Mormon Prayer List?

[Tonks40]

Thanks everyone for the replies, insight, perspectives, and most of all, prayers. Just for the record…I thanked my friend for all the private prayers he and his family have been offering on behalf of my father. I never gave him permission to place my father’s name on the list (never gave him my father’s full name, either)…and because of our long friendship & history together (both the ups and the downs), my friend completely understood.

We have novenas going for my dad, and our intentions for him are prayed for at Mass every day. During this trial, he’s been praying the Rosary daily, and this week he’s managed to make to Mass a couple of times. We also see the mercy and grace of our Lord’s effects on him through the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

I feel as a practicing Catholic, prudence must used in a situation like this. It is not, as some have suggested on this thread, a rejection of a person as a whole…I don’t think my Mormon friend held this perception. He understands the differences between our two faiths, and respect my position on it, as I respect his. But it doesn’t mean that I have to compromise my own beliefs to “get all the help I can get.” In my view, as a Catholic, the Communion of Saints and petitions directly to Our Lord through Jesus Christ is as powerful and profound as one can get.

My dad knows Who he worships and honors. And I am happy and willing to adhere to it.

God Bless!
Tonks40

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, an LDS website that requires logging in; your parents are doing genealogy work for THEIR ancestors.

hi Diana, yeah they do that too, using PAF.

The extraction work they do for the LDS church is a calling. They’ve been doing it for years. I have helped them numerous times with the program, and they have shown me what they do and how they do it. So no, it isn’t their own ancestors they are working on. They are working on entering thousands of names taken from records that the LDS church has rounded up from different places. For example, for a while they worked on entering information from German parish records. Pages and pages of entering names, locations, dates, all grouped in households.

You can volunteer too. Here are the projects they are working on now.

familysearchindexing.org/projects/current_projects.jsf

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks everyone for the replies, insight, perspectives, and most of all, prayers. Just for the record…I thanked my friend for all the private prayers he and his family have been offering on behalf of my father. I never gave him permission to place my father’s name on the list (never gave him my father’s full name, either)…and because of our long friendship & history together (both the ups and the downs), my friend completely understood.

We have novenas going for my dad, and our intentions for him are prayed for at Mass every day. During this trial, he’s been praying the Rosary daily, and this week he’s managed to make to Mass a couple of times. We also see the mercy and grace of our Lord’s effects on him through the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

I feel as a practicing Catholic, prudence must used in a situation like this. It is not, as some have suggested on this thread, a rejection of a person as a whole…I don’t think my Mormon friend held this perception. He understands the differences between our two faiths, and respect my position on it, as I respect his. But it doesn’t mean that I have to compromise my own beliefs to “get all the help I can get.” In my view, as a Catholic, the Communion of Saints and petitions directly to Our Lord through Jesus Christ is as powerful and profound as one can get.

My dad knows Who he worships and honors. And I am happy and willing to adhere to it.

God Bless!
Tonks40

Glad to hear your update.

 

[twopekinguys]

Sorry, but yes, one needs to be a relative, and you’d be surprised at who has relatives.
Pretty much everybody does, y’know.

No, they didn’t. THAT was a very misplaced attempt on the part of certain LDS people who honestly thought to honor the Jewish dead. From THEIR pov it was an honor.It was stopped.

Remember, in our view such a work is a choice offered, not a 'you’re a Mormon will you, nil you."

Intention is everything. We, who believe in free will, understand that nothing we do has any effect on the dead unless the dead WANT it to have an effect. THEIR choice.

…andif we are wrong, then it doesn’t have any effect at all, whether the dead would choose to accept it or not.

I honestly do not understand the problem. I don’t.
If a Catholic decided to do a proxy baptism for ME, wouldn’t bug me a bit. The thing about proxy anything is that the person for whom the work is done, whether that is proxy baptism…or a proxy wedding (still done) or proxy bidding at an auction, or proxy stock buying, or proxy anything else that is commonly done on this very mortal world…HAS TO AGREE AND ACCEPT it before it is valid.

If he or she does not, it’s paperwork for the shredder–of no force and effect. If WE believe that, the folks that are doing it, how can anybody else possibly believe that it makes any difference to their dead?

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe folks are afraid that, once dead and in the spirit world, their ancestors might actually (gasp) accept the offer, and then what? So the living decide that they will make the decision FOR them. After all, they’re dead; they can’t make decisions, or think, or learn anything, or could possibly know what they want better than those still alive do.

Oh.

Wait.

There’s a problem with that sort of thinking. I wonder what it could possibly be?

I have to disagree with you on this.

You should read the timeline of events involving the baptism of deceased Jews.

jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html (make sure you check out the bottom of the page, and do a search like it suggests)

or

msnbc.msn.com/id/27647809/from/ET/

I think you’ll find it interesting. For me, the most interesting part is that the leadership of your church signed an agreement in 1995 to discontinue this practice, but has done nothing of substance to do so.

With regard to you not seeing it as a big deal, you need to realize even a good deed can be offensive.

Would you offer your living jewish neighbor a rack of BBQ pork ribs? I don’t think so.

Even though you would mean well in offering them something to eat, you wouldn’t do it because you know eating pork is against their beliefs and traditions.

Why not show them the same respect for their beliefs and traditions after they have passed away?

Most of the mormons I know are very proud to be able to trace their mormon roots back as far as they can. Jews feel the same way.

Everyone of every faith wants *their *faith respected, and if I’m correct, that is even in your Doctrines and Covenants.

 

[dianaiad]

I have to disagree with you on this.

You should read the timeline of events involving the baptism of deceased Jews.

jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html (make sure you check out the bottom of the page, and do a search like it suggests)

or

msnbc.msn.com/id/27647809/from/ET/

I think you’ll find it interesting. For me, the most interesting part is that the leadership of your church signed an agreement in 1995 to discontinue this practice, but has done nothing of substance to do so.

With regard to you not seeing it as a big deal, you need to realize even a good deed can be offensive.

Would you offer your living jewish neighbor a rack of BBQ pork ribs? I don’t think so.[/qoute]

No. But I WOULD offer him a copy of the Book of Mormon and a visit from the missionaries, which is all this proxy work is, when it comes down to it.
twopekinguys;4906809:

Even though you would mean well in offering them something to eat, you wouldn’t do it because you know eating pork is against their beliefs and traditions.

It is not against their beliefs and traditions to knock on their door and offer to share the gospel with them–offer them missionary lessons, a copy of the Book of Mormon, whatever; and then take THEIR ‘no thank you’ for an answer. Not their daughter’s “no thank you,” not their grandchild’s ‘no thank you,’ THEIRS.

Why not show them the same respect for their beliefs and traditions after they have passed away?

We are. If knocking on their doors and offering missionary lessons is not showing disrespect, then neither is this.

Most of the mormons I know are very proud to be able to trace their mormon roots back as far as they can. Jews feel the same way.

Everyone of every faith wants *their *

faith respected, and if I’m correct, that is even in your Doctrines and Covenants.

And we do. Offering them a chance to learn about our faith is NOT being disrespectful to theirs.

 

[twopekinguys]

Offer it to them when they’re living. Not when they’re dead.

Not everyone views this the same way the mormons do, and by ignoring that fact, your are in fact disrespecting their religion

I just think mormons need to take into consideration the feelings and beliefs of these people. That is what you expect of others isn’t it?

 

[dianaiad]

Offer it to them when they’re living. Not when they’re dead.

Not everyone views this the same way the mormons do, and by ignoring that fact, your are in fact disrespecting their religion

I just think mormons need to take into consideration the feelings and beliefs of these people. That is what you expect of others isn’t it?

There is, as far as I am aware, NO religion that has, in its basic doctrine/tenets that says the living have the right to make decisions for their dead. Quite the opposite; those who have any opinion about the dead generally figure that those who have passed on are in a better position to know what to do than the living are. Many, many faiths honor and pray to their dead for guidance.

I don’t know a single religion that demotes their dead to infantile idiocy by virtue of their having died.

Yet when push comes to shove, they show disrespect to their own beliefs by insisting that THEY, the living, have the right to decide what their ancestor’s will be offered, and what their decisions would be.

Now, how on earth can you honor your ancestors, and in some cases pray to them for intervention or action, and at the same time consider that you have the right to make decisions like this for them?

 

[twopekinguys]

There is, as far as I am aware, NO religion that has, in its basic doctrine/tenets that says the living have the right to make decisions for their dead. But the mormons have that right?Quite the opposite; those who have any opinion about the dead generally figure that those who have passed on are in a better position to know what to do than the living are. Many, many faiths honor and pray to their dead for guidance.

I don’t know a single religion that demotes their dead to infantile idiocy by virtue of their having died.

Yet when push comes to shove, they show disrespect to their own beliefs by insisting that THEY, the living, have the right to decide what their ancestor’s will be offered, and what their decisions would be. Maybe they are excersing their religous beliefs for their ancestors like the mormons are pushing on their ancestors.

Now, how on earth can you honor your ancestors, and in some cases pray to them for intervention or action, and at the same time consider that you have the right to make decisions like this for them?

We honor our ancestors by honoring the decision(s) they made while living.

If you could, could you please address what I posted earlier about the leaders of your church not abiding by the agreement they signed in 1995.

Here is a link to the actual document signed by members of your church leadership.

avotaynu.com/mormons/MormonAgreement.pdf

The agreement clearly states that the practice was wrong, and any further submissions of jewish haulocaust deaths would not be appropriate or allowed, yet there have been continual submissions since the 1995 agreement.

If you leadership thinks its wrong to baptize these people after they have died, then theoretically that could apply to all groups. It’s just a matter of those religous groups coming forward like the jews.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you do a generic search described in the original link I posted, you will see that these baptisms continue.

 

[tundramom]

Thanks everyone for the replies, insight, perspectives, and most of all, prayers. Just for the record…I thanked my friend for all the private prayers he and his family have been offering on behalf of my father. I never gave him permission to place my father’s name on the list (never gave him my father’s full name, either)…and because of our long friendship & history together (both the ups and the downs), my friend completely understood.

We have novenas going for my dad, and our intentions for him are prayed for at Mass every day. During this trial, he’s been praying the Rosary daily, and this week he’s managed to make to Mass a couple of times. We also see the mercy and grace of our Lord’s effects on him through the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

I feel as a practicing Catholic, prudence must used in a situation like this. It is not, as some have suggested on this thread, a rejection of a person as a whole…I don’t think my Mormon friend held this perception. He understands the differences between our two faiths, and respect my position on it, as I respect his. But it doesn’t mean that I have to compromise my own beliefs to “get all the help I can get.” In my view, as a Catholic, the Communion of Saints and petitions directly to Our Lord through Jesus Christ is as powerful and profound as one can get.

My dad knows Who he worships and honors. And I am happy and willing to adhere to it.

God Bless!
Tonks40

Thanks Tonks40 for this update. I’m so happy that he was able to make it to Mass twice! Don’t forget to ask for communion brought to him or if you’re able to, you can bring it to him yourself.

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

We honor our ancestors by honoring the decision(s) they made while living.

No, to answer a question in red that you included in the quote…Mormons do NOT have the right to make decisions for the dead. but we aren’t the ones doing that, are we? YOU are, when you forbid proxy work. It should be their choice whether to accept or reject it, and you are refusing them the chance to say ‘no.’

Or, more frightening to you, prehaps, to say ‘yes.’

If you could, could you please address what I posted earlier about the leaders of your church not abiding by the agreement they signed in 1995.

Here is a link to the actual document signed by members of your church leadership.

avotaynu.com/mormons/MormonAgreement.pdf

The agreement clearly states that the practice was wrong, and any further submissions of jewish haulocaust deaths would not be appropriate or allowed, yet there have been continual submissions since the 1995 agreement.

Actually, no. there have been submissions of Holocaust dead…but not deliberately so, and by relatives. Not to mention that it is NOT POSSIBLE to police this as completely as you guys think we can. Why you can’t get the idea that we do NOT march in step I’ll never know!

If you leadership thinks its wrong to baptize these people after they have died, then theoretically that could apply to all groups. It’s just a matter of those religous groups coming forward like the jews.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you do a generic search described in the original link I posted, you will see that these baptisms continue.

this is a specific group that was addressed with the best of motives; the Mormons were so horrified that they wanted to do something, no matter how odd it might seem to others, to bring them the opportunity that they were robbed of; to hear the gospel of Christ. The problem is that we truly do want to deal with our own ancestors first, and very few Mormons have Holocaust relatives; jumping the queue like that IS a bit of a stretch, and could honestly be seen to be inappropriate.

And no, it does not go to other religions or groups, especially when the person submitting the name IS a relative. After all, if you think you have the right to take that decision away from your dead grand/folks, why doesn’t another relative have the right to offer the choice?

Remember. It IS a choice, not a fait accompli, a commandment, or binding in any way unless the person upon whose behalf this work is done WANTS it.

As for 'honoring the decisions they made in life…" C’mon. Just how many people who have ever lived have heard of Jesus Christ, never mind of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do you really think it is fair to condemn someone for a decision they made when they didn’t have the data?

That’s not ‘honoring’ your ancestor’s choices. That’s refusing to let them MAKE one.

 

[Ross09]

What I see as different between the Catholic belief in God and what Dianaid is describing is Catholic teaching does not include God condemning people who, through no fault of their own, could not hear the true Gospel of Jesus.
We believe our God is all powerful and all knowing, thus capable of knowing whether or not a person would choose the truth if they had the chance and then grant that person salvation based on His wisdom and judgment. He knows us, so He will deal with us justly in the afterlife. We trust in His power and mercy.

 

[twopekinguys]

And no, it does not go to other religions or groups, especially when the person submitting the name IS a relative. After all, if you think you have the right to take that decision away from your dead grand/folks, why doesn’t another relative have the right to offer the choice?

Remember. It IS a choice, not a fait accompli, a commandment, or binding in any way unless the person upon whose behalf this work is done WANTS it.

As for 'honoring the decisions they made in life…" C’mon. Just how many people who have ever lived have heard of Jesus Christ, never mind of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do you really think it is fair to condemn someone for a decision they made when they didn’t have the data?

That’s not ‘honoring’ your ancestor’s choices. That’s refusing to let them MAKE one.

You’re trying to have it both ways on this issue, and that really doesn’t wash.

On one hand you’re saying it’s ok for family members to submit the names of deceased relatives for proxy baptisms. Then, on the other hand, you say that family cannot stop the process.

For one, my grandfather was a very prominent and well respected Presbyterian minister, so I do believe he did make his choice, and it is up to me, and other members of our family to make sure that decision stands.

Have you ever heard the term, May they rest in peace?

By the way, we do have temple recommend holding mormons in our family, and we have had this discussion at length with them. Trust me, they know better than to even attempt something like this. Unlike many mormons, they actually see where the whole process could be contsrued as offensive, not only to our family, but others.

I also believe that many mormons who do this, don’t really care about the individual they are standing in for, but are merely looking at numbers for the church, and a feather in their own cap.

 

[Tonks40]

Thanks Tonks40 for this update. I’m so happy that he was able to make it to Mass twice! Don’t forget to ask for communion brought to him or if you’re able to, you can bring it to him yourself.

in Christ
Steph

We have a built-in EMHC in our family - my mom! She’s taken communion to him several times already - even brought him ashes on Ash Wednesday

 

[tundramom]

We have a built-in EMHC in our family - my mom! She’s taken communion to him several times already - even brought him ashes on Ash Wednesday

Oh that’s awesome! I was able to bring communion to the hospital on a few occasions. Usually our Priest does this, but once in awhile he asks for help. It was such an honor!

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

What I see as different between the Catholic belief in God and what Dianaid is describing is Catholic teaching does not include God condemning people who, through no fault of their own, could not hear the true Gospel of Jesus.
We believe our God is all powerful and all knowing, thus capable of knowing whether or not a person would choose the truth if they had the chance and then grant that person salvation based on His wisdom and judgment. He knows us, so He will deal with us justly in the afterlife. We trust in His power and mercy.

If that were true, then nobody would be trying to convert anybody else, and certainly nobody would be calling Mormons ‘not Christian’ and refusing to let one pray for him.

If that were true, then there wouldn’t be a problem with infants dying unbaptized.

If that were true, then there wouldn’t be a problem with Catholics accepting LDS baptisms.

If that were true…

But it’s wishful, revisionist thinking, I’m afraid, and smacks highly of Calvinist thought.

 

[Ross09]

If that were true, then nobody would be trying to convert anybody else, and certainly nobody would be calling Mormons ‘not Christian’ and refusing to let one pray for him.

If that were true, then there wouldn’t be a problem with infants dying unbaptized.

If that were true, then there wouldn’t be a problem with Catholics accepting LDS baptisms.

If that were true…

But it’s wishful, revisionist thinking, I’m afraid, and smacks highly of Calvinist thought.

If what were true, if God was all knowing and all powerful, merciful and just? Our God is all of those things and the Catholic teaching is that not only Catholics make it into heaven. In my personal opinion, I think there are probably plenty of people who think the Catholic Church is phoney who make it to heaven because all they were exposed to was lies and misconceptions about the Faith. If someone is not exposed to the truth they aren’t held responsible for not knowing. They still have to follow moral lives. Christians evangelize because Jesus told us to spread His message of hope and build His Church, not because all those who never heard about Him would be damned. Puts Abraham in a bad spot, if that were the case.