Mormon President

[Allweather]

But Emma never denied her husband was a prophet of god, nor did she deny the book of mormon. She later married a good man, a non-mormon who confirmed I believe, his wife’s testimony of the book. Such is the enigma that emma was. Mormonism is interesting…isn’t it?

No more interesting than any other American cult-sect-religion. Remember, Mormonism is only one among many. America has been the birthplace of a LOT of quasi-Christian religions. Most of them have faded away. Only a few survived, somewhat intact. The Mormons survived mainly because they found ways to adapt. When it became obvious that the U.S. government (AKA the American People) was not going to tolerate a theocratic, polygamous set-up out in Utah, the Mormon church modified itself and started a trend of calming down, becoming more like normal Protestants. This dampened the fires of American mainstream opposition to Mormonism, and allowed the Mormons to practice their odd religion relatively unmolested.

As for Emma Smith not denying the prophethood of Joseph, let’s look at it with a critical eye. The entire Smith family was heavily invested in the religion business. Make no mistake about it, religion was a big business in those days, as it is today. It would have defied logic to think that she would refute the basic claims of Mormonism. That would have left her without a job, income, structure, authority, legacy. A modern example of this type of behavior might be Hillary Clinton. Faced with her husband’s infidelity, many Americans wondered why she didn’t divorce him. Well, hello! She was the First Lady. An awful lot of perks go with being The First Lady, don’t you think? Why would she move out of the White House rather than stand by her man?

That is the skeptic’s view, and mine. It is also very possible that she was convinced and truly believed. Either way, she was wrong.

 

[Allweather]

Some protestant sects can claim that the Catholic Church is not christian. And there is still prejudice against the Catholic Church in US society. What is a christian? Love your neighbor has much to do with it. And yes, that would mean Mormons too. If mormons believe themselves to be christians, who am I to argue with them? Many mormons live good, holy lives with christ at the center. Many catholics should do the same within their own faith and I include my relatives in this statement.

The fact that “some protestant sects” make accusations against Catholicism shouldn’t surprise anyone. They don’t call them Protestants for nothing, you know. Haven’t you wondered what they are protesting?

Mormonism derives from Protestantism. In many ways, Mormons and Protestants share an anti-Catholic bias.

 

[majick275]

The dislike toward the mormons was almost immediate. It came into play when the story of the book of mormon was first announced and it progressed from there. Joseph Smith brought forth a book and this book caused hatred among many locals. But we also need to remember the protestant flair of the local communities at that time.

Joseph Smith made a claim, he saw an angel and then he claimed to have other visitations. Not much different from catholic claims of seeing the virgin mary. The hatred toward the mormons came from two fronts: Intolerance and conformity. But it also came from power. However, I must say that it would be interesting to know just how catholics responded to JS and his message. It seems that most of the intolerance came from the protestant communities. I do believe that the Catholic Church was not high on the list of favorite churches at that time either.

The mormons were forced from community to community and when this happened local people felt threatened since the mormons traveled in large numbers and represented huge voting blocks and influence. The mormons represented difference and they acted differently. This caused problems among local communities who were not known of their tolerance of difference.

Did these mormon communities make mistakes? Yes, they did. But in a country that supposed religious freedom and toleration, what happened to the mormon community was a travesty of justice. They were prevented from practicing their religion and that is a blight on religious freedom in a country that professed religious freedom.

Joseph Smith was murdered because of intolerance, regrardless of what mistakes he made in his life.

I think you leave out way too many facts. Joseph was NOT unique in his claims for that time or area. the shakers had the same claims of angels and books. mohamed had similar claims earlier. this was the time of charismatic sects appearing. it gave us the SDA’s and pentecostals later. Even among the LDS you quickly had rival claims of scriptures and angels. Joseph smiths own account of his angelic visitations has been altered over the years. The persecutions had little if anything to do with claims of angels or books of scripture. those were not unique to mormons. they got chased away form places due to bank fraud (kirtland), joseph’s immorality and abuse of authority (nauvoo) and fears of mormon criminal activity. you might want to read what William Law said about it. he was on of Joseph’s counselors in the first presidency and gives a very objective look at how things were in his final interview with the salt lake city paper.

the only “interference” from the government came from joseph smith and his successors insistence on breaking the law. what part of their religion were they prevented from practicing? polygamy!!! that’s it. I wonder how much religious freedom existed in utah under brigham young? was it even less than that which existed in nauvoo under joseph smith? he even violated freedom of the press.

as to the catholics of the time… yes they were persecuted. Irish catholics especially. churches were burned, priests were assaulted. they were denied jobs and housing. In britain they were stripped of basic rights of citizenship. The kights of cloumbus were formed in the US to counter the severe persecution of catholics in this country. The Catholic church didn’t “react” to the mormons as they were but one of many small groups teaching false doctrine over the years. The Mormons however, decided to denounce the catholics on may occasions. the temple ceremony did so right up until 1990. Orson Pratt spoke often about the catholic church being of the devil. it was considered by most mormons to be the great and abominable church of the devil even being explicitly labeled such in Mconkie’s mormon doctrine. recent LDs leaders have had that part removed for a “kinder gentler” approach but the PoGP still has JS-H with it’s calling of all creeds an abomination. I don’t know that you realize how offensive that is not jsut to catholics but to all churches who profess the nicene and/or apostles creeds.

 

[majick275]

Bushman is an interesting read. Joseph Smith comes across as a human being in his portrait of him. However, the other books that you mentioned do have a critical/anti-mormon bias to them depending on the book and should be read as such.

yet all of those books were written by mormon scholars. some by BYU faculty and even some by official church historians. that should be considered as well.

 

[why_me]

The theories advanced by the BoM were not unique to it. Ideas about the origins of the indians were widespread in those days. Others had written about it. The BoM follows one of the fashions of the day. When claims were made that BoM is “Scripture” on a level equal with the Bible, then obviously there was a confrontation set in place with the orthodox Christians of America, most of whom in those days were Protestant.

 

[why_me]

yet all of those books were written by mormon scholars. some by BYU faculty and even some by official church historians. that should be considered as well.

As long as one is familiar with intent and biasness, there is no problem. The same can be said of those books that our negative toward the catholic faith regardless of who the author is.

 

[why_me]

The fact that “some protestant sects” make accusations against Catholicism shouldn’t surprise anyone. They don’t call them Protestants for nothing, you know. Haven’t you wondered what they are protesting?

Mormonism derives from Protestantism. In many ways, Mormons and Protestants share an anti-Catholic bias.

In some ways you may be right. But the majority of mormons do not have an anti-catholic bias. A mormon leader Bruce R. McConkie did publish a book called Mormon Doctrine. I believe that he said some negative things about the catholic church in that book. But I believe that he was admonished for doing so among other tidbits that he wrote in that book. That book was not mormon doctrine…at least not the first edition.

 

[4boysMom]

There seems to be a very simple problem with your logic. Are catholics’ christian? Some protestant sects would claim no. And so, the debate of who is and who is not a christian is useless.

The mormons believe themselves to be christians. And if you knew how mormons live their lives, you would agree. They attempt to keep their body holy for the holy spirit to dwell in. They have a high standard of moral codes which mirror the catholic cathecism as defined in the new testament. And they read the scriptures every day and this includes the new testament. Not to mention saying grace over their meals, having morning and evening prayer. And they are taught that good works are important. But are they perfect? No. But then again, neither are catholics.

Question: what is a christian? If not a follower of christ and the commandments and one who puts the words of christ in a attempt to do good?

Mormons can call themselves Christians all they want. Saying that you believe in Jesus is one thing, believeing in the Christian Jesus is another. They believe that they themselves will become Gods of their own planet…Read Genesis this goes to show you that the Mormons are not Christian.

I’m not saying that they are not good people and they truely have a great moral standard to live by, but if you do not believe in the Holy Trinity and you believe that Jesus is the phophet of this world…with that, they think will be the prophets of their own world…You are not a Christian by definition.

Well, my friend, Catholics are Christians we were they first Christians started by Jesus Christ himself, we believe in the Holy Trinity. Protestants and Non- Denoms were a splinter group off the Catholic Church, during the reformation. This was because they did not want to follow the same rules.

 

[Allweather]

Plus, the mormons seem to be a rather insular group of people at that time. This did not help much.

Any large group of people, being “insular” and following strange religious practices that claimed ascendency over Christianity, to the extent that they accused those locals of being apostate, would have attracted a lot of unhappy attention to itself. There were also fears that Mormons were recuiting among the locals, which they undoubtedly were, given that the Mormons became “missionary” right from the earliest days. Fears also existed that young women in particular were being recruited for polygamous unions, being that there would certainly have to be a shortage of wives if 30% to 60% of Mormon men were having several for themselves. Once you view all of these things within the context of mid-19th century life in the western U.S., it becomes a lot easier to visualize why the locals would be upset at the Mormons, and why a governor would order them to be “exterminated.”

If one is a protestant, visions of Virgin Mary are not comprehensable and I would assume not to be believed. The lds were never traditional in their faith. They were different and seem to stand alone among the denominations from the very beginning. And isn’t it true that within the Catholic Church, Marian aspiritions did lead to new catholic theology. I am thinking of the ‘immaculate conception’.

While there are some fairly unique beliefs among Mormons, mostly they are Protestant, through and through. Zerinus has argued passionately, but ineffectively, that Mormonism has no relationship whatever to Protestantism. He probably should read more, especially Grant Palmer, who deals with this subject.

One also finds a variety of unique beliefs among Christian Protestant sects. In fact, variety of beliefs is one of the things that sets protestantism apart from orthodox (Catholic) Christianity. These occur mainly because they’ve cut themselves off from valid authority, and have nothing by which to guage what is up or down. Being so cut off, they are free-floating, subject to the guidance of charismatic “prophets” and innovative thought.

As for the Immaculate Conception, this doesn’t flow from a Marian apparition (I assume you are referring to Lourdes) but rather was believed by Christians from the earliest times. The late statement of dogma merely gives authoritative assent to an already-existing fact.

It was a mob pure and simple. And I am sure that there were masons among them. Still, no man should be brutally murdered by mob justice. Joseph’s brother was also killed at the same time. Their poor mother was heartbroken until her death.

The Richard Abanes book, One Nation Under Gods, has an account of the day of the murders that gives quite a lot of detail, and he does provide sources for his information. He says that Joseph had a six shooter on him, and managed to kill or seriously wound the man who shot Hyrum. He also says that Joseph, having been shot inside the building, fell out of a window, alive. He was then executed by gunfire at the command of a person in charge of the mob. This suggests that it wasn’t strictly a “mob” but rather a vigilante force of some sort, since they were under command, and relatively disciplined. He also says that, earlier in the day, Joseph had sent a written message to the Mormon leaders asking for help, for them to come basically guns ablazing to rescue him. This plea for help was ignored by the Mormons.

Apparently he was so loosely held in confinement that he was able to possess a firearm there. He was also able to communicate with the outside world. These things, plus others, lead one to think that the situation there was far more complex than what is presented by modern Mormon historians. I watch BYU TV often, and have seen several programs that reconstruct the events of that day in 1844, and they seem terribly fanciful compared to other written versions I’ve read. Of course, these things can be hard to know for sure. There are always many opinions about history, and in the end one believes what one wants to believe.

 

[4boysMom]

Any large group of people, being “insular” and following strange religious practices that claimed ascendency over Christianity, to the extent that they accused those locals of being apostate, would have attracted a lot of unhappy attention to itself. There were also fears that Mormons were recuiting among the locals, which they undoubtedly were, given that the Mormons became “missionary” right from the earliest days. Fears also existed that young women in particular were being recruited for polygamous unions, being that there would certainly have to be a shortage of wives if 30% to 60% of Mormon men were having several for themselves. Once you view all of these things within the context of mid-19th century life in the western U.S., it becomes a lot easier to visualize why the locals would be upset at the Mormons, and why a governor would order them to be “exterminated.”

While there are some fairly unique beliefs among Mormons, mostly they are Protestant, through and through. Zerinus has argued passionately, but ineffectively, that Mormonism has no relationship whatever to Protestantism. He probably should read more, especially Grant Palmer, who deals with this subject.

One also finds a variety of unique beliefs among Christian Protestant sects. In fact, variety of beliefs is one of the things that sets protestantism apart from orthodox (Catholic) Christianity. These occur mainly because they’ve cut themselves off from valid authority, and have nothing by which to guage what is up or down. Being so cut off, they are free-floating, subject to the guidance of charismatic “prophets” and innovative thought.

As for the Immaculate Conception, this doesn’t flow from a Marian apparition (I assume you are referring to Lourdes) but rather was believed by Christians from the earliest times. The late statement of dogma merely gives authoritative assent to an already-existing fact.

The Richard Abanes book, One Nation Under Gods, has an account of the day of the murders that gives quite a lot of detail, and he does provide sources for his information. He says that Joseph had a six shooter on him, and managed to kill or seriously wound the man who shot Hyrum. He also says that Joseph, having been shot inside the building, fell out of a window, alive. He was then executed by gunfire at the command of a person in charge of the mob. This suggests that it wasn’t strictly a “mob” but rather a vigilante force of some sort, since they were under command, and relatively disciplined. He also says that, earlier in the day, Joseph had sent a written message to the Mormon leaders asking for help, for them to come basically guns ablazing to rescue him. This plea for help was ignored by the Mormons.

Apparently he was so loosely held in confinement that he was able to possess a firearm there. He was also able to communicate with the outside world. These things, plus others, lead one to think that the situation there was far more complex than what is presented by modern Mormon historians. I watch BYU TV often, and have seen several programs that reconstruct the events of that day in 1844, and they seem terribly fanciful compared to other written versions I’ve read. Of course, these things can be hard to know for sure. There are always many opinions about history, and in the end one believes what one wants to believe.

Try watching EWTN sometime. (Eternal Word Television Network)

 

[majick275]

As long as one is familiar with intent and biasness, there is no problem. The same can be said of those books that our negative toward the catholic faith regardless of who the author is.

agreed. i just wanted to be clear on that and not write those books off as anti-mormon propaganda. Those authors were all trying to deal with facts while staying true to their mormon faith. some of them had complete access to many restricted archives of the LDS church. I don’t believe any of them intended to undermine the LDS church rather they chose not ignore controversial facts.

 

[majick275]

Allweather;2017552:

Actually the book of mormon was quite unique, mainly because the book is a book of doctrine, more than a history. Of course, this is my opinion on the matter. There was much speculation at that time as to who wrote it. Because many of Joseph’s neighbors could not see him writing such a book, theories as to how it came about were rife. And yes, various theories were put forth as sources. All unproven. And comparisons were made with other works but these comparisons were unconvincing for many.

i still have to challenge this assertion. martin harris (one of the primary witnesses to the BoM) offered his testimony to the validity of the shaker book of revelation. that was considered doctrine. the koran existed then. There were many preachers at that place and time claiming visions and revelations that directed new doctrine and practice. I don’t see the BoM as unique in that respect. I understand the LDS perspective that it was unique due to it being true and the others false but surely you can see that to others that doesn’t hold up.

 

[why_me]

I’m not saying that they are not good people and they truely have a great moral standard to live by, but if you do not believe in the Holy Trinity and you believe that Jesus is the phophet of this world…with that, they think will be the prophets of their own world…You are not a Christian by definition.

Well, my friend, Catholics are Christians we were they first Christians started by Jesus Christ himself, we believe in the Holy Trinity. Protestants and Non- Denoms were a splinter group off the Catholic Church, during the reformation. This was because they did not want to follow the same rules.

Okay here is my problem. I have a catholic/mormon background. For many protestants, I am not a christian regardless if I say that I am a catholic or a mormon. I loose on both counts.

You will get no argument from me that catholics are christians. I am with you on that one. But likewise, mormons are also christians. but mind you, different from you.

I can make no judgement as to whom is a christian. God will sort us out when the time comes. But this I can tell you. There will be many mormons in heaven if only because they lived a god-respecting life on this earth.

 

[why_me]

why me;2017864:

i still have to challenge this assertion. martin harris (one of the primary witnesses to the BoM) offered his testimony to the validity of the shaker book of revelation. that was considered doctrine. the koran existed then. There were many preachers at that place and time claiming visions and revelations that directed new doctrine and practice. I don’t see the BoM as unique in that respect. I understand the LDS perspective that it was unique due to it being true and the others false but surely you can see that to others that doesn’t hold up.

I wrote what you quoted allweather as saying. I wanted to clarify that. Now about Martin Harris. Martin Harris never denied what he saw. However antimormons often claim that later Martin said that he saw the book with ‘spiritual eyes’ as if he were hullucinating about the book. But to my recollection, he never denied what he saw. And that says alot. The problem with Mormonism, is that there are all these witnesses to the book and no one actually denied their testimony even after leaving the church. David Whitmer perhaps left the strongest testimony of the book.

And yet, there are various interpretations out there about it all and various heresay stories. But the lds church still survives. The mormon church has an interesting history. It is unique. Even Oliver Cowdery one of the witnesses to the book of mormon left the church at one time over polygamy. He later returned. He never denied what happened to him at that time when he was transcribing the book of mormon and with Joseph Smith when the priesthood was restored. How to figure that one out? I can’t and this is why the mormon story is an enigma.

Mitt is a part of that church with an interesting story. He must not be that bad.

 

[Allweather]

I can make no judgement as to whom is a christian. God will sort us out when the time comes. But this I can tell you. There will be many mormons in heaven if only because they lived a god-respecting life on this earth.

I agree, but that is a personal opinion. I’m sure many good Christians would disagree with me, and us, on this point.

I do think, though, that one needs to be specific about what one believes. You may remember at Sunday Mass standing and reciting, praying, the Nicene Creed, or perhaps saying the Apostle’s Creed before the Rosary. It is not by accident that Catholics memorize the Creeds, and recite them often. Contained within these creeds are the kernals of Christian faith. It is not optional to believe some and disbelieve other clauses of these creeds. We are required to give mental assent to every particle. This really is the very definition of Christian. Let’s say that you believe everything about the Creed except the part about how Jesus is “the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light. True God from True God. Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.” If you don’t believe that, then, you are not a Christian. Period.

 

[why_me]

Try watching EWTN sometime. (Eternal Word Television Network)

I watch it quite often. I like it. But I did take issue with the exmormon fellow on that program ‘Journey Home’. He also claimed mormons were not christians.

 

[why_me]

The Richard Abanes book, One Nation Under Gods, has an account of the day of the murders that gives quite a lot of detail, and he does provide sources for his information. He says that Joseph had a six shooter on him, and managed to kill or seriously wound the man who shot Hyrum. He also says that Joseph, having been shot inside the building, fell out of a window, alive. He was then executed by gunfire at the command of a person in charge of the mob. This suggests that it wasn’t strictly a “mob” but rather a vigilante force of some sort, since they were under command, and relatively disciplined. He also says that, earlier in the day, Joseph had sent a written message to the Mormon leaders asking for help, for them to come basically guns ablazing to rescue him. This plea for help was ignored by the Mormons.

There are many interpretations out there. Joseph did have a peashooter for a gun which was given to him by the jailer when he believed that JS’s life was in danger. Joseph did use the gun but as to whether he killed or wounded someone is heavily debated. There was a mob who ran into the jail and a mob outside. The goal was to kill Joseph and destroy the lds church by doing so. They failed. They killed Joseph but the lds church survived and the mob created a martyr for Christ. I believe that they knew they made a mistake afterwards. I don’t know about the plea for help but if it was made, it arrived too late. He was already murdered.

As I understand it, the mob wanted to cut off his head, but someone prevented this from happening. Whatever happened it was a gruesome affair and a stain on religious liberty.

 

[4boysMom]

I watch it quite often. I like it. But I did take issue with the exmormon fellow on that program ‘Journey Home’. He also claimed mormons were not christians.

Frankly, they are not Christians. If an exmormon is saying it, then it must be true. Who would know better then someone who practiced the religion. A Christian is going to Heaven or Hell in the afterlife, not on a planet where, if a man, could call his wife (by their secret name) if they choose to. “Until death do us part”…Heaven with the Lord or Hell with the Devil.

The Journey Home is a great show!!! I like Web of Faith as well. Heck, all the shows on EWTN are great!!!

 

[why_me]

The Journey Home is a great show!!! I like Web of Faith as well. Heck, all the shows on EWTN are great!!!

Yes, they are. I like the rosary that is said by the young girl in the open field. She is later joined by others and eventually by people from all over the world.

However, I did write in to EWTN after the broadcast and engaged in a written debate with the program director. I am very sensitive when people claim another faith is not christian. And like I said, there are some out there that will say the same about you because you are a catholic: you are not christian.

 

[why_me]

Frankly, they are not Christians. If an exmormon is saying it, then it must be true. Who would know better then someone who practiced the religion.

You do know that an excatholic could appear on a TV show and claim: ‘When I left the catholic church I became a christian. I saw the grace in the scriptures and how I was saved by believing in Jesus. Now I confess my sins to the lord and not to a priest. Finally I found Jesus’.

You know that this could happen, right?