Mormon President

[Allweather]

I will give you a tip. Don’t get hung up about theology. True theology is derived from the Bible. It must be biblical. If it is not, it is not theology, and it is not Christianity. I am not a theologian—only insofar as I know my Bible. I will stand up to any theologian because I know my Bible—not because I have read theological textbooks. That is the basis on which I discuss religion, and that is where my theology is derived form. There is only one major difference between us. We have a lot more of the word of God than you do. We know something that you don’t. That is what makes a knowledgeable Mormon a better theologian than non-Mormon.

zerinus

Actually, the way my dictionary defines “theology” it doesn’t have anything specifically to do with Christianity, but with the study of God. From Merriam-Webster: : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God’s relation to the world. So it is too restrictive a definition to apply to that word only the study of the Judeo-Christian scriptures we call Bible.

I agree that you Mormons have a more, shall we say, expansive notion of what is considered scripture. This, coupled with your belief in a type of revelation from which new things may be delivered unto you from spirits, has caused you to create a larger body of theological/doctrinal material. In fact, it is this additional material, and the revelations from which it has derived, which set you apart from Christianity. This, coupled with the odd doctrines about Trinity, the very nature of God, is why you can’t be considered Christian. We saying it isn’t meant as an insult, but merely an observation of fact.

 

[Allweather]

Acts 8:

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

That seems like a fair statement, but it is possible you’re assuming a very short time period between verses 35 and 36. As you surely know, the Bible doesn’t present itself like a newspaper article with a well-defined chronological sequence of events.

It also must be remembered that the Church was still in its infancy and hadn’t developed the theological foundations, what you might consider encrustations, that were required as it confronted the world around it. When the 3000 were baptized at Pentecost, it was because of a powerful Petrine sermon as well as the witness of the Holy Ghost manifesting Himself in signs and wonders. No question. This would have been the norm at that time.

That is the criterion we apply for baptizing converts. No RCIA, no great theological lessons, just the pure testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus

But, that flies in the face of what you said previously. You told me that the gate is narrow and only the worthy are allowed to pass through it. Now you’re saying it is easy, and all who “testify” of the Holy Ghost are allowed in.

FYI, Catholics baptize people immediately, but then set about a program of detailed instruction in the rubrics of the faith. This is so that they can be equipped, “study to show thyself approved”, to live the Christian life and resist the cults and sects who will assault them by means of heretical doctrines. Maybe Mormons would have fewer defections if they just went ahead and presented the whole strange enchilada to converts ASAP rather than let them find out 20 years later that their god has hair and teeth.

 

[c659smith]

zerinus37

In what I know of the Mormon Religion here are a few questions I have,

God is the spirit Father of all people and man is created in His image. The Mormon Church teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones. He loves each person and has said, “For behold this is my work and my glory – to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

Except for when Jesus was on earth as man where is your witnesses or historical data on this revelation?

the Book of Mormon contains all the ordinances and principles that pertain to the gospel, why don’t Mormonism’s esoteric doctrines show up in it?

The doctrine that God is nothing more than an “exalted man with a body of flesh and bones” appears nowhere in the Book of Mormon. Nor does the doctrine of Jesus Christ being the “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Nor do the doctrines COLOR=“Yellow”]that men can become gods and that God the Father has a god above him, who has a god above him, ad infinitum.

but these are Mormon beliefs correct?.

Remember one of the Commandments–

Do you not believe in seperate Gods---- than which one do you exhalt in order to be in compliance with the 1st commandment.

I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Please produce any historical proof to support your claim that in the early centuries the Church of Mormon existed as is claimed by the book of Mormons.

 

[why_me]

Actually, I see a very real possibility that I would be seen as a dissenter as my influence could definitely cause others to question their faith. Dissenters have every possibility of being excommunicated - especially those who have received higher ordinances. I don’t consider myself a “victim” though, as I have chosen to put my signature up. Thus, in a way, I may be asking for excommunication. I don’t really fear that it will happen. I was just throwing it out as a very real possibility.

Actually Isaac you are not a real dissenter. I have answered your questions quite well and countered your claims. You have an interpretation but your interpretation is no different from many that one can find on the web. However, as I showed you, there are answers out there to your questions. I even answered the ‘violent’ history part of your problem. No my friend, you are not a dissenter. You are just a questioner who has a particular take on the issues gleamed from antimormon sites. Nothing more.

And lets be honest, you would love to be excommunicated. It would solve all your problems. Right?

 

[why_me]

I can assure you that many LDS temples do in fact have clothing sales inside and a cafeteria inside as well. I don’t have a problem with the clothing sales because in the ones I have seen at least it is out in the vestibule area and thus is in my mind much like why me’s example of having rosaries and medals, etc. available at some catholic churches. (although that’s probably better off being done at the parish office like most of the ones i’ve been to). I do find the cafeteria inside the “sacred” area (that which requires a valid temple recommend to enter) problematic. the clothing rental inside that area seems wrong to me as well. I used to go quite often when i was a veil worker and my parents are regular temple workers currently. They seem to feel it a huge convenience to have the cafeteria there but I wonder if it would really be that much of an issue to move it out to the vestibule area where they wouldn’t have to go into “street clothes” but at least wouldn’t require a temple recommend to eat.

I’ll also say that even though it was inexpensive it did freak me out a little my first time through that I had to rent clothes to go through. that was about as money changers in the temple as i could think of. you literally can’t go through the temple ceremony without paying. you either have to buy everything or rent what you don’t have or you can’t go through. i find that a little disturbing. Although the endowment is a lot MORE disturbing this is something at least that we can all talk about openly.

I am afraid that you are wrong. The cafeteria is not a part of the Temple. And you know this. There are also new temples where there are no cafterias at all. But the the temples with the cafeterias usually have them to the side but not inside. I just checked with my exwife about this. She goes to temples quite often. It is also a convience for the young who are doing baptisms for the dead. This is not an issue at all when one thinks of Isaac’s post which was just a little off the mark.

 

[why_me]

I’ll also say that even though it was inexpensive it did freak me out a little my first time through that I had to rent clothes to go through. that was about as money changers in the temple as i could think of. you literally can’t go through the temple ceremony without paying. you either have to buy everything or rent what you don’t have or you can’t go through. i find that a little disturbing. Although the endowment is a lot MORE disturbing this is something at least that we can all talk about openly.

Most lds members who go to the temple bring their own clothes. And this is the way it should be. No problem there. And if you bring your own clothes, what are you paying for?

And we need to remember, that every pair of pants, socks, shirt worn, needs to be washed and dried. Who does it? The lds church.

 

[why_me]

zerinus;2031538:
Actually, that is completely untrue. The LDS church is one of the easiest to join. Just two missionary discussions and then you can be baptized into the church. It’s also one of the hardest churches to leave. Just ask any ex-mormon what they had to go through to get off the membership roles. The gate in is very wide, and the gate out is quite narrow.

The only thing that is required to leave is a letter of resignation. Nothing more. I have no idea what exmembers are complaining of. Of course, one must wait a while, maybe a couple of months. But the letter is sent to salt lake city and not just to the local ward (parish). But in the end, it is granted. No problem. Actually those who complain usually show victim status and want some sort of connection with cyber people. We all want a hug or a pity party or two, right?

 

[Chris-WA]

We will baptize someone as soon as they gain the witness of the Spirit that the Church is true, and express a desire to be baptized; see my previous post. The only addition to that is that we explain to them the requirements of baptism, which is repentance of their sins; and the main covenants they enter into when they join the Church—i.e. the importance of reminding worthy, regular church attendance, paying tithing, observing the word of wisdom and the commandments that God has given etc., which doesn’t require an awful lot of teaching.

zerinus

We were discussing how easy it is for someone to join the LDS church without really having any idea of what they’re getting into. The point is that if the missionaries were more open about the teachings of the Mormon Church, many prospective converts would never agree to be baptized as Mormons. If the missionaries explained that God the Father was once a man who is now married to some celestial goddess wife up in heaven, or that God revealed polygamy was to be practiced in the latter days, or that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, or that Adam and Michael the Archangel were the same being, or any of the other truly bizarre teachings of the Mormon church, the prospective converts would run for the door. But they don’t teach those things for precisely one reason–they know that stuff will scare the pants off a lot of people and it’s better to learn that stuff years down the road after your life is completely submerged in Mormonism. That way it’s not so easy to leave. By then all your associations are Mormon and to leave means to lose your friends and maybe even your family. Ask the ex-Mormons here which was harder–letting go of the doctrine or cutting the social ties that came from membership in the Mormon church.

 

[majick275]

I am afraid that you are wrong. The cafeteria is not a part of the Temple. And you know this. There are also new temples where there are no cafterias at all. But the the temples with the cafeterias usually have them to the side but not inside. I just checked with my exwife about this. She goes to temples quite often. It is also a convience for the young who are doing baptisms for the dead. This is not an issue at all when one thinks of Isaac’s post which was just a little off the mark.

and yet i have eaten in the cafeteria in the dallas temple which is in the area where you have to have a recomend… go ahead and verify that with members in dallas. you might want to ask about many others with the same setup. apparently you didn’t know this.

 

[majick275]

Most lds members who go to the temple bring their own clothes. And this is the way it should be. No problem there. And if you bring your own clothes, what are you paying for?

And we need to remember, that every pair of pants, socks, shirt worn, needs to be washed and dried. Who does it? The lds church.

in my experience most folks rented some or all of the required items. I found that to b ethe case in houston, dallas, mesa, hawaii, and germany. admittedly I don’t have personal experience in the others. Have you been throught he endowment or sealing ceremonies? last time I checked the LDS church had plenty of money to pay for laundry done by unpaid volunteers.

 

[majick275]

Chris-WA;2032000:

The only thing that is required to leave is a letter of resignation. Nothing more. I have no idea what exmembers are complaining of. Of course, one must wait a while, maybe a couple of months. But the letter is sent to salt lake city and not just to the local ward (parish). But in the end, it is granted. No problem. Actually those who complain usually show victim status and want some sort of connection with cyber people. We all want a hug or a pity party or two, right?

well that’s a recent development brought about by lawsuits. previously you HAD to be exed. if you just left it was apostasy as the charge. it wasn’t that long ago that they wouldn’t let you go without some sort of disciplinary proceeding. case law now prohibits that, so they had to adapt. even now though it can sometimes be a “race” to quit before they fire you. I had no problem getting my paperwork through but i know others who did. I need no pity and am not a victim anymore. I could make a case about my childhood but I overcame that so I won’t. some people though have been wronged in their efforts to leave the DLS church though. (especially in heavy mormon demographic areas like utah)

 

[why_me]

and yet i have eaten in the cafeteria in the dallas temple which is in the area where you have to have a recomend… go ahead and verify that with members in dallas. you might want to ask about many others with the same setup. apparently you didn’t know this.

That is true, one needs to recommend if one wants to eat in the temple in certain temple areas. But the cafeteria is not a part of the temple per se, and is meant for members to do their temple work without hunger or inconvience.

 

[Geocacher]

I remember going to the Washington D.C. Temple in the 70s, and I remember the cafeteria in an upper floor at that time, but what gets me, are the Washrooms with Toilets in the Temple, and according to Deuteronomy 23:12-14, this should be done outside sacred areas.

 

[c659smith]

Has anyone noticed there are no Mormons out there that will answer the questions I had in my last post?

zerinus37

In what I know of the Mormon Religion here are a few questions I have,

God is the spirit Father of all people and man is created in His image. The Mormon Church teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones. He loves each person and has said, “For behold this is my work and my glory – to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

Except for when Jesus was on earth as man where is your witnesses or historical data on this revelation?

the Book of Mormon contains all the ordinances and principles that pertain to the gospel, why don’t Mormonism’s esoteric doctrines show up in it?

The doctrine that God is nothing more than an “exalted man with a body of flesh and bones” appears nowhere in the Book of Mormon. Nor does the doctrine of Jesus Christ being the “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Nor do the doctrines that men can become gods and that God the Father has a god above him, who has a god above him, ad infinitum.
but these are Mormon beliefs correct?.

Remember one of the Commandments–

Do you not believe in seperate Gods---- than which one do you exhalt in order to be in compliance with the 1st commandment.

I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Please produce any historical proof to support your claim that in the early centuries the Church of Mormon existed as is claimed by the book of Mormons.

ZERINUS WHERE ARE YOU ?

 

[why_me]

Has anyone noticed there are no

The doctrine that God is nothing more than an “exalted man with a body of flesh and bones” appears nowhere in the Book of Mormon. Nor does the doctrine of Jesus Christ being the “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Nor do the doctrines that men can become gods and that God the Father has a god above him, who has a god above him, ad infinitum.

The story of how Lucifer became Lucifer is in a different lds scripture from the book of mormon:

SELECTIONS FROM THE
BOOK OF MOSES
CHAPTER 4
(June—October 1830)
How Satan became the devil—He tempts Eve—Adam and Eve fall and death enters the world.

1 And I, the aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4

I hope that this explains your problem. The lds have more scripture than just the bible and the book of mormon. Do you understand?

 

[why_me]

Has anyone noticed there are no

The doctrine that God is nothing more than an “exalted man with a body of flesh and bones” appears nowhere in the Book of Mormon. Nor does the doctrine of Jesus Christ being the “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Nor do the doctrines that men can become gods and that God the Father has a god above him, who has a god above him, ad infinitum.

The story of how Lucifer became Lucifer is in a different lds scripture from the book of mormon:

SELECTIONS FROM THE
BOOK OF MOSES
CHAPTER 4
(June—October 1830)
How Satan became the devil—He tempts Eve—Adam and Eve fall and death enters the world.

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4

I hope that this explains your problem. The lds have more scripture than just the bible and the book of mormon. Do you understand?

 

[why_me]

Now we must admit that the lds version of how satan became does make some sense. But it even goes more deeply. Before we lived on this earth, we lived with our heavenly father. Those that followed the plan of christ, were allowed to get a physical body, hence, we all accepted the plan of Christ. Those who did not accept Christ’s plan but rather accepted the plan of Satan, were cast out with him, to become his demons. Hence, satan wishes to destroy our bodies, physical bodies that were denied him and his followers. This is why, we are exhorted to keep our bodies holy and why satan wishes to destroy our bodies when we are alive. And so, the lds teaches that we should have no drugs, alcohol, premaritial sex, excessive body piercings, tattoos etc.

It does make sense right?

 

[Allweather]

Now we must admit that the lds version of how satan became does make some sense. But it even goes more deeply. Before we lived on this earth, we lived with our heavenly father. Those that followed the plan of christ, were allowed to get a physical body, hence, we all accepted the plan of Christ. Those who did not accept Christ’s plan but rather accepted the plan of Satan, were cast out with him, to become his demons. Hence, satan wishes to destroy our bodies, physical bodies that were denied him and his followers. This is why, we are exhorted to keep our bodies holy and why satan wishes to destroy our bodies when we are alive. And so, the lds teaches that we should have no drugs, alcohol, premaritial sex, excessive body piercings, tattoos etc.

It does make sense right?

It makes as much sense as just about any myth. The problem is that it derives from extra-Biblical, non-Church sources, and so must be considered non-authoritative.

We do understand that LDS teachings derive from a lot of non-Biblical, non-authoritative “revelations” and found “scriptures.” Yet, they are mixed together with valid teachings, such as the one you cite above about our bodies being the temples of the Holy Spirit. This is valid teaching, but your description of it is not exactly Biblical.

 

[c659smith]

So why do we have evil on earth as according to your statement we would not be given bodies unless we were followers of Christ before we were born as humans here on earth. Unless all people who are not followers here on earth of Jesus are really demons.

Makes no sense and do not know where you get this from? sounds more like a legal document then scripture.

 

[why_me]

So why do we have evil on earth as according to your statement we would not be given bodies unless we were followers of Christ before we were born as humans here on earth. Unless all people who are not followers here on earth of Jesus are really demons.

Makes no sense and do not know where you get this from? sounds more like a legal document then scripture.

Since heavenly father’s plan seems to be to allow us the opportunity to get a physical body and to have us all return to him through our own free agency, satan wishes to destroy our bodies and also prevent us from returning to God. Hence, the war in heaven as now become a war on earth. And it seems to me that Satan is winning.