Mormon Prayer List?

[CJ_Nick]

Putting your dad’s name on the LDS prayer roll is unlikely to do him much good if it is not accompanied by faith on your part or his part. Catholics are good people, but they are inclined towards superstition; and superstition is not a substitute for faith.

zerinus

Hi zerinus

I can’t help but wonder if your contibution to the OP ( who’s father was diagnosed with lung cancer ) was intended to sound so cold.

OP, Count me in on the prayers for your Father

Peace,
CJ

 

[zerinus]

Hi zerinus

I can’t help but wonder if your contibution to the OP ( who’s father was diagnosed with lung cancer ) was intended to sound so cold.

OP, Count me in on the prayers for your Father

Peace,
CJ

I was addressing her query, not her concern. If I wanted to sound cold, I could have tried something along these lines:

Matthew 8:

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

zerinus

 

[CJ_Nick]

I was addressing her query, not her concern. If I wanted to sound cold, I could have tried something along these lines:

Matthew 8:

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

zerinus

CJ

 

[PaulDupre]

As for proxy baptisms, more is required than a name, even a ‘full’ name. What is needed for that is the date of birth, death, proof of existence, and an LDS relative doing the submitting.

Adolf Hitler has LDS relatives?? The LDS have done proxy baptism, endowment and sealing for Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun several times over. The point is that the LDS organization does data mining of all kinds to get names for proxy temple work. No relative is needed. Your claim is good PR, but not true.

I am having problems believing the attitude I see on this thread: those who would refuse even to have faithful believing people pray for them, even if their beliefs are different, indicates a degree of hate and fear that is very worrying.

Not hate, but lack of trust, with very good reason. Witness the Jews who are outraged that their deceased relatives have been baptized and endowed without their permission. I don’t believe for a moment that all those millions of victims of the holocaust that have been dead-dunked had LDS relatives submit their names.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

CJ

 

[dianaiad]

If someone offered to sacrifice a baby to their god for you would you say sure, any prayer is a good prayer? I’m guessing not. Furthermore would you call denying the request hate? Again, I would guess not. As Catholics we believe what Mormons do is sinful. So by denying the offer for a prayer, what one is really saying is please don’t sin because of me. There is no hate involved we are just firm in our faith.

You are honestly equating the inclusion of a name in a prayer list with sacrificing a baby?

I was right.

You guys are nuts.

 

[dianaiad]

Adolf Hitler has LDS relatives?? The LDS have done proxy baptism, endowment and sealing for Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun several times over. The point is that the LDS organization does data mining of all kinds to get names for proxy temple work. No relative is needed. Your claim is good PR, but not true.

Sorry, but yes, one needs to be a relative, and you’d be surprised at who has relatives.
Pretty much everybody does, y’know.

Not hate, but lack of trust, with very good reason. Witness the Jews who are outraged that their deceased relatives have been baptized and endowed without their permission. I don’t believe for a moment that all those millions of victims of the holocaust that have been dead-dunked had LDS relatives submit their names.

Paul

No, they didn’t. THAT was a very misplaced attempt on the part of certain LDS people who honestly thought to honor the Jewish dead. From THEIR pov it was an honor.It was stopped.

Remember, in our view such a work is a choice offered, not a 'you’re a Mormon will you, nil you."

Intention is everything. We, who believe in free will, understand that nothing we do has any effect on the dead unless the dead WANT it to have an effect. THEIR choice.

…andif we are wrong, then it doesn’t have any effect at all, whether the dead would choose to accept it or not.

I honestly do not understand the problem. I don’t.
If a Catholic decided to do a proxy baptism for ME, wouldn’t bug me a bit. The thing about proxy anything is that the person for whom the work is done, whether that is proxy baptism…or a proxy wedding (still done) or proxy bidding at an auction, or proxy stock buying, or proxy anything else that is commonly done on this very mortal world…HAS TO AGREE AND ACCEPT it before it is valid.

If he or she does not, it’s paperwork for the shredder–of no force and effect. If WE believe that, the folks that are doing it, how can anybody else possibly believe that it makes any difference to their dead?

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe folks are afraid that, once dead and in the spirit world, their ancestors might actually (gasp) accept the offer, and then what? So the living decide that they will make the decision FOR them. After all, they’re dead; they can’t make decisions, or think, or learn anything, or could possibly know what they want better than those still alive do.

Oh.

Wait.

There’s a problem with that sort of thinking. I wonder what it could possibly be?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sorry, but yes, one needs to be a relative, and you’d be surprised at who has relatives.
Pretty much everybody does, y’know.

No, they didn’t. THAT was a very misplaced attempt on the part of certain LDS people who honestly thought to honor the Jewish dead. From THEIR pov it was an honor.It was stopped.

Remember, in our view such a work is a choice offered, not a 'you’re a Mormon will you, nil you."

Intention is everything. We, who believe in free will, understand that nothing we do has any effect on the dead unless the dead WANT it to have an effect. THEIR choice.

…andif we are wrong, then it doesn’t have any effect at all, whether the dead would choose to accept it or not.

I honestly do not understand the problem. I don’t.
If a Catholic decided to do a proxy baptism for ME, wouldn’t bug me a bit. The thing about proxy anything is that the person for whom the work is done, whether that is proxy baptism…**or a proxy wedding (still done) or proxy bidding at an auction, or proxy stock buying, or proxy anything else that is commonly done on this very mortal world…HAS TO AGREE AND ACCEPT it before it is valid. **

If he or she does not, it’s paperwork for the shredder–of no force and effect. If WE believe that, the folks that are doing it, how can anybody else possibly believe that it makes any difference to their dead?

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe folks are afraid that, once dead and in the spirit world, their ancestors might actually (gasp) accept the offer, and then what? So the living decide that they will make the decision FOR them. After all, they’re dead; they can’t make decisions, or think, or learn anything, or could possibly know what they want better than those still alive do.

Oh.

Wait.

There’s a problem with that sort of thinking. I wonder what it could possibly be?

But in all those proxies you mentioned, the agreement has to be made and the proxy designated by the person before the act is committed. In other words I request proxy work in my name people don’t just proxy bid or wed in my name. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[tundramom]

No, they didn’t. THAT was a very misplaced attempt on the part of certain LDS people who honestly thought to honor the Jewish dead. From THEIR pov it was an honor.It was stopped.

Remember, in our view such a work is a choice offered, not a 'you’re a Mormon will you, nil you."

Intention is everything. We, who believe in free will, understand that nothing we do has any effect on the dead unless the dead WANT it to have an effect. THEIR choice.

…andif we are wrong, then it doesn’t have any effect at all, whether the dead would choose to accept it or not.

I honestly do not understand the problem. I don’t.
If a Catholic decided to do a proxy baptism for ME, wouldn’t bug me a bit. The thing about proxy anything is that the person for whom the work is done, whether that is proxy baptism…or a proxy wedding (still done) or proxy bidding at an auction, or proxy stock buying, or proxy anything else that is commonly done on this very mortal world…HAS TO AGREE AND ACCEPT it before it is valid.

…and it sure keeps the workers busy if you get all those names.
And we, who believe in free will, understand that.

in Christ
Steph

 

[tundramom]

I just had another thought…

If one gives permission with full name for addition to the prayer… wouldn’t that be a relative giving permission??? Yup. I can see that.

Then a temple worker could just use a handy dandy family database to find all those relatives. You know, the ones that are so helpful? Like ancestors.com et al. Not to mention the family history library that has such a large database.

Helpful for those who want to find out their own family tree, sure… but I don’t doubt there’s a few of those “well meaning” members who use it to gather information and since someone is always related to someone else. Well, there’s the permission.

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

I just had another thought…

If one gives permission with full name for addition to the prayer… wouldn’t that be a relative giving permission??? Yup. I can see that.

It is a relative giving permission for us to pray for him. That’s it.
Look, I’m not in the mood for this incredible paranoia. I’m not amused, and it ain’t funny.

 

[dianaiad]

I just had another thought…

If one gives permission with full name for addition to the prayer… wouldn’t that be a relative giving permission??? Yup. I can see that.

Then a temple worker could just use a handy dandy family database to find all those relatives. You know, the ones that are so helpful? Like ancestors.com et al. Not to mention the family history library that has such a large database.

Helpful for those who want to find out their own family tree, sure… but I don’t doubt there’s a few of those “well meaning” members who use it to gather information and since someone is always related to someone else. Well, there’s the permission.

in Christ
Steph

Steph…and I’m very certain all those black helicopters that are parked in the Temple basement are just fueled and waiting to come kidnap your daughter, plug her in the Temple towers awaiting her polygamous bride groom to ravish her innocence, providing she doesn’t have the courage to dive out of the temple window into the Great Salt Lake and wait for a passing ship to rescue her and take her to Seattle.

(I’m not kidding, there were people who used to believe that, too!)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Steph…and I’m very certain all those black helicopters that are parked in the Temple basement are just fueled and waiting to come kidnap your daughter, plug her in the Temple towers awaiting her polygamous bride groom to ravish her innocence, providing she doesn’t have the courage to dive out of the temple window into the Great Salt Lake and wait for a passing ship to rescue her and take her to Seattle.

(I’m not kidding, there were people who used to believe that, too!)

Whatever, my parents do name extraction for the LDS church, where they take microfilmed records and enter them into a LDS database. These names are submitted to your temples, no links to living mormon relatives required. My parents use a lds website that requires logging in, and the login comes down the food chain. No outside access, so no one can see what you are doing and complain.

 

[tundramom]

I did the name extraction thing too RebeccaJ. I just couldn’t remember what it was called. That was very early on and I didn’t have a computer at home so I went to the church to do it in their library.

in Christ
Steph

 

[RebeccaJ]

I did the name extraction thing too RebeccaJ. I just couldn’t remember what it was called. That was very early on and I didn’t have a computer at home so I went to the church to do it in their library.

in Christ
Steph

the website for extraction is very recent, not to long ago they used a DOS program, and someone brought around printed out records that they entered using this DOS program, which was then saved on a floppy drive, picked up by the same person, where it eventually made its way into a main database. the website shortcuts all that.

BTW, primarily they are using Catholic and Anglican parish records. So the mormons have already baptized by proxy thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, deceased Catholics.

 

[tundramom]

Yup. I remember the discs. That’s how we did it. I seem to remember we kept them in the library at the church… can’t remember a lot of the details, but I could type fast so that was the job I was given to work off the welfare that my Mom received after Dad died and she was going to school. Man that was a looooong time ago.

in Christ
Steph

 

[linuxgeek71]

You are honestly equating the inclusion of a name in a prayer list with sacrificing a baby?

I was right.

You guys are nuts.

You miss the point entirely. The point was not all prayer is good prayer. I had to pick something you would for certain find to be a bad prayer. Was it really that unclear of a point?

 

[why_me]

hi whyme, long time no see.

The OP can do whatever they like. I just don’t see the point in adding a Catholic person’s name to a mormon rite that we view as invalid at best.

Prayer is never invalid. Would I say to a Mormon or a catholic, please don’t pray for me because your prayer is invalid?

I have been around but not on this board. The mormons here are doing a good job in defending the lds church. I can take a back seat and let the lds experts have their say.

 

[dianaiad]

Whatever, my parents do name extraction for the LDS church, where they take microfilmed records and enter them into a LDS database. These names are submitted to your temples, no links to living mormon relatives required. My parents use a lds website that requires logging in, and the login comes down the food chain. No outside access, so no one can see what you are doing and complain.

Yes, an LDS website that requires logging in; your parents are doing genealogy work for THEIR ancestors.

 

[dianaiad]

You miss the point entirely. The point was not all prayer is good prayer. I had to pick something you would for certain find to be a bad prayer. Was it really that unclear of a point?

No, your point was not a bit unclear. You made it perfectly—but it was a ‘Catholics are cannabals’ sort of point, wasn’t it? In fact, it was right out of the “Protocols of the Elders of Israel” playbook; a large scale equivocation.

Look; here is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of PRAYER.

prayer is: 1. a. A solemn request to God, a god, or other object of worship; a supplication or thanksgiving addressed to God or a god.c. In pl. Requests to God or a god to bless and protect someone; (hence) sincere good wishes

Please note; there is nothing in there that talks about killing babies, or even scattering water or smoke from a burning candle. Nothing but words/request/supplication/thanksgiving. .

Sacrifice is something altogether ELSE. It MIGHT go along with prayer, and usually does…but it is separate FROM prayer alone and can be done without prayer, as prayer can be done without sacrifice, and usually is.

So yeah. I got your point. It was irrelevant. We aren’t offering to sacrifice babies, or even scatter water or offer grain.

It’s quite a sweeping and condemnatory rejection, not only of our doctrine, but of us as people, neighbors, friends. It’s about as thorough as you can get, frankly. I don’t know about you, but I am not so arrogant, superior, know it all or anything else to think that I don’t need all the help I can get–and of all the people in the world that I would figure would get THAT idea, it is a people who will ask the dead to pray for them.

But you get insulted if a Mormon offers. You can’t get a more complete rejection of us as people than that, you really can’t.