Mormon PR Campaign: Do Good Individuals Equal A Good Church?

[Jim_Dandy]

Dandy, if I used your definition of “Christian,” then I would be insisting that I am the Christian and you…aren’t.

Good thing I don’t use your definition, isn’t it?

Strike one:

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. It is the fulfillment of Judaism, also a monotheistic religion. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion, or at best a henotheistic religion.

Mormonism tries to define itself as monotheistic by claiming “there are many Gods, but only one God – the God of Earth – pertains to us.” The Mormon God is merely an ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones.

Christian? :nope:

Jim Dandy

 

[dianaiad]

Strike one:

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. It is the fulfillment of Judaism, also a monotheistic religion. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion, or at best a henotheistic religion.

Mormonism tries to define itself as monotheistic by claiming “there are many Gods, but only one God – the God of Earth – pertains to us.” The Mormon God is merely an ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones.

Christian? :nope:

Jim Dandy

Actually, compared to truly monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islaam, Christianity is polytheistic. You don’t believe me? Just ask a Muslim or a Jew. I think you are correct about Mormonism being henotheistic…as in, we do recognize the possibility of other gods, though we have absolutely know idea if they exist, or who they might be–nor does it matter. We worship, however, only one. God the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ, Who communicates to us through the Holy Ghost. The three of them make up the Godhead…but we pray only to God the Father.

That makes us, frankly, a lot closer to monotheistic than traditional, Trinitarian Christianity.

As for God being ‘merely’ an exalted Man…watch that ‘merely’ there. We believe that God does indeed have a body of flesh and bone, and that He created us in His image. There is no ‘merely’ about being God, the Creator of all things. Understanding that we are His children is not demoting HIM in any way. It simply acknowledges our relationship to Him.

Now…all that said, it is not required, for salvation, to be called ‘monotheists.’ It is required only that we be correct–whatever classification you want to put on our beliefs. So, if Christianity is not exactly monotheistic in the strictest sense, so what? We are right. If Mormonism is henotheistic rather than the more slippery polytheism that strict monotheists view Christianity in general as, who cares? We’re right.

…and that, my friend, is what the bottom line is.

As for “Christian,” you are wasting your time pounding on that nail. You do not have the right to tell me that I cannot use the title 'Christian," when I know full well that I am—and you SURE don’t have the right to tell me that I’m not Christ’s.

In fact, in terms of that, there are only two people who have a vote in that issue, and you are neither one of them.

 

[NMcowboy79]

I am going to start this post by saying that I am Catholic, though have not practiced the faith until just recently for about 9 months.

I was in an abusive relationship with a girl who supposed herself Catholic(she claimed “Traditional”, but that was far from the case and beside the point here. I fell away from the faith, questioning what I believed and finally not really caring, because then it didn’t seem that anything mattered. I met a missionary “companionship”(because they do everything as a team, almost) at a friends house. It wasn’t long and I was a practicing mormon. I was “ordained” to the priesthood in their church and progressed on, until last week when I started thinking about things and really felt uneasy about what I was doing.

For the most part, Mormons are good, decent people. They are a little on the judgmental side, but no more so than any other group. The majority of mormon women I know are stay-at-home moms or were so when they had children.

In response to the question posed in the title, No. False doctrine has nothing to do with the lives of the individual. A person of otherwise good character can spread false doctrine and heresy. His character doesn’t make his doctrine true.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Friends, the topic of this thread is “Do Good Individuals Equal A Good Church?” Everything being discussed now has nothing to do with the topic. Can we refocus or start a new thread?

What is your definition of “good”?

Jim Dandy

 

[JeanMichel]

What is your definition of “good”?

Jim Dandy

I did not begin the thread so I am not clear on what the first post strictly means. What is your definition of “good”?

 

[JeanMichel]

I am going to start this post by saying that I am Catholic, though have not practiced the faith until just recently for about 9 months.

I was in an abusive relationship with a girl who supposed herself Catholic(she claimed “Traditional”, but that was far from the case and beside the point here. I fell away from the faith, questioning what I believed and finally not really caring, because then it didn’t seem that anything mattered. I met a missionary “companionship”(because they do everything as a team, almost) at a friends house. It wasn’t long and I was a practicing mormon. I was “ordained” to the priesthood in their church and progressed on, until last week when I started thinking about things and really felt uneasy about what I was doing.

For the most part, Mormons are good, decent people. They are a little on the judgmental side, but no more so than any other group. The majority of mormon women I know are stay-at-home moms or were so when they had children.

In response to the question posed in the title, No. False doctrine has nothing to do with the lives of the individual. A person of otherwise good character can spread false doctrine and heresy. His character doesn’t make his doctrine true.

You are in a great place because the Spirit is present in your life. As you continue to think about your choices and your life, remember that you are a child of God. Go back to the Catholic Church, attend Mass, remember the meaning of the Holy Eucharist. For me, reading anything written by John Paul II is ideal for inspiration and guidance. For those doctrines that have begun to bother you, do your research on this site. If you feel it necessary, ask those same questions to your Mormon friends. Here is the answer, listen to the Holy Spirit speak. He will comfort you and guide you in your thoughts and actions.

Through this process, please continue to serve others, express your love to them, demonstrate your love through actions. The more you emulate Christ the more easily it will be for you to feel His presence in your life. You are not alone and your God is with you.

 

[benidict]

I know, benedict, and thank you for your patience with my ‘rant.’—which wasn’t a comment really on the disparate doctrines, but about the mindset–which you have actually repeated here, in a way.

Think of it this way:

What is happening when a woman is pregnant?

                she is physically creating life, or at least the mortal body in which an immortal spirit resides, right? She is, in fact, as close to a creator on this planet as mortal humans can come, all things considered.

If this is so, why would the idea that women would be ‘eternally pregnant’ be a disturbing one? Why is it considered to be something demeaning or opressive?..because when the anti’s say that, this is precisely the connotation they give the idea; to be ‘eternally pregnant’ is presented as something —not to be desired; oppressive; of lesser value. Why?

Perhaps, because if they actually said “Mormons think that an exhalted couple would spend eternity creating their own spririt children just as their Father in Heaven has,” the "ick’ factor is suddenly gone?

Bugs me.

As well it’s illogical as all get out, even if the idea were entirely reflective of LDS thought, (and it isn’t, but let’s go with the idea just for kicks and giggles) people who make this accusation aren’t really doing a lot of critical thinking. Remember, We believe that God created us as spirits before we were physically born to mortal mothers here on earth. In fact, the only physical bodies that He created directly (whether ‘from the dust’ in an instant or through evolutionary processes) were those of our first parents, Adam and Eve. They and their descendents have been happily taking over the job of forming mortal bodies ever since.

So…we beleive that eventually we will all be ressurected and have very physical bodies of flesh and bone; very different from the spirits that God created for us–so.

Just exactly how are these fully physical resurrected women supposed to be PREGNANT with beings of pure spirit, anyway?

sheesh.

hi Diana. i figured you would bring this up. i dont find it demeaning or repressive for a woman to be pregnant. in fact i think a woman with child is one of the most beautiful aspects of Gods creation. i was just thinking in terms of all the complications that go with it. the swollen ankles, the hormonal changes the mood swings. lol! i was just thinking yall would want a break from all that… but if its on a spirit plane, i guess the rules would be different. we do read in genisis, that eve would have increased pains in child bearing. does that mean she gave birth before the fall, and that the natural rules were different? could be. id love your thoughts on this. im probably gonna get into trouble here, but why would there not be children born in heaven, and why would the family structure have to end. its not just the Mormons who believe that certain things go on in eternity, such as marriage. Jewish mystics also have some interesting things to say on the subject. i believe rabbi David Cooper writes on this very issue in his book, “God is a verb.” have you ever had the pleasure of reading it? Christ is not only coming back to restore the spiritual, but the physical as well, to a state of perfection. just me speculating. could be dangerous… Peace to you and yours.

 

[benidict]

benidict;7088318:

Source(s) please.

that would be the book the god makers by ed decker and david hunt. Peace

 

[benidict]

Christianity is a revealed religion. God revealed Himself and His plan for man’s salvation. He did not write it – He revealed it through His Son, Jesus Christ, and from Christ to His chosen Apostles, the leaders and teachers of the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. God revealed Himself as a Trinity of Persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit – in One God.

‘Man is made in the image and likeness of God’ means that man was created by God a trinity of intellect (mind), will, and Spirit (soul) – not that God is the image of man!

The “image of God” is a theological term, applied only to humans, which reveals the symbolical relation between God and us. The term comes from Genesis 1:27, wherein “God created man in his own image. . .” This does not mean that God is in human form, but rather, that humans are in the image of God in their moral, spiritual, and intellectual nature.

It says in the Gospel of John, “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:24) Joseph Smith must have skipped that part.

The Bible must be read holistically – all of it – in order to understand it. We must understand what the sacred authors intended to convey when they wrote it. How did the Apostles understand Genesis? St. John the Apostle certainly didn’t believe “God was a man like us.” “Proof-texting” the Scriptures leads to abberant doctrines like the Mormon belief that God is the image of man.

Christian? :nope:

Jim Dandy

i could also add that the star of david offers some insights. the triangle pointing up, represents the male the triangle pointing down represents the female. the two triangles interlocked forming the star of david represent male and female combined, form the image of God. this is why intercourse between only a man and his wife is holy. and all other forms are a perversion. they make a mockery of this image. i tend to study the bible more from a middle eastern perspective rather than a western perspective. it really does broaden ones horizons. this is why a study in kabbalah in some measure can be benificial to ones understanding of their own faith. as always the Church has the final say. but much of what is taught, is right in line with her. after all, the Catholic Church is the closest thing to the temple worship that the Jews had. if you need sources, i would suggest God is a verb by rabbi david cooper, for an introduction, and then if you wish, a very good translation of the zohar is daniel c. matts translation. its a bit expensive. 10 volumes apx 50 dollars apiece. and only volumes 1-5 are complete. peace

 

[benidict]

I am going to start this post by saying that I am Catholic, though have not practiced the faith until just recently for about 9 months.

I was in an abusive relationship with a girl who supposed herself Catholic(she claimed “Traditional”, but that was far from the case and beside the point here. I fell away from the faith, questioning what I believed and finally not really caring, because then it didn’t seem that anything mattered. I met a missionary “companionship”(because they do everything as a team, almost) at a friends house. It wasn’t long and I was a practicing mormon. I was “ordained” to the priesthood in their church and progressed on, until last week when I started thinking about things and really felt uneasy about what I was doing.

For the most part, Mormons are good, decent people. They are a little on the judgmental side, but no more so than any other group. The majority of mormon women I know are stay-at-home moms or were so when they had children.

In response to the question posed in the title, No. False doctrine has nothing to do with the lives of the individual. A person of otherwise good character can spread false doctrine and heresy. His character doesn’t make his doctrine true.

nicely put. :clapping: and welcome to CAF. peace

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I am going to start this post by saying that I am Catholic, though have not practiced the faith until just recently for about 9 months.

I was in an abusive relationship with a girl who supposed herself Catholic(she claimed “Traditional”, but that was far from the case and beside the point here. I fell away from the faith, questioning what I believed and finally not really caring, because then it didn’t seem that anything mattered. I met a missionary “companionship”(because they do everything as a team, almost) at a friends house. It wasn’t long and I was a practicing mormon. I was “ordained” to the priesthood in their church and progressed on, until last week when I started thinking about things and really felt uneasy about what I was doing.

For the most part, Mormons are good, decent people. They are a little on the judgmental side, but no more so than any other group. The majority of mormon women I know are stay-at-home moms or were so when they had children.

In response to the question posed in the title, No. False doctrine has nothing to do with the lives of the individual. A person of otherwise good character can spread false doctrine and heresy. His character doesn’t make his doctrine true.

Inside Mormonism was written by a Catholic priest – Isaiah Bennett – who, in a state of depression, became a Mormon. He married, moved to Salt Lake City where he was immersed in Mormonism, and taught LDS theology at the college level. After two years, he realized Mormonism could not be true. Filled with remorse, he left and returned to the Catholic Church as a layman. Karl Keating of Catholic Answers encouraged him to write his story. The book is available at this website. He also wrote When Mormons Call, Answering Mormon Missionaries at Your Door, also published and sold by Catholic Answers. Several of his articles are available on the internet – just google his name. You may find his books and articles helpful.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim Dandy;7091129:

that would be the book the god makers by ed decker and david hunt. Peace

Thanks! I have the book, but I haven’t reread it recently. Do you know the page number? Dave Hunt is a notoriously anti-Catholic (as well as anti-Mormon) writer whose scholarship is questionable. I haven’t any info about Ed Decker.

 

[dianaiad]

benidict;7092002:

Thanks! I have the book, but I haven’t reread it recently. Do you know the page number? Dave Hunt is a notoriously anti-Catholic (as well as anti-Mormon) writer whose scholarship is questionable. I haven’t any info about Ed Decker.

Decker is worse than Hunt, if possible. He makes Jack Chick look like a Catholic apologist.

His books regarding Mormonism have been dismissed as woefully inaccurate and incredibly biased; pretty much useless as a source of beliefs regarding Mormonism–to the point that if Ed Decker claims Mormons believe a thing you can be fairly certain that whatever it is Mormons do believe, that ain’t it.

—and the above opinion isn’t held only by Mormons. His works have received scathing reviews by most Christian groups.

 

[LongJourney]

Thanks! I have the book, but I haven’t reread it recently. Do you know the page number? Dave Hunt is a notoriously anti-Catholic (as well as anti-Mormon) writer whose scholarship is questionable. I haven’t any info about Ed Decker.

Ed Decker also has a poor reputation among critics of Mormonism.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

dianaiad wrote on the CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) thread:

I was not allowed to post anything at all [at CARM], objectionable or not. I had a problem with the rule that said that Mormons had to admit that they were not Christian in order to post.

Which Christian entity regards Mormonism as Christian?

The World Christian Encyclopedia (2001) lists Mormons with JWs and similar organizations as “Marginal Christians.” That’s the only way Mormons and other abberant groups – who claim to be Christian – could be counted.

Actually, compared to truly monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islaam, Christianity is polytheistic. You don’t believe me? Just ask a Muslim or a Jew.

Most Jews and Muslims do not investigate the meaning of the Trinity. However, if you look up the Association of Hebrew Catholics, you’ll find that not to be the case with all Jews. And a few Muslims – who overcome their fear of death threats from their fellow Muslims – do manage to become Catholic.

You don’t understand the Christian Trinity. There is only One God. Period.

The First Commandment: “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” The Jews were surrounded by polytheists when this Commandment was given.

". . .before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 43:10.

I think you are correct about Mormonism being henotheistic…as in, we do recognize the possibility of other gods, though we have absolutely know idea if they exist, or who they might be–nor does it matter.

“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people in it. . .” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 349.

We worship, however, only one. God the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ, Who communicates to us through the Holy Ghost. The three of them make up the Godhead…but we pray only to God the Father.

I seem to recall an earlier exchange where it was posted that Mormons were forbidden to pray to Jesus, and you denied it???

The Mormon notion of “Godhead” and “Trinity” is three separate Gods united in purpose. And there are all those “exalted” Mormons who have or will become Gods. And you don’t know if other Gods exist??? Hmmmm.

The Christian definition of “Godhead” is the Divinity – the divine essence or nature – with stress on God’s total transcendence of creation (Modern Catholic Dictionary, John Hardon, S. J., p. 233.

That makes us, frankly, a lot closer to monotheistic than traditional, Trinitarian Christianity.

Christians have believed in One God for 2000 years, and the Jews for 2000 years before that. Joseph Smith founded your organization 180 years ago. The basis of your religion is the teachings of a man who purported to find buried treasure by looking through magic “peep stones” in his hat. Christianity is based upon the teachings of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, and His Apostles through His Church, founded for the salvation of the world.

As for God being ‘merely’ an exalted Man…watch that ‘merely’ there. We believe that God does indeed have a body of flesh and bone, and that He created us in His image. There is no ‘merely’ about being God, the Creator of all things. Understanding that we are His children is not demoting HIM in any way. It simply acknowledges our relationship to Him.

How strange that for 4,000 years, the Jews never knew there are many Gods, and that God is an ‘exalted’ man who makes others in his physical image. It was Joseph Smith in 1830 who twisted the words of Scripture to come up with that notion.

Again, this is the teaching of one Joseph Smith alone. It is neither Jewish nor Christian.

Now…all that said, it is not required, for salvation, to be called ‘monotheists.’

Those who do not believe in Christ and His Church through no fault of their own MAY be saved. Two emphases: through no fault of their own (they lack knowledge), and MAY. No guarantees.

It is required only that we be correct–whatever classification you want to put on our beliefs.

You may call your beliefs anything you like – but be aware that they are not Christian.

, if Christianity is not exactly monotheistic in the strictest sense, so what?

Judaism and it’s fulfillment, Christianity, are monotheistic religions. Sorry, but your understanding of the Trinity is faulty.

We are right. If Mormonism is henotheistic rather than the more slippery polytheism that strict monotheists view Christianity in general as, who cares?

Christianity is not “slippery polytheism.” Again, this is your misunderstanding of the Trinity.

We’re right.

…and that, my friend, is what the bottom line is.

Only if Joseph Smith is right and Jesus and the Apostles are wrong. Other Christians and I don’t think so.

As for “Christian,” you are wasting your time pounding on that nail. You do not have the right to tell me that I cannot use the title 'Christian," when I know full well that I am—and you SURE don’t have the right to tell me that I’m not Christ’s.

In fact, in terms of that, there are only two people who have a vote in that issue, and you are neither one of them.

Words have meaning. “Christianity” and “Christian” define and describe a set of core beliefs which are totally lacking in Mormonism, JWs, and others.

I may call myself a spotted owl, but if I lack the characteristics that are defined and described by the word “owl,” even if I have spots, I would be wrong.

Please, dianaiad, my arguments are not directed to you personally, but to the false claims of Mormonism.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Garland]

Jim Dandy, WOW, very well put. Thank You. Blessings. Garland

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim Dandy;7094442:

Decker is worse than Hunt, if possible. He makes Jack Chick look like a Catholic apologist.

His books regarding Mormonism have been dismissed as woefully inaccurate and incredibly biased; pretty much useless as a source of beliefs regarding Mormonism–to the point that if Ed Decker claims Mormons believe a thing you can be fairly certain that whatever it is Mormons do believe, that ain’t it.

—and the above opinion isn’t held only by Mormons. His works have received scathing reviews by most Christian groups.

Thanks for this! I appreciate the information.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Ed Decker also has a poor reputation among critics of Mormonism.

Much obliged, LJ, that’s good to know.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim Dandy, WOW, very well put. Thank You. Blessings. Garland

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad wrote on the CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) thread:

Which Christian entity regards Mormonism as Christian?

Hmmn. Have you ever heard of the “True Scott” fallacy, Dandy?

[The World Christian Encyclopedia (2001) lists Mormons with JWs and similar organizations as “Marginal Christians.” That’s the only way Mormons and other abberant groups – who claim to be Christian – could be counted.

Well, at least a 'marginal Christian" is still a Christian. You can attach all the adjectives you wish to the word “Christian,” but the word still applies.
[/quote]