Mormon President

[isaac.madsen]

Not true. You have done nothing on these boards to get excommunicated. The most that I see is a man who is searching for his own place and truth. There is nothing excommunicable about that. In fact, if your bishop is a kind and sensible man, I can see nothing wrong in telling him how you feel and where these feelings are leading you. And if he is not a kind and sensible man, well, no one is perfect.

Isaac, no reason to play the ‘victim’ in this case.

Actually, I see a very real possibility that I would be seen as a dissenter as my influence could definitely cause others to question their faith. Dissenters have every possibility of being excommunicated - especially those who have received higher ordinances. I don’t consider myself a “victim” though, as I have chosen to put my signature up. Thus, in a way, I may be asking for excommunication. I don’t really fear that it will happen. I was just throwing it out as a very real possibility.

 

[isaac.madsen]

I’ll also say that even though it was inexpensive it did freak me out a little my first time through that I had to rent clothes to go through. that was about as money changers in the temple as i could think of. you literally can’t go through the temple ceremony without paying. you either have to buy everything or rent what you don’t have or you can’t go through. i find that a little disturbing. Although the endowment is a lot MORE disturbing this is something at least that we can all talk about openly.

That’s exactly what I was getting at, and if you think it doesn’t bother me that things are sold at the Catholic church, you’re very wrong. If Christ said it is wrong to be selling things in sacred places, that is the end of the question. It is wrong. If you have scriptural evidence to the contrary, please share it.

 

[Geocacher]

I went over to www.lds.org just for the heck of it, and typed in Trinity, and got this TRINITY <check out number 7 there.

This came up with alot of articles in the search above.

I was listening to the iPod this morning and came to Mark Chapter 13, and found the scripture that says that only the Father knows when the 2nd coming will be, so how does the Father know without the Son knowing??

A google search > Trinity Mark 13 (without quotes)
The first link is interesting.

This is a subject, wherein I have no fixed mindset, and can go either way.

 

[PaulDupre]

I was listening to the iPod this morning and came to Mark Chapter 13, and found the scripture that says that only the Father knows when the 2nd coming will be, so how does the Father know without the Son knowing??

Remember that Jesus said that before his resurrection and ascencion into heaven. At that time, before he was glorified, he apparently did not know some of the things the Father knew. But now that “all power in heaven and on earth has been given to [the Son]” (see Matt 28:18) after his resurrection, he surely knows all that the Father knows and is heir to all that the Father has.

Remember that he said to Mary Magdelene “touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father”. That is no longer true either.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Allweather]

Just ruminating here…

The catechism tells us that the Trinity are three distinct persons, but the second person, Jesus, is a composite being both human and divine. Is it possible the human Jesus didn’t know some things that the divine Jesus did?

 

[Allweather]

I went over to www.lds.org just for the heck of it, and typed in Trinity, and got this TRINITY <check out number 7 there.

The article has a number of problems on the basis of facts.

I realize that Mormons want to be considered Christians nowadays, but I’ve been told that this hasn’t always been true. Time was, so I’ve been told, Mormons didn’t WANT to be called Christian. But now they do. The RLDS has gone so far as to change their name, taking out the LDS part. To look at a CoC church (there’s one near my home) you’d think it is just another Protestant church.

However, the article you link to is a mess. For instance, the writer says that at one time Catholics called Protestants heretics. We still do. Another oddity is the saying that Protestants and Catholics use different Bibles. They don’t. While the books the Protestants cut out of the Bible are significant, they don’t have any effect on any core doctrine of the Christian faith. Then again, the Protestants ARE heretics, and so we shouldn’t wonder that they have done such things. At least they haven’t attempted to re-write the Bible, as Joseph Smith did, nor have any of them suggested that the Bible isn’t trustworthy, as Joseph Smith did.

 

[zerinus]

Just ruminating here…

The catechism tells us that the Trinity are three distinct persons, but the second person, Jesus, is a composite being both human and divine. Is it possible the human Jesus didn’t know some things that the divine Jesus did?

The material he found in his second search is more interesting. It lists 26 contradictions found in the doctrine of the Trinity, each of which if unresolved would make the doctrine unworkable. You will find it here:

answering-christianity.com/trinity_contra.htm

What is your answer to that?

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

The material he found in his second search is more interesting. It lists 26 contradictions found in the doctrine of the Trinity, each of which if unresolved would make the doctrine unworkable. You will find it here:

answering-christianity.com/trinity_contra.htm

What is your answer to that?

zerinus

I can’t look at that site from here 'cause it is filtered for “inappropriate content” so I’ll have to wait for a couple of hours to read that.

Let me emphasize, though, that I am not a theologian, and have few meaningful opinions about the Trinity. Don’t look for any ground shaking announcements from me.

 

[zerinus]

I realize that Mormons want to be considered Christians nowadays, but I’ve been told that this hasn’t always been true. Time was, so I’ve been told, Mormons didn’t WANT to be called Christian. But now they do.

Actually, that is not true. The LDS Church has always maintained that Christianity as a whole is apostate; which means, essentially, that they are not Christians. That leaves the LDS Church the only truly Christian Church around.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I can’t look at that site from here 'cause it is filtered for “inappropriate content” so I’ll have to wait for a couple of hours to read that.

LOL. There were loads of dancing naked women on the site! Actually, they are pictures of the author’s polygamous wives!

Let me emphasize, though, that I am not a theologian, and have few meaningful opinions about the Trinity. Don’t look for any ground shaking announcements from me.

But you are commenting on theology. Religion is theological. You can’t discuss religion without becoming theological. I have noticed that quite a lot from you, where you eagerly enter a discussion about religion, which is essentially theological; and when the going gets tough, you hide behind the “don’t ask me, I am an idiot!” clause. Well if you are an idiot, why do you debate? You can’t have it both ways. You have to make up your mind which side of the fence you want to jump. If you are an idiot, don’t debate. If you want to debate, accept theological responsibility for what say; and when you cannot prevail, acknowledge defeat. Don’t try to hide behind the “I am an idiot!” clause.

zerinus

P.S. Since you couldn’t access the site, the list of contradictions are presented in the next post:

Continued . . . /

 

[zerinus]

/. . . Continued

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father’s agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination!
2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).
7. Did “God the Son” die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
10. Did “God the Son” surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).
12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of “God the Son”? Are there two Sons?
13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian’s heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father’s bosom? (John 1:18).
18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).
20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?

 

[Kristine1957]

I can guarantee that if these pages with my actual signature are found by my bishop or stake president (or possibly somebody even higher up) - or by any member who knows me for that matter, I’ll likely be excommunicated anyway.

Isaac: Just curious do you believe in the Mormon church? It sounds like you have been active for a long time?

 

[Allweather]

But you are commenting on theology. Religion is theological. You can’t discuss religion without becoming theological. I have noticed that quite a lot from you, where you eagerly enter a discussion about religion, which is essentially theological; and when the going gets tough, you hide behind the “don’t ask me, I am an idiot!” clause. Well if you are an idiot, why do you debate? You can’t have it both ways. You have to make up your mind which side of the fence you want to jump. If you are an idiot, don’t debate. If you want to debate, accept theological responsibility for what say; and when you cannot prevail, acknowledge defeat. Don’t try to hide behind the “I am an idiot!” clause.

zerinus

I didn’t say I am an idiot, I said I’m not a theologian. I have no more or less problem with Trinity than any other Christian. I’m not aware of there being a requirement that one be a degreed theologian in order to discuss religion. If that were the case, then you little missionaries would be SOL. I was talking to a missionary a few weeks ago and I used the word “apologetics” and he asked me “what is apologetics?”

 

[Allweather]

Actually, that is not true. The LDS Church has always maintained that Christianity as a whole is apostate; which means, essentially, that they are not Christians. That leaves the LDS Church the only truly Christian Church around.

zerinus

Would that be the Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism to which you refer? Are the other Mormons, like Community of Christ and FLDS, also among the remnant?

My heavens! If LDS is the only true “christianity” thank God I’m apostate from it.

 

[Allweather]

/. . . Continued

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father’s agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination!

Etc. I think I get the idea. I can’t explain why the system I was on earlier had filtered that site, unless it doesn’t like the word “Islam” which I suppose I could understand.

This, from The Catholic Encyclopedia:

““The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion – the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.””

Emphasis mine. Here is a link to the entire article:

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Maybe this rejection of Trinity is one more, among many, similarities between Mormonism and Islam. I don’t know. But I do know that you can’t be a Christian if you reject the “central doctrine of the Christian religion.”

 

[Geocacher]

Maybe this rejection of Trinity is one more, among many, similarities between Mormonism and Islam. I don’t know. But I do know that you can’t be a Christian if you reject the “central doctrine of the Christian religion.”

Whats funny about this, is that it’s true, the Mormon church likes to compare itself with ISLAM, and I have the Aug 2000 Ensign

 

[Allweather]

Whats funny about this, is that it’s true, the Mormon church likes to compare itself with ISLAM, and I have the Aug 2000 Ensign

Yes, it does. And getting back to the original thread topic, this similarity should provide lots of matter for journalistic inquiry during Mitt Romney’s Presidential run. It certainly is no exaggeration to say that Islam is viewed by the West with fear and loathing. Any Presidential candidate who claims a religion so closely related to Islam will have some 'splaining to do.

 

[zerinus]

I didn’t say I am an idiot, I said I’m not a theologian.

I didn’t say that you were an idiot either. I used hyperbole.

I have no more or less problem with Trinity than any other Christian. I’m not aware of there being a requirement that one be a degreed theologian in order to discuss religion. If that were the case, then you little missionaries would be SOL. I was talking to a missionary a few weeks ago and I used the word “apologetics” and he asked me “what is apologetics?”

I am not a degreed theologian either. I doubt if anybody here is. (And neither are our missionaries, for that matter.) But religion is theological, like it or not. You can’t discuss religion without becoming theological. When you discuss religion, you are discussing theology, whether you realize it or not. You can’t discuss religion with someone, and when the going gets tough, try to wriggle your way out of your quandary by claiming that you are not a theologian. That is a copout. It don’t work.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Would that be the Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism to which you refer? Are the other Mormons, like Community of Christ and FLDS, also among the remnant?

I was referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of which there is only one. I don’t know of any other.

My heavens! If LDS is the only true “christianity” thank God I’m apostate from it.

I am sure the LDS Church is equally grateful that you are not a member of it. It is “narrow gate,” as you know. Not many people can enter. Only the worthy are allowed in.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

But I do know that you can’t be a Christian if you reject the “central doctrine of the Christian religion.”

Trinitarianism is not a central doctrine of the Christian religion. It is a central doctrine of apostate Christianity. It is not biblical. And don’t try to wriggle out of that by telling me that you are not a theologian. If it is not biblical, then it is not Christianity—degreed theologian or not.

zerinus