Mormon polygamy and spiritual manifestations

  • Thread starter Thread starter why_me
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

why_me

Guest
en.fairmormon.org/Plural_marriage_spiritual_manifestations

The interesting thing about the information from the above link is the spiritual manifestations experienced by many polygamous women who were sealed to Joseph Smith. It seems that god certainly works in mysterious ways. Can we deny what these women felt or saw?

Polygamy is often portrayed as a lust grap by JS. But it doesn’t seem likely. The women who are mentioned on the website are not a complete list but certainly they do make an impression.

en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_because_of_lustful_motives

So much for the lustful intent…🙂
 
en.fairmormon.org/Plural_marriage_spiritual_manifestations

The interesting thing about the information from the above link is the spiritual manifestations experienced by many polygamous women who were sealed to Joseph Smith. It seems that god certainly works in mysterious ways. Can we deny what these women felt or saw?

Polygamy is often portrayed as a lust grap by JS. But it doesn’t seem likely. The women who are mentioned on the website are not a complete list but certainly they do make an impression.

en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_because_of_lustful_motives

So much for the lustful intent…🙂
interesting, thank you. I will read this material more completely when i have time. I just read Doctrin and Covenants section 132, it appears that Joseph’s first wife Emma did not take kindly to the new principle of plural wives. in verse 54 the lord appaers to be threatening her with destruction unless she abide. very interesting.

i read somwhere that Joseph had around 30 wives. are there any stories of lust associated with any of these? that you know of?
 
interesting, thank you. I will read this material more completely when i have time. I just read Doctrin and Covenants section 132, it appears that Joseph’s first wife Emma did not take kindly to the new principle of plural wives. in verse 54 the lord appaers to be threatening her with destruction unless she abide. very interesting.

i read somwhere that Joseph had around 30 wives. are there any stories of lust associated with any of these? that you know of?
It didn’t go over kindly with many members at that time. And some leaders of the lds church, I believe, did walk away. There are of course a couple first impressions and second hand accounts that speak unkindly of JS and the practice.

I posted the post to demonstrate that polygamy was not a clear cut ‘lust’ undertaking as some critics contend. I have always maintained that JS could have gotten sex without charading the polygamy revelation in some other county. Polygamy eventually caused hardship for the lds at that time (one reason that he wished to keep the practice secret) and was one of the reasons for JS’s murder.

In terms of ‘destruction’ I believe that this word is used in the bible. However, the interpretation of destruction is up for grabs.

Here is a link to Emma and Polygamy:

en.fairmormon.org/Emma_Smith_and_polygamy

Criticism
Critics contend that Emma Hale Smith either did not approve of the Prophet Joseph Smith having plural wives or know of the revelation concerning celestial marriage(s).

Source(s) of the Criticism
[needs work]

Response
Critics often neglect to provide citations from eye-witnesses who reported Emma’s attitude toward plural marriage at other times:

Allen J. Stout, who served as a bodyguard for Joseph, recounted a conversation he overheard in the Mansion House between Joseph and his tormented wife. A summary of his account states that “from moments of passionate denunciation [Emma] would subside into tearful repentance and acknowledge that her violent opposition to that principle was instigated by the power of darkness; that Satan was doing his utmost to destroy her, etc. And solemnly came the Prophet’s inspired warning: ‘Yes, and he will accomplish your overthrow, if you do not heed my counsel.’”[1]
Emma’s inner conflict was also dramatized in another report:

Maria Jane Johnston, who lived with Emma as a servant girl, recalled the Prophet’s wife looking very downcast one day and telling her that the principle of plural marriage was right and came from Heavenly Father. “What I said I have got [to] repent of,” lamented Emma. “The principle is right but I am jealous hearted. Now never tell anybody that you heard me find fault with that [principle;] we have got to humble ourselves and repent of it.” [2]
Emma asked Joseph for a blessing not long before he went to Carthage. Joseph told her to write the best blessing she could, and he would sign it upon his return. Wrote Emma:

I desire with all my heart to honor and respect my husband as my head, ever to live in his confidence and by acting in unison with him retain the place which God has given me by his side…I desire the spirit of God to know and understand myself, I desire a fruitful, active mind, that I may be able to comprehend the designs of God, when revealed through his servants without doubting.[3]
Conclusion
Emma was aware of plural marriage; it is not clear at exactly what point she was made aware, partly due to there being relatively few early sources on the matter. Emma was generally opposed to the practice of plural marriage, and did much to try and thwart it. There were times, however, when Emma gave permission for Joseph’s plural marriages, though she soon changed her mind. Emma was troubled by plural marriage, but her difficulties arose partly from her conviction that Joseph was a prophet:

Zina Huntington remembered a conversation between Elizabeth [Davis] and Emma [Smith] in which Elizabeth asked the prophet’s wife if she felt that Joseph was a prophet. Yes, Emma answered, but I wish to God I did not know it.[4]
Emma never denied Joseph’s prophetic calling; she did, however, teach her children that Joseph had never taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and blamed its introduction on Brigham Young. Torn between two certitudes—her conviction of Joseph’s prophetic calling, and her hatred of plural marriage—Emma had difficult choices to make for which we ought not to judge her.

But, the critics ought to let all of Emma speak for herself—she had a great trial, but also had great knowledge. That she continued to support Joseph’s calling and remain with him, despite her feelings about plural marriage, speaks much of her convictions. As she told Parley P. Pratt years later:

I believe he [Joseph] was everything he professed to be.[5]
 
As I posted in another thread, JS told teenage girls and their parents that if they didn’t marry him and submit to his sexual advances, their entire family would be damned. He also traded powerful church positions to men who gave him their young daughters. He also married women that were already married, and their husbands were so afraid of him that they allowed it. Do a little research and find out what happened to the men that refused. And the fact that he hid his polygamy from his first wife for so long, and didn’t “reveal” the practice until she confronted him and threatened to leave him doesn’t suggest that he saw it as righteous.

If it wasn’t a megalomaniac giving in to his lust, then what was it?
 
It seems to me Emma would have had nothing to be jealous of if there were not sexual relations in these marriages, if they were merely dynastic as has been suggested by some.
Anyway, Will Durant “felt great relief” when he stopped believing in God. Can we deny what he felt?
 
It seems to me Emma would have had nothing to be jealous of if there were not sexual relations in these marriages, if they were merely dynastic as has been suggested by some.
Anyway, Will Durant “felt great relief” when he stopped believing in God. Can we deny what he felt?
I don’t know if she was jealous. She may have just disproved of the practice without the jealousy. Emma and Joseph been through a lot together. Many sacrifices were made by the both of them. With polygamy both were between a rock and a hard place. She believed her husband to be a prophet. Believe in the book of mormon but just could not get a handle on polygamy. After Joseph was murdered she settled down with his mother to a peaceful life. Later married a non-mormon who was not hostile toward mormonism but never denied her husband’s prophetic calling. She had no love for Brigham Young and if she would have know it was all a fraud, she would have spilled the beans.
 
yet she started her own church and denied MANY of JS “prophecies” that are canonized by LDS.
 
If Emma was not jealous or upset by Joseph’s sexual relations with other women, then

why did she leave him after she and Oliver Cowdery found him in the barn having sex with 15 year-old Fanny Alger (before “spiritual wifery” was announced as being from God)?

why did she throw Eliza Snow down the stairs after she caught Eliza in the bedroom with Joseph?

These are only a few of the incidents of Emma’s wrath. You really think she was okay with all this? Even Mormon historians will disagree with you on that.

Paul
 
If Emma was not jealous or upset by Joseph’s sexual relations with other women, then

why did she leave him after she and Oliver Cowdery found him in the barn having sex with 15 year-old Fanny Alger (before “spiritual wifery” was announced as being from God)?

why did she throw Eliza Snow down the stairs after she caught Eliza in the bedroom with Joseph?

These are only a few of the incidents of Emma’s wrath. You really think she was okay with all this? Even Mormon historians will disagree with you on that.

Paul
I don’t have a source for this, but I believe Emma went and complained to Oliver Cowdery after she found Joe on the couch, molesting 16-year old Fanny Alger. As I recall, Cowdery described it in his journal as a “disgusting, horrible affair” or something like that.
 
yet she started her own church and denied MANY of JS “prophecies” that are canonized by LDS.
She was asked to join the mainstream church but declined because of the suffering that she went through with her husband. She was asked to join the Reorganized church but I don’t think that she founded that church. I have no record of her denying any of his prophecies. But she did deny polygamy when asked by her son, Joseph Smith lll. Hence the reoganized church never acknowledged JS’s polygamy.
 
She was asked to join the mainstream church but declined because of the suffering that she went through with her husband. She was asked to join the Reorganized church but I don’t think that she founded that church. I have no record of her denying any of his prophecies. But she did deny polygamy when asked by her son, Joseph Smith lll. Hence the reoganized church never acknowledged JS’s polygamy.
Why did she lie to her son?
 
I don’t have a source for this, but I believe Emma went and complained to Oliver Cowdery after she found Joe on the couch, molesting 16-year old Fanny Alger. As I recall, Cowdery described it in his journal as a “disgusting, horrible affair” or something like that.
And yet, Oliver came back to the church and never denied his testimony of the book of mormon nor that he saw the plates. But you give a good slant on the issue.
 
Why did she lie to her son?
Good question. I believe that Emma wished to remember the Kirkland Joseph Smith and forget the Nauvoo Joseph Smith. The Nauvoo JS was a revolutionary while the Kirkland JS was more conventional. She was also hostile toward the whole polygamy issue. I do believe that JS III went to Utah to find out the truth. He was told that his father was sealed to other women. I think that I got it right.

But she still believed her husband to be a prophet and believed in the book of mormon.
 
And yet, Oliver came back to the church and never denied his testimony of the book of mormon nor that he saw the plates. But you give a good slant on the issue.
Not trying to slant anything, just backing up Mr. DuPre, who got it right as I heard it.

“A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his [Joseph Smith’s] and Fanny Alger’s was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.”
-Oliver Cowdery, in a letter to his brother Warren

Do you like polygamy? Is it something that you feel is consistent with Mormonism? Not trying to be argumentative here, and it’s fine if you do (different strokes and all that). Just curious.
 
She was asked to join the mainstream church but declined because of the suffering that she went through with her husband. She was asked to join the Reorganized church but I don’t think that she founded that church. I have no record of her denying any of his prophecies. But she did deny polygamy when asked by her son, Joseph Smith lll. Hence the reoganized church never acknowledged JS’s polygamy.
D&C 132 amongst others. she was certainly a professed believer in the RLDS church which denied all of the Temple ordinances as well as polygamy. she refused to join the brighamite church because she disagreed with their doctrine and their leadership. she also wanted to keep the disputed property.
 
she also wanted to keep the disputed property.
Which, this is something that has never made sense to me. Usually the historical accounts go something like: when the mormons were expelled from Nauvoo, Emma stayed behind.

How is it that the wife of the recently murdered leader of this bunch was not expelled with the rest of them?
 
Which, this is something that has never made sense to me. Usually the historical accounts go something like: when the mormons were expelled from Nauvoo, Emma stayed behind.

How is it that the wife of the recently murdered leader of this bunch was not expelled with the rest of them?
yeah…they weren’t “expelled” from kirtland either. JOSEPH was the one who kept having to leave town. some came after him because they felt swindled (banking, land, prophecies to sell/donate/etc., some felt threatened by his and sidney rigdon’s on Joseph’s behalf speeches (and his militia) and some were mad that he was trying to seduce their wives/daughters/girlfriends/etc. that’s where the “persecution” and the “mobs” came from. none of those folks seems to have card about the BoM or anything else regarding mormonism. they objected to polygamy and what they saw as a tyrant taking over or threatening to take over their area.
 
yeah…they weren’t “expelled” from kirtland either. JOSEPH was the one who kept having to leave town. some came after him because they felt swindled (banking, land, prophecies to sell/donate/etc., some felt threatened by his and sidney rigdon’s on Joseph’s behalf speeches (and his militia) and some were mad that he was trying to seduce their wives/daughters/girlfriends/etc. that’s where the “persecution” and the “mobs” came from. none of those folks seems to have card about the BoM or anything else regarding mormonism. they objected to polygamy and what they saw as a tyrant taking over or threatening to take over their area.
Hey Bishop Majick,

(Sorry, once a bishop…you know)

Have you ever heard the rumor that Emma joined the Strangites for a while, before she reorganized the Missouri church? I’ve been trying to find a valid reference, and haven’t had much luck. Just curious as to whether this is scuttlebutt or has some fact behind it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top