Mormon PR Campaign: Do Good Individuals Equal A Good Church?

[dianaiad]

Much obliged, LJ, that’s good to know.

There you go, Mr. Dandy…even LJ disses Decker. It has been my experience that when a believer tells people that a publication is biased, unreliable and (pick a negative adjective), the natural tendency of opponents is to figure that such disaprobation is actually a mark in favor of that publication. However, when an opponent also lets you know that it’s bovine feces…

Thank you, LJ.

 

[LongJourney]

Thank you, LJ.

YW, Diana.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hmmn. Have you ever heard of the “True Scott” fallacy, Dandy?

From Wikipedia:

–quote-- The term [True Scott Fallacy] was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.[1]

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again.” Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing.” The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing.”
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking (1975)

A simpler rendition would be:

Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn’t like haggis!
Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
When the statement “all A are B” is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of “true A”.

An example of a political application of the fallacy would be in asserting that “no democracy starts a war”, then distinguishing between mature or “true” democracies, which never start wars, and “emerging democracies”, which may start them. --end quote–

I’ll phrase my question another way, if you like: Which original Christian entities founded in A.D. 33, or which Christian entities that developed out of the so-called Reformation from the 16th to the 19th century, consider Mormons Christian? Catholic? Orthodox? Baptists? Methodists? Presbyterians? Congregationalists? Episcopalians? etc.

Are you aware that Anthony Flew recently became a Christian? He wrote a book about his conversion. I haven’t read it.

Well, at least a 'marginal Christian" is still a Christian. You can attach all the adjectives you wish to the word “Christian,” but the word still applies.

Again, you don’t understand. The World Christian Encyclopedia is a statistical study. ‘Marginal Christian’ is a category invented by the statisticians for the purpose of counting how many Unitarians, Mormons, JWs, Religious Science, and others there are on the fringe of Christianity that use the name “Christian.” It is not a theological evaluation or a pronouncement of the appropriateness for any of these groups to use the term. The statisticians are merely counting and reporting numbers.

How can a “Marginal Christian” entity be the True Christian Church, as Mormons claim? Preposterous.

Add to all the other proofs against the claims of Mormonism the sciences of archaeology and genetics.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There you go, Mr. Dandy…even LJ disses Decker. It has been my experience that when a believer tells people that a publication is biased, unreliable and (pick a negative adjective), the natural tendency of opponents is to figure that such disaprobation is actually a mark in favor of that publication. However, when an opponent also lets you know that it’s bovine feces…

Thank you, LJ.

To review, I asked Benedict for his source for a quote, and he gave Decker and Hunt’s book, The God Makers. I commented that I have the book and knew Hunt’s scholarship to be questionable, but I knew nothing about Decker. You and LJ provided info on Decker; I thanked you both.

For the record, my criticism of Mormonism is not based on the Decker and Hunt book, which I read long ago and dismissed because of Hunt. I have a number of Mormon publications which I rely upon, including a copy of the 1830 Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, the Inspired Revision of the Authorized (King James) Version by Joseph Smith, and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, among others. I’ve read a heap of books by and about Mormons over the years.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[dazman]

I was a convert to the Mormon church in my very early twenties and became an Elder, Scount Master and so forth I DID ultimately leave and became a ROMAN Catholic but there are a couple of things I think our Church could study, learn, and apply to our Church Body. The program they have for the poor, underemployed and disabled is better than ANY program out there, AND get this- NO FREE RIDES! If you are on the program you do some volunteer work be it on the phone, working at the cannery, on the farm or delivering to shut ins- you do SOMETHING and I can tell you from personal experience- it isn’t some nasty banfg and dent toss offs that you get. The food is A-1 First qualitiy. You go Twice a month You work 2 days and you get enough food for your family to eat- not just gap fillers 3 meals a day.
Mothers ARE encouraged to be stay at home Moms.I know I will get some hate mail on this but come on, Anyone who thinks childrearing is a Part time job are kidding themselves and robbing the children. We ALL LOOSE.

I think any assistance a church can contribute to others is very important and the program you mention is very good news for the less fortunate and disadvantaged.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I think any assistance a church can contribute to others is very important and the program you mention is very good news for the less fortunate and disadvantaged.

These programs pookiebear364 wrote about are restricted to Mormons – unless they’ve changed.

The Catholic Church is the largest provider of social services – food, shelter, medical care, whatever is needed – in the world, in every country. No restrictions as to religion or ethnicity. U.S. Government aid pales by comparison.

 

[Todd520]

These programs pookiebear364 wrote about are restricted to Mormons – unless they’ve changed.

The Catholic Church is the largest provider of social services – food, shelter, medical care, whatever is needed – in the world, in every country. No restrictions as to religion or ethnicity. U.S. Government aid pales by comparison.

Hi Jim, you are wrong on one point and right on the other

LDS programs are available to non-LDS. But as pookie pointed out, there is an expectation of some volunteer work for the able bodied.

The CC is an enormous provided of social services across the world, with no expectations of volunteer work, etc.
My mother used to run the soup kitchen at our parish.
I have nothing but respect for Catholic works in social services!

 

[dianaiad]

<snip wiki entry on definition of the ‘true scott’ fallacy’>

I’m glad to see that you looked it up. Did you see how it applied to your post…and definition of “Christian?”

I’ll phrase my question another way, if you like: Which original Christian entities founded in A.D. 33, or which Christian entities that developed out of the so-called Reformation from the 16th to the 19th century, consider Mormons Christian? Catholic? Orthodox? Baptists? Methodists? Presbyterians? Congregationalists? Episcopalians? etc.

Quite a few, actually… however, the word ‘Christian’ does have a specific meaning in the English language, one that encompases us. If everyone bought into the definition you have, which seems to be either "he who believes the truth about Jesus Christ’ (that’s the charitable view) or "He who agrees with me about religious doctrine (which seems to be the more standard view) then we have a problem. In the first instance, about the only Christians being those who believe the truth, then we none of us are; NONE of us know all the truth about God or His Son; our minds aren’t able to encompass it. If we go on a scale, that is…you have to know a certain amount of truth, and the more truth you know the more Christian you are, then we are the Christians, and you fall somewhere down the spectrum from us.

If the definition is “he who believes the same thing I do,” then everybody who claims to be a Christian must acknowledge his or her unique standing as the only Christian on the planet–since we all have slightly different beliefs–some differing greatly, some in very minor things.

Either way, it leaves me the Christian and you----not.

So it’s a very good thing that the word ‘Christian’ has a specific definition in the English language that includes all of us, isn’t it?

All the above may be fun, but I have a question to ask you. Why is it so important to you that Mormons not be allowed to call themselves, or to be thought of as, 'Christians"?

I know why I believe I am, and I know why I get—annoyed–when people start telling me that I’m not, and that I have no right to think of my self as one, but what’s your reason?

…and no, don’t go to the ‘we have different beliefs.’ Why does that matter? What does denying our Christianity allow you to do, and think?

Are you aware that Anthony Flew recently became a Christian? He wrote a book about his conversion. I haven’t read it.

Actually, he did not. He became a Deist, though.

Again, you don’t understand. The World Christian Encyclopedia is a statistical study. ‘Marginal Christian’ is a category invented by the statisticians for the purpose of counting how many Unitarians, Mormons, JWs, Religious Science, and others there are on the fringe of Christianity that use the name “Christian.” It is not a theological evaluation or a pronouncement of the appropriateness for any of these groups to use the term. The statisticians are merely counting and reporting numbers.

How can a “Marginal Christian” entity be the True Christian Church, as Mormons claim? Preposterous.

Add to all the other proofs against the claims of Mormonism the sciences of archaeology and genetics.

Peace, Jim Dandy

(grin)

Jim Dandy, I don’t have a bit of problem using 'Marginal Christian"…because if the ‘margin’ is true and the ‘center’ isn’t, then the margin is the best place to be–just as, back in the 60’s, it was the geologists on the margin who combined the old theory of continental drift and techtonic plate theory to explain earthquakes. A very marginal theory…that happened to be the right one.

Mormons are not Orthodox Christians, or orthodox Christians. We are not Trinitarian Christians, or fundamentalist Christians, or a whole bunch of other adjectives. We certainly don’t pretend to be mainstream–we’re simply Christians. Our own brand–and we beleive that it is the most true version.

As, I would sincerely hope, you believe your version of Christianity is the most true one.

 

[dianaiad]

These programs pookiebear364 wrote about are restricted to Mormons – unless they’ve changed.

The Catholic Church is the largest provider of social services – food, shelter, medical care, whatever is needed – in the world, in every country. No restrictions as to religion or ethnicity. U.S. Government aid pales by comparison.

I would certainly HOPE so, Dandy…there are a whole bunch more of you–about a billion Catholics in the world, compared to 14 million of us.

This would rather demand that the total of Catholic aid to others be 72 times as much as LDS aid to others–not counting aid to Catholics specifically, such as church schools, etc.

Is it?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hi Jim, you are wrong on one point and right on the other

LDS programs are available to non-LDS. But as pookie pointed out, there is an expectation of some volunteer work for the able bodied.

The CC is an enormous provided of social services across the world, with no expectations of volunteer work, etc.
My mother used to run the soup kitchen at our parish.
I have nothing but respect for Catholic works in social services!

These programs – and working in the Mormon cannery – were not available to non-Mormons years ago when I was considering Mormonism. When did this change? How would a non-Mormon know he or she could receive help through a Mormon program? For example, hungry and needy people know they can go to St. Vincent de Paul for help the world over, regardless of religion or ethnicity. There are no questions asked. How would they know the Mormon doors are open to them? It certainly is not commonly known.

 

[dianaiad]

These programs – and working in the Mormon cannery – were not available to non-Mormons years ago when I was considering Mormonism. When did this change? How would a non-Mormon know he or she could receive help through a Mormon program? For example, hungry and needy people know they can go to St. Vincent de Paul for help the world over, regardless of religion or ethnicity. There are no questions asked. How would they know the Mormon doors are open to them? It certainly is not commonly known.

…and the hungry and the needy in Haiti and other places can and do go to LDS services for food and other things. There are programs that are for LDS specifically (though I have seen non-LDS get them) and there are programs that are for others. As I wrote above, the Catholics would have to provide 72 times the amount of aid to others that Mormons do, per capita, to be able to look down their noses at us. So.

Do you?

I don’t honestly know. I’m simply asking you to go look and see before you assume that Mormons are all that uncharitable and mean-sprited in comparison, Dandy.

 

[benidict]

benidict;7092002:

Thanks! I have the book, but I haven’t reread it recently. Do you know the page number? Dave Hunt is a notoriously anti-Catholic (as well as anti-Mormon) writer whose scholarship is questionable. I haven’t any info about Ed Decker.

sorry i dont. its been years since i read it. and i was a protestant when i did. but if hes of the jack chic variety, then id take dianas word over his any day. never read any of his anti Catholic literature. if i ever need a good laugh, maybe i will…Peace

 

[cthulhubryan]

These programs – and working in the Mormon cannery – were not available to non-Mormons years ago when I was considering Mormonism. When did this change? How would a non-Mormon know he or she could receive help through a Mormon program? For example, hungry and needy people know they can go to St. Vincent de Paul for help the world over, regardless of religion or ethnicity. There are no questions asked. How would they know the Mormon doors are open to them? It certainly is not commonly known.

When I lived in SLC it was common to see all manner of street people getting off the bus there as other cities in the region would give them one way tickets knowing that the LDS church would take care of them.

 

[JeanMichel]

…and the hungry and the needy in Haiti and other places can and do go to LDS services for food and other things. There are programs that are for LDS specifically (though I have seen non-LDS get them) and there are programs that are for others. As I wrote above, the Catholics would have to provide 72 times the amount of aid to others that Mormons do, per capita, to be able to look down their noses at us. So.

Do you?

I don’t honestly know. I’m simply asking you to go look and see before you assume that Mormons are all that uncharitable and mean-sprited in comparison, Dandy.

I have read that the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church have often worked in unison to care for the poor and afflicted during major disasters in the world. These are the pure moments when differences are set aside and the Spirit of Christ reigns supreme.

From what I read the Catholic Church has a much better network of distribution throughout the world and the Mormon Church has the food stuffs and other goods on short notice. The Mormons provided the food and the Catholic Church could act quickly to get the food and other stuff to those in need the quickest.

 

[dianaiad]

I have read that the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church have often worked in unison to care for the poor and afflicted during major disasters in the world. These are the pure moments when differences are set aside and the Spirit of Christ reigns supreme.

From what I read the Catholic Church has a much better network of distribution throughout the world and the Mormon Church has the food stuffs and other goods on short notice. The Mormons provided the food and the Catholic Church could act quickly to get the food and other stuff to those in need the quickest.

Given the way we work, that actually makes sense–and yes, I am aware that we work with Catholic Charities quite frequently.

 

[Pahoran]

These programs pookiebear364 wrote about are restricted to Mormons – unless they’ve changed.

These programs have never been “restricted to Mormons” in my lifetime.

I’m in my fifties.

I don’t know about before my lifetime, and I haven’t bothered to find out.

As to the attempt to define Mormons out of Christianity: that has been dealt with, decisively, in this book, Offenders for a Word.

Quite an apt title, really.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[BartBurk]

It depends what you mean by a good church. I would say good people definitely contribute to a good church. It’s one of the reasons I liked being a Mormon – I liked the people. It seemed a much tighter community than any Catholic parish I have seen.

 

[Holly3278]

Not necessarily. My Grandpa is a person I would consider to be a good person but yet he is an Atheist. So I would say that just because someone is a good person it does not mean that their membership in a certain church would make that church any better. Likewise, just because someone is a good person does not mean that their beliefs are correct or orthodox.

 

[dianaiad]

Not necessarily. My Grandpa is a person I would consider to be a good person but yet he is an Atheist. So I would say that just because someone is a good person it does not mean that their membership in a certain church would make that church any better. Likewise, just because someone is a good person does not mean that their beliefs are correct or orthodox.

…and yet, and yet…

“By their fruits ye shall know them.”

 

[BartBurk]

…and yet, and yet…

“By their fruits ye shall know them.”

Churches which sincerely follow Christ have good fruits. The “fruits” do not validate a claim for one or the other of them being the one true church. That test can only take you part of the way, not all of the way towards finding the truth. It would be hard for any church to match the following:

youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w