from one of those two general areas.

Believe it or not, I know exactly where Fallon NV is. We used to go to Lake Tahoe a lot on vacations. We’d make side trips around (Virginia City was a cool place in the 1980s, because of a television show called Bonanza) that part of Nevada/California.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thanks for your judgemental post. Now you are blaming parents and their church for their behavior. I will keep that in mind when I see rowdy catholics causing trouble with drugs and alcohol. I will blame parents and their church.

How many times do we have to say this? These missionaries were in official LDS “uniform”, which means they were representing their church at the time. This would give some indication that they got their views from the LDS, or from their families.

If you see a Roman Catholic in their collar or habit doing these things, or otherwise acting inappropriately, by all means, point it out. I doubt if you can tell a “rowdy Catholic” by what he wears other than someone in their collar or habit.

Again, try to stick with the topic. As usual you are trying to turn this into something it isn’t. Unfortunately, I have seen alot of your posts on here, and other threads, It seems you really don’t have anything constructive to offer, but rather just stir things up a bit more.

Specifically another thread where you question how a young LDS member’s Bible could get dusty from lack of use, then tell him to check out the RCIA of the Catholic Church. Just in case you forgot which side you’re on now, here is a link. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=227074&page=2

Please do us all a favor, and decide which side of the fence you would like to be on.

 

[RC_Matt]

Historical Deseret stretches in a band through Idaho, Utah and Arizona, includes most of Nevada and Wyoming, and includes enclaves in Alberta and Chihuahua, Mexico.

LOL, thanks for the info.; I never would have thought of Nevada, “land of 10,000 vices,” as being part of the Mormon heartland.

 

[LaMar]

LOL, thanks for the info.; I never would have thought of Nevada, “land of 10,000 vices,” as being part of the Mormon heartland.

Heh. Mormons have always run rackets. Vices are for others, but we like to make money off them. (LOL!)

I grew up in a little Utah community that was close enough for a daily commute to Las Vegas. The stories I could tell you…

 

[Tig]

Just my opinion, altho there is a type of contempt for Catholicism by LDS (and others), which might have or not contributed to these brain challenged young adults (not kids) doing what they did, I don’t believe they were taught to do so. I believe they thought it was cool, funny to them and lets show others what we did. No thought for those they were abuseing or care for them but only contemptible laughter. The shades of those in Nazism (which we have still among us) or the KKK or other idiotic groups. The LDS at fault? They represented, unfortunitly, the Mormon Church. What liability, if any is there’s, I don’t know. The bad rep. will do their Church no good. But full legal liability and any costs etc belong to those sick-o young men. Hopefully enough punishment will be handed down that they will get the idea that there is no OK for any desecration etc. for doing what they did to anyone’s church, temple, synagogue, etc will be allowed.

Tis Holy Saturday with tomorrow being Easter. I wish you all God’s blessings.

 

[twopekinguys]

i must have missed something;. WHEN did these three young men apologize? I have seen ONE o them make statement in which he said he should have known better because of the persecution faced by mormons. Nothing from the other two.

Actually, I have seen two apoligies. Both were posted in the Salt Lake paper (sorry I don’t have the link handy). The first one I though was half hearted at best. It did contain some apologetic language, but also became a little self serving by talking about how the Mormon’s have been persecuted. The other apology I saw appeared to be a little more heart-felt. I haven’t seen anything from the third one. (I guess he’s not sure if he’s sorry or not, at this point.)

Changing the topic just a little bit, I did find an article on the Salt Lake Tribune site that states “Forgiving Catholics ask that LDS missionaries not be charged in shrine incident”. Here is a link to the article: sltrib.com/ci_8651729

 

[xulu]

They’ve superficially apologized and paid some lip service, but the nature of the beast remains the same. Sincere repentance can only come from changing that nature.

I have seen a range of reactions from “Forgive and Forget” to “Throw The Book” at them among people claiming to be Mormons who have posted comments on various newspaper websites.
My problem with the “forgive and forget” is the “forget” part.

If forgotten, it can happen again.
Some people take forgiveness as license to repeat the offense.

I think they should be held accountable as dictated by state and federal laws. I am no lawyer, but couldn’t this be a “hate crime”?