Mormon neighbors

[huck]

1. How do you exclude the prophets that Paul said would be with the Church “until we all attain to the unity of faith”? There hasn’t been a unity of faith since Paul, so that means that there should still be prophets.

Ephesians 4:11,13
11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets , others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,

13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God , to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ

1. What about the prophets that were to come after Jesus?

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets …
Revelation 11:3 I will commission my two witnesses to prophesy for those twelve hundred and sixty days, wearing sackcloth.

Hello Gazelam,
The function of a prophet according to the bible is

1. to go out away from civilization and attempt to receive God’s word without it being colored by his own thinking.
2. speak truth to power. (Think of Abinadi before King Noah)
3. Establish schools so that their skills can be passed on to the next generation.
   I’m sure there are some people from all faith systems who fulfill some of these criteria.

 

[Lemuel]

Mormons view the afterlife as not joining God in the afterlife

Basically correct. Here’s what Mormon scripture (D&C 25) says:

15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

Very simply, that means that unless you are perfect, i.e., unless you keep the commandments “continually”, where God is, you will never be. Unless there is some part of “continually” that allows for occasional sin.

Mormons totally reject the concept of grace as is shown in many of their scriptures. It’s such a mixed up, schizophrenic doctrine, I wonder how anyone can be a Mormonite.

 

[minux]

I do not want to nitpick what you said, but here we go back to faith based Truth. In Catholicism, we have an order. With the top being dogma. The dogma of the Church is no new prophets have emerged. We have people that have provided insight into the dogma of the Church and, like Merton, deeper understanding, but no, we have not had another John the Baptist.

I will not get into Temple ceremonies and the connection with Masonry. The only thing I would categorically define Mormonism as, like Masonry, naturalism. Mormons believe in hidden knowledge, new revelations, etc. Trust me, I get the personal desire for this, as I was a member of over 30 masonic bodies. While your casual Mormon may never get into further religious light, many Mormons take the meso-America, Kolob, Veil, ritual chanting, and hidden truths very seriously. All of this is dogmatically heresy from a Catholic perspective.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The problem here is, as always, lack of understanding and pulling a few verses out of the context of the whole of scripture (Bible).

Jesus fulfills all prophecy, including any possible future prophetic proclamations. By our baptism, we are made priests, prophets, and kings. We are sanctified by and in Jesus.

The prophetic mission, in these last days (now and since the ascensions of Jesus into heaven), is the preaching of the Good News of Jesus Christ. To teach every nation and people.

As members of the Body of Christ, we participate in His prophetic mission, when we share the truth of Jesus Christ. When we perform acts of charity. When we care for the marginalized.

We have no need, nor do we look for, another prophecy or prophet that supersedes or adds to the Word of God, fully revealed, in Jesus Christ.

The scriptures you quoted are understood by us, in the light of Jesus Christ, who is our High Priest, our Prophet, and our King. The specific gift of prophecy, is one of the Holy Spirit, and not one of a particular office…as are all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in the scripture you have quoted. Gifts, not offices. And as we have discussed before, there are many men and women throughout the history of the Church who are considered to have delivered prophetic messages.

We test the Spirit, and those claiming to be prophets, should always be inline with the original message delivered by Jesus, and handed on by the Apostles. The Good News, of Jesus Christ, is not diminished or lost, it is like He is, eternally alive. New so-called revelation, that claims to reveal dead knowledge, is self-evidently false and rightly ignored.

Again, I ask you, as I have several times. What do you think Jesus left out, wherein, you need to find a so-called prophet to inform you of the information He failed to impart?

 

[gazelam]

Very simply, that means that unless you are perfect, i.e., unless you keep the commandments “continually”, where God is, you will never be. Unless there is some part of “continually” that allows for occasional sin.

This is an incorrect understanding of Latter-day Saint belief. Keeping the commandments continually includes the commandment to repent of your sins. Also, Christ allows us to grow eventually into perfection as show by these two Latter-day Saint verses:

D&C 67:13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.

And from the parable of the Prodigal son we see the prodigal’s brother was angry at his father’s treatment of the returning son, and yet in spite of the brother’s uncharitable attitude the father promised everything to the faithful, but still uncharitable brother.

Luke 15:27-31
27 The servant said to him, ‘Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 He became angry, and when he refused to enter the house, his father came out and pleaded with him.

29 He said to his father in reply, ‘Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders; yet you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends.

30 But when your son returns who swallowed up your property with prostitutes, for him you slaughter the fattened calf.’

31 He said to him, ‘My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.

Mormons totally reject the concept of grace as is shown in many of their scriptures.

Latter-day Saints (at least, those that are paying attention) fully embrace the concept of grace as shown below.

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 25:22 …for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

The late Catholic scholar Stephen H. Webb noted the following regarding Joseph Smith teachings on grace:

Two corrections of common misrepresentations of Smith’s theology need to be made at this point. First, Mormons are often charged with denying the efficacy of grace and thus making salvation dependent upon the exercise of the individual’s free will. All theologians use the language of effort, reform, and growth, so this is not a fair charge… In any case, Smith describes the process of sanctification as being “from grace to grace.” Rather than replicating Pelagianism, Smith is siding with that aspect of the Christian tradition best represented by Thomas Aquinas, which says we can and must cooperate with divine grace in order to permit it to actualize our potential for divinization.

From Stephen H. Webb, “Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints”

I hope this helps…

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know that there is agreement on what it means to perfect, as Heavenly Father is perfect. For Catholics, it is rooted it charity (caritas), which is the love of God towards us, His creation. So perfection means, loving others as God loves us. The commandments given to us are for this purpose, that is, to teach us how to love as we ought. Repentance, is a grace, one of the means by which God shows his unconditional love towards us. God’s grace is God’s love towards us, especially in times of trial and even in our greatest sin…that is where we know God’s greatest love. St. Paul described this as, where sin increases, God’s love increases. Of course he followed that with, does that mean we should sin more? Of course not!

For Mormons, it seems to me perfection is about rule following and checking the boxes and then something called “grace” will happen after that. Grace being a reward for checking off the boxes.

 

[minux]

Totally concur. Categorically, protestant denominations, and let’s lump Mormonism into that mix for the sake of simplicity, focus on the individual sans the community. Catholicism is a deeper understanding of… call it grace, call it communion. In Catholicism, we are not in a race to get to Heaven instead of anyone else nor are we happy if we just make it to Heaven.

Stress it up and down until I am blue in the face, community is Catholicism. Here is an exemplar: if you (or I) make it to Heaven and we failed to bring this Mormon friend along with us, then according to Catholicism, we failed. Salvation of the individual is 1/10th Catholicism, while Salvation of the individual is 9/10 Protestantism.

To our Mormon friend, dogmatically, Mormonism is incorrect. We do not need anyone other than Our Savior. Nephi can blast his golden trumpet all day long until he is blue in the face, we can discover all sorts of Egyptian gold tablets, and we can do ritual chants for a “higher state of consciousness.” None of this matters outside of Our Savior.

 

[Lemuel]

For Mormons, it seems to me perfection is about rule following and checking the boxes and then something called “grace” will happen after that. Grace being a reward for checking off the boxes.

Exactly!

Here’s another verse that illustrates what you said:

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Notice it says you have to do all these things first . . . come unto Christ, be perfected in Him, deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness . . . THEN is his grace sufficient for you. Not before. Not until you first deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness. You have to check off all the boxes before his grace kicks in. You have to be perfect first. Which denies the whole concept of grace.

This is why so many Mormonites are miserable. It’s one of the reason that Utah is such a big user of anti depressants. These poor Mormons know that they don’t have a chance. They lose before the gate even opens. It’s a lost cause. I’ve seen the misery in the faces of more frustrated, more depressed Mormons than I can shake a stick at.

 

[Lemuel]

Nephi can blast his golden trumpet all day long until he is blue in the face

It’s funny that you said Nephi. Mormons don’t know the difference either. Joseph Smith was originally visited in the middle of the night by the angel Nephi who later became the angel Moroni. Another story that they can’t seem to get right.

Have you ever seen the Mormon version of Joe Smith in his bed with the angel Nephi standing in his room? Ever wonder how he was so lucky to have a nice comfy bed all to himself while his five other brothers must have been all squished up together on the floor in the corner of the bedroom where the light from Nephi wouldn’t have awaken them?

Moroni Appears to Joseph Smith in His Room (The Angel Moroni Appears to Joseph Smith)

 

[Lemuel]

Here’s another belief of Mormons regarding grace (from the Book of Mormon):

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Notice that, once again, it is AFTER we do something. In this case, it’s after ALL we can do.

What is ALL we can do? Ask any Mormon what that means. God commands us to be perfect and Mormons don’t believe that God gives us any commandment that we can’t keep (1 Nephi 3:7). So, there are NO commandments, NONE, ZERO, that we can’t keep. Ask a Mormon, in that context, “Have you done all you can do?” If they say, “yes” then they are claiming that they are perfect and I’ve never met a perfect Mormon. If they say, “no” then they are admitting that the grace of God won’t save them. It’s that simple.

 

[5stars]

Stephen H. Webb isn’t characterized as an overall orthodox Catholic theologian. Anyone can call himself a theologian, and there are many dissenting theologians in the world. Quoting Webb doesn’t give your argument very much credence from a Catholic perspective.

 

[Crocus]

This is why so many Mormonites are miserable. It’s one of the reason that Utah is such a big user of anti depressants. These poor Mormons know that they don’t have a chance. They lose before the gate even opens. It’s a lost cause. I’ve seen the misery in the faces of more frustrated, more depressed Mormons than I can shake a stick at.

This is interesting. If this is the weight they carry when they come to my door, what is the simplest, easiest message I could give them that they would be able to understand? Keep in mind that I am not an expert on the differences between our respective faith language. What is it that they truly want but don’t know how to recognize? (The light switch.)

None of this matters outside of Our Savior.

Answering my own question, have been in a miserable, depressed place. It was Jesus who lifted me out. I then searched all bible passages OT and NT, for every instance of “friend.” It’s Jesus. That’s where my comfort and saneness rests.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Mormons did not treat Our Savior was the deserved reverence. Mormons viewed Our Savior , more or less, as just another Prophet.

Not true.
Christ is hardly seen as “just another prophet” in Mormonism

We need to speak out in truth, for sure, but lying about someone or some organization is a sin. It goes against the “thou shalt not bear false witness” commandment.

Don’t lie about Mormons or any other group, please.

 

[Crocus]

@AngelaMarie, What adjectives (strongest first) would you use to describe Mormon view of Jesus?

 

[minux]

As we are in the nature of giving sage advice, please read the backstory before jumping to conclusions for all future discourse. Re-read all my statements before making sweeping generalizations. The recent view of Mormonism on Our Savior occurred within the last ten years. Your thought is late to the conversation without the subtext I described in detail.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Easy, based on my having been Mormon.

Savior of the world.
Son of God.
First born of the father
The promised Messiah

How I view Mormon doctrine is that it’s more of a distortion of the Truth, as opposed to an out right lie.

We all suffer from distortions from time to time, whether spiritually, emotionally, intellectually etc. Mormons suffer from spiritual distortions

 

[AngelaMarie]

The recent view of Mormonism on Our Savior occurred within the last ten years

Having been Mormon myself back in the 80’s and 90’s, you are wrong in saying that the idea of Jesus being Our Savior is something “new” in the last decade.

That is a lie, and I know it. Because I was a very faithful and devout Mormon, living in UT, back in the 80’s and 90’s

 

[minux]

Really, Our Savior is the cornerstone of Mormonism and that was always the case? You seriously contend that was true in the 1980s?

If this is true, how do you explain the connection to masonry, the lack of regard for the Holy Bible compared to D&C, meso-America, the group chanting, Kolob planet, idolatry of Nephi, etc.? Where is any of this in the Holy Bible? Where does it say in the Bible to sit tight, because Joseph Smith is coming? Where does Our Savior tell us that we do not enter the Master’s Kingdom, but we take over a planet and repopulate it?

 

[Lemuel]

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, not knowing what his background is. There’s a difference between a misunderstanding and a lie. I agree with you that Mormons don’t consider Jesus to be “just another prophet”. The words of “I Believe in Christ” come to mind. It was among my favorite hymns when I was a member.

I think his sentiments may stem from what we always called “prophet worship”. While Jesus isn’t just another prophet, Mormons have a tendency to elevate other prophets to a state of deity. I remember one of the most disturbing general conference addresses was one by Elder Russell Nelson before he was the president. He gave a talk about the great example of our prophet (who I think at the time was Hinckley) and how he should be our role model, etc. Jesus is my role model, not Hinckley or JS or anyone else. Jesus. He is the example I try to follow . . . even though I often don’t do a very good job of it.

Then you have hymns like “Praise to the Man” and “Oh How Lovely Was the Morning” and “We Listen to a Prophet’s Voice” and “Come Listen to a Prophet’s Voice” and “We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet” and “God, Bless Our Prophet Dear” and . . . hymns that are practically prophet worship. I can’t remember the last time in mass that we sang praises to Pope Francis or Peter or any other men. It just doesn’t sit right with me. But then, Joseph Smith has done more to keep a church together than any man, including Jesus. Jesus’ followers left him. Joseph’s did not. And Joseph is now mingling with Gods in his next station, so why not worship him as well?

 

[AngelaMarie]

Really, Our Savior is the cornerstone of Mormonism and that was always the case? You seriously contend that was true in the 1980s?

ABSOLUTLY I seriously contend and witness to Mormons believing the Christ is the Savior of the world
I taught Sunday School, RS, sat thru years of general conferences, stake conference, sacrament meetings etc.

Right in the heart of Mormondom, even Brigham Young University