Mormon neighbors

[GKMotley]

Wow. You have some tough door-knockers in your neighborhood.

When such folk (and they are markedly more mild in my area) show up, and after I take over the conversation and move it into history, and my experiences in life, they are usually running in about 10 minutes.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Learn about Mormonism. Ask them hard questions, like

1. If American Indians came from Jews, where’s the genetic evidence?
2. Why do Mormons believe God was originally a man that became God?
3. Why do they themselves believe men can become gods?
4. Why does the Book of Mormon “translation” use the French word Adieu (which means “To God”) instead of the more common (in English at least), farewell.
5. Ask why God let his Church, which Jesus promised the “gates of Hell” would not prevail against it would go into apostasy.
6. With regards to the last one, ask why you should believe in Mormonism after all those other restorationist groups.
7. Defend your own faith, use especially the Bible, which, they believe is corrupted (as do Muslims, and be sure to point that out), so, when they point out the verses which they believe defend Mormonism, Make sure you familiarise yourself with the actually context of the verse.
8. Do all these things with charity.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t believe your proselytism was asked for.

 

[TOmNossor]

I don’t believe your proselytism was asked for.

I was answering question you said should be asked.
I would think if I told LDS on a discussion board to ask Catholics, "why do you call your priest ‘father’ when the Bible says, ‘call no man father,’ you would respond.
I was just telling you that your questions have been answered repeatedly and if you don’t know you should read about it. If you do know, it is disingenuous to use poor apologetics to undermine the faith of the less informed.
Anyway, I may be under the misimpression that providing LDS Answers is part of the Non-Catholic discussion area. Maybe this is just about what might dismantle LDS faith and/or result in more Catholics. I suppose LDS Answers would be unwelcome then.
I hope not.
Charity, TOm

 

[Lemuel]

Ask why God let his Church, which Jesus promised the “gates of Hell” would not prevail against it would go into apostasy.

I have not met a Mormon yet who can explain the “great apostasy”.

It never happened.

 

[Horton]

As Simon Southerton admitted, if Lehi’s band inserted themselves into a larger population around 600BC (as LDS leaders and LDS scholars have been saying since around 1920 long before DNA), finding DNA traces would be incredibly unlikely.

Here is more info:

I just read through this “explanation”. So the basic conclusion is those who migrated from Asia did not mix with any other populations so their DNA remains relatively undiluted resulting in the ability to show where these first Native Americans came from. However, the folks from JS book who came over mixed so much with other populations (possibly with the Asian contingent) that they are unable to be identified as from the middle East? :thinking:Nothing about that article or rationalization makes sense.

Why is it Tom that every time you try to defend the LDS thinking, you have to attempt to give evidence the Catholic Church is wrong?

If you are really interested, I think this article provides a strong answer to the question you ask:
A Mormon Theodicy: Jacob and the Problem of Evil.

This is a paragraph from the paper you linked. Do people actually believe this?

The increased sophistication of LDS scholarly apologetic is clearly seen in their approach to the Book of Mormon. Not only do they use scholarship to defend the Book against common criticisms; they are attempting to place it squarely into an ancient Near Eastern background. It is their contention that the Book of Mormon reflects the culture, language and customs of ancient Semitic peoples. This reflection is seen not only in the major story line but also in subtle and important ways which, they argue, Joseph Smith (or anyone else living in the nineteenth century) could not have extrapolated from the Bible.

 

[Lemuel]

Someone please tell me what is offensive about saying this:

"I have not met a Mormon yet who can explain the “great apostasy”.

It never happened."

I got flagged for violating the guidelines. If this is offensive speech, I definitely don’t belong here.

 

[babochka]

I haven’t known a lot of Mormons in my life, but I have had genuine friendships with those that I’ve known.

A few years back, we had some neighbors who were LDS. Our kids played together, they came over for dinner occasionally, the mom and I would go for walks together, and we kept in touch after we both moved. We first met them about 12 years ago and lived a few houses down from them for 5 years. In all the time I’ve known them, I’ve received two church-related invitations. The wife once invited me to some church event because they were learning about Dutch oven cooking. I went and had a good time. We also attended the blessing of one of their babies; they, in turn, attended the baptism of one of ours. They speak openly of their faith, we speak openly of ours. It is not an extremely close friendship, but it is genuine.

Oh, she did one time send the missionaries down to mow my lawn when I was pregnant, but she called and asked me if it was okay first. They mowed my lawn, I thanked them, and they asked me a few questions to determine whether I was interested in the church. That was all.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

I grew up in California. My parents wouldn’t come right out and say ‘no’, but they’d say “Well why don’t you have him over the house. We’ll order pizzas and rent movies!”, and then of course they’d invite the missionaries over and proselytize my friends unbeknownst to either them or their parents.

I’m going to come right out and say it: These people very likely don’t want to be real friends with you. They want to be friendly to you so that you’ll convert. This woman will keep pestering you about coming to her church until you’ve had enough and tell her in no uncertain terms that you’re not interested, after which she’ll cut off contact with you.

Mark my words.

Which is exactly why you should establish relationships with the missionaries. Its literally opportunity knocking on the door. We are called to preach the gospel but when missionaries actually want to have a conversation or start a relationship based on religious discussions we Catholics slam the door. It’s almost comical if it weren’t so sad.

 

[JMMJ]

I think the idea of discounting a friendship with somebody who is Mormon for no other reason than they are Mormon, is very sad. Also very sad to keep children from establishing friendships with other children just because they are Mormon. Certainly there is nothing to be afraid of. It’s not the boogeyman. All you need to learn is the phrase “no thank you”. And teach it to your kids as well.

Very sad.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Yeah, not to add fuel to the other side of the fire here. But mormon kids will be encouraged to disengage from non mormon friends. It’s not really a bad thing it’s just the way it is.

 

[minux]

If you are concerned, I would speak with the parents of the family in question. Mormons are just like Catholics. Some are awesome, some not so much. Contemporary Mormonism took on a modern flavor in recent years. Very similar, though not as drastic as Vatican II.

The thing to be mindful of is they consider that other denominations do not have the entire Gospel. A great example of this: until ten or so years ago, Mormons did not treat Our Savior was the deserved reverence. Mormons viewed Our Savior , more or less, as just another Prophet. The Mormons of today are obviously heavily influenced by the changes in contemporary society.

You question has a lot to do with how devout of a Catholic you are. Philosophically, you will have tremendous differences at the core. Where us Catholics may point to the Matthew for inspiration, Mormons will point to all those other non-cannon texts.

I would discuss faith with your neighbors, invite them to Mass, etc. Mormons can be a touch pushy, but that is due to you not knowing “the entire gospel.” Like any relationship, you have to make a choice with what you are comfortable with.

 

[gazelam]

Learn about Mormonism. Ask them hard questions, like
4) Why does the Book of Mormon “translation” use the French word Adieu (which means “To God”) instead of the more common (in English at least), farewell.

Because “adieu” is also an English word adopted from French long before the time of Joseph Smith. One can see the entry from the 1828 Webster’s dictionary here: Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Adieu

I hope this helps…

 

[Apache75]

He probably feels this way because he is getting called out on what he types here. Im thinking he wants this to be a one way discussion. Its not going to happen.

 

[5stars]

I’m glad your experience has been so warm! This is what I hoped ours would be too. Unfortunately there have been a lot more church invitations than I expected in a very short amount of time. I’m still allowing my kids to play with theirs but I don’t know how much of a friendship we’ll be able to maintain if it continues like this.

 

[gazelam]

Mormons did not treat Our Savior was the deserved reverence. Mormons viewed Our Savior , more or less, as just another Prophet.

Where us Catholics may point to the Matthew for inspiration, Mormons will point to all those other non-cannon texts.

I’m a life long devout Latter-day Saint and I do not recognize these particular statements regarding my faith. Would you care to elaborate? We Latter-day Saints believe only Christ atoned for our sins, something no prophet could do. Also, regarding Matthew, we’re all over Matthew! Our current Sunday School curriculum includes Matthew currently. For more information regarding this week’s area of study see February 18–24. Matthew 5; Luke 6: “Blessed Are Ye”

 

[minux]

I’m a life long devout Latter-day Saint and I do not recognize these particular statements regarding my faith. Would you care to elaborate

Of course! Mormon scripture is the quad: Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. While I may pull my inspiration from the Holy Bible, the Mormons I have know would 99% of the time pull from Doctrine and Covenants. Theological subtle contradictions exist.

We Latter-day Saints believe only Christ atoned for our sins, something no prophet could do.

We are talking subtle difference that are longstanding, right? For example, in Catholicism we do not believe in that we “become like God”(s) on Kolob. For Catholics to be like God, this means that we learn to walk with God. This further means we have capacity for good and evil, but we choose good. If we live our lives correctly, we will have a seat at God’s table when our time on this planet is over. Mormons view the afterlife as not joining God in the afterlife, but given a planet for re-population. This is one theological contradiction between Catholicism and Mormonism.

Mormonism revamped the utilization of Our Savior as a central figure in salvation. Our Savior was not part of the Mormon vernacular until about ten years ago. It was all Lehi, Nephi, etc. before then. In other words, Mormonism stresses the need for modern day prophets.

Catholics know there is no such thing as a modern day prophet. Our Savior is still on the Cross for us, metaphorically and pragmatically, and we do not need another Savior or Prophet. There is no salvation for Catholics without Our Savior, period.

Let’s pull that thread, right? We had the Miracle at Fatima (and a host of other Vatican-approved miracles). The Pope did not modify universal doctrine based on the Visions or add to the cannon with a modern day gospel. Catholics (i.e., an individual) can have personal revelations that connect one’s life closer to God, but we do not create another canonical gospel based on that personal experience. We see this, because what is the Book of Nephi and Lehi other than personal revelation of one man?

Mormonism aligns closer with Protestantism in the sense that personal revelation can superseded communicable doctrine. Catholicism does not raise the importance of the individual over the community.

 

[Lemuel]

Mormon scripture is the quad: Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Mormons also commonly regard the latest general conference as their “most current scripture”.

 

[lilypadrees]

I don’t see anything offensive in your comment, Lemuel. The only thing I can think of is that maybe a current Mormon took offense to it since you’re no longer a member of their church.

 

[gazelam]

While I may pull my inspiration from the Holy Bible, the Mormons I have know would 99% of the time pull from Doctrine and Covenants. Theological subtle contradictions exist.

Well, your interaction with Latter-day Saints has certainly been interesting. I wouldn’t expect that much sourcing from solely the D&C.

Mormons view the afterlife as not joining God in the afterlife,

This statement is incorrect. D&C 76:62, referring to the righteous, states: These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

Mormonism revamped the utilization of Our Savior as a central figure in salvation. Our Savior was not part of the Mormon vernacular until about ten years ago. It was all Lehi, Nephi, etc. before then. In other words, Mormonism stresses the need for modern day prophets.

Catholics, such as, Dr. Stephen Webb who have studied Latter-day Saint belief see things differently.

In affirming the divinity of Jesus, Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop. Thy answer the question of whether it is possible to say too much about Jesus with a resounding “No!”
Indeed, never has a religious movement combined so effortlessly the most extravagant assertions with the most level-headed and commonsensical tone. Mormon rhetoric is guided by the conviction that the only way to say enough about Christ is to say too much. As a result, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints puts Jesus Christ front and center in ways that would make many members of mainline Protestant denominations blush. Mormon theology is Christology unbound—extremism in defense of Christology that can appear eccentric only to those who think that understatement is a virtue.

from Stephen H. Webb, “Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints (reprint from his book Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter (Oxford University Press, 2012),” Brigham Young University Studies 50 no. 3 (2011)

Catholics know there is no such thing as a modern day prophet. Our Savior is still on the Cross for us, metaphorically and pragmatically, and we do not need another Savior or Prophet. There is no salvation for Catholics without Our Savior, period.

Two questions:

1. How do you exclude the prophets that Paul said would be with the Church “until we all attain to the unity of faith”? There hasn’t been a unity of faith since Paul, so that means that there should still be prophets.

Ephesians 4:11,13
11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,

13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ

1. What about the prophets that were to come after Jesus?

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets…
Revelation 11:3 I will commission my two witnesses to prophesy for those twelve hundred and sixty days, wearing sackcloth.