Mormon pro-life? Hardly.

[dianaiad]

I certainly have the right to make comments about the LDS policy on abortion when it amounts to allowing unborn children to be murdered. I am learning from this discussion the LDS policy is even more liberal than I thought it was since there is no need to get approval from a Bishop to excuse an abortion. I would expect many LDS women in this situation might simply say I’m covered by the exception so this baby can die.

Sorry, but no. A woman having an abortion without counseling with the Bishop and whoever he suggests (like professional counselors, LDS social services and physicians) IS going to be subject to church discipline. The decision she makes after such counseling, especially in prayer and the willingness to obey the spirit, is hers,

I’ve never been IN this situation, so I asked a former bishop what he did in those situations. He told me that the Bishop’s role is to counsel, to advise and to guide, not to make pronouncements. He does not tell the woman ‘go ahead,’ or 'you may not do this."

He’s there to help, not to make that decision FOR her.

Evidently this approach works rather well, given the abortion rates among Mormons.

 

[Catholic20064]

Apparently, Mormons don’t have a clue when the pre-existent spirit enters the physical body. If the spirit enters the body prior to birth and the body is aborted, how could that spirit be given a new body? LDS aren’t saying that when a two hour old baby dies that that baby’s spirit could enter a new body. Why would that be true if the baby dies in the womb? It seems to me the only safe case would be to protect all life from the time of conception regardless of what one might think of pre-existent spirits. If the spirit enters the body at conception you would indeed be killing a real person so why take the chance by allowing any abortions?

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons raise the fallacy of composition quit often to justify times when the Mormon Church declares a class of humanity as less than equal to the rest of humanity. On this thread it came as quickly as post #4, the first Mormon post. It has been repeated by every Mormon poster so far (see post #14, #34).

 

[Stephen168]

Didache:

And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

 

[Catholic20064]

Stephen168:
Perhaps Mormons think the strict teaching on abortion in the Didache came from an apostate church. That’s why it was necessary to restore the true teaching on abortion.

 

[crazzeto]

The mormons have a good record with not having abortions. In fact, better than the catholics. Most mormons would never consider having an abortion. In salt lake, LDS Social Services would encourage adoption. But when the life of the mother is threatened, it is permitted to have an abortion. We need to remember that the lds have a different way of looking at preexistence. An abortion would not prevent a spirit from receiving a potential body.

The mormon church clearly has a poor record with abortion, based upon their own documentation. And that’s a problem, that the church under any circomstance would approve of Abortion, that a Bishop would tell a member that “it’s between you, your husband and God”. Really? No, the Church is there to uphold and defend the truth, if it fails to then the Church will fall ultimatly. The Catholic Church has taken this seriously for 2,000 with the guidence of the holy spirit, this is the reason why it has out lived the Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Spanish Empire, French Empire, British Empire… And well, the list goes on and on.

 

[dianaiad]

The mormon church clearly has a poor record with abortion, based upon their own documentation.

Indeed? When we have two thirds FEWER abortions, relatively, than Catholics do–by ANY accounting you want to use?

And that’s a problem, that the church under any circomstance would approve of Abortion, that a Bishop would tell a member that “it’s between you, your husband and God”. Really? No, the Church is there to uphold and defend the truth, if it fails to then the Church will fall ultimatly. The Catholic Church has taken this seriously for 2,000 with the guidence of the holy spirit, this is the reason why it has out lived the Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Spanish Empire, French Empire, British Empire… And well, the list goes on and on.

Yes, you can point to a great many strongly worded condemnations of several things…abortion being one of them, that indicate your stand on this. However, a church is not paperwork. A church is the people in it; what they believe and what they do about those beliefs.

What Catholics do about their beliefs regarding abortion is…they have them at three times the rate Mormons do. Given this, you can understand, I hope. that the most your condemnation of our stand on abortion will get from us is a raised eyebrow and some contemplation about scriptures like, oh…Matt. 6: 5. You may delight in saying that Catholics abhore abortion, and that Catholicism is wholly against it, and take comfort in saying so.

And that will be your reward, because Catholic women have abortions only slightly less often than non-Catholic women do, unless, of course, the non-Catholic women involved are Mormon, and then they have it…what was that figure again…oh, yeah. Three times more often.

So if it makes you feel better to brag about your official stand on this, go ahead. I’d rather cuddle the baby that the Mormon woman will give birth to–the one whose life was three times more likely to have ended had Mom been Catholic.

 

[hmm]

So if it makes you feel better to brag about your official stand on this, go ahead. I’d rather cuddle the baby that the Mormon woman will give birth to–the one whose life was three times more likely to have ended had Mom been Catholic.

Dianaiad -

I’ve really enjoyed reading your responses because you seem to take your time with your answers and your tone is noncombative, but your whole premise is inherently flawed. Over and over again, you quote numbers, ratios, rates on Mormon abortions vs. Catholic abortions. Though it might seem that the Mormons trump the Catholics based on your intel, it simply isn’t so for one main reason: no honest Catholic will ever, in any circumstance, have an abortion

That’s a loaded statement, I know, so let me explain. When I say “honest Catholic” I mean those that follow the Magisterium of the Church. I mean the people who are in line with what the Church teaches. I mean those who practice what they are taught sincerely. That’s what the title of “Catholic” should mean in all cases, but most often we hear of people who label themselves with the title, though it doesn’t fit. This is also true for Mormons. Would I be considered a Mormon if I was baptized Mormon, but didn’t agree with or believe the fundamental tenets of Mormon theology? Are many self-proclaimed “jack Mormons” really Mormons or is that just a title they give themselves?

Do you see what I’m saying? Those studies you’ve read and are citing aren’t accurate because they don’t give you any indication of what is in the person’s heart. Are they really Catholic or do they just associate themselves with Catholicism, though they don’t follow the Church’s teachings?

There are soo many good things about the people in the Mormon church - and one of them is the widely-accepted mostly pro-life stance. I respect that immensely. But the church I’m sticking with is the one that, amoung other things, teaches its members to have a fully pro-life stance. For a “Catholic” to go against what they are taught dogmatically says nothing of the truth of the church so much as the wisdom of the church-goer, and thus are making a decision as a human (who can be wrong) and not as a Catholic (who is in line with the true Church of Christ - and therefore, can’t be wrong in matters of faith and morals).

That’s all.

hmm

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons raise the fallacy of composition quit often to justify times when the Mormon Church declares a class of humanity as less than equal to the rest of humanity. On this thread it came as quickly as post #4, the first Mormon post. It has been repeated by every Mormon poster so far

(see post #14, #34, #47)

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad -

I’ve really enjoyed reading your responses because you seem to take your time with your answers and your tone is noncombative, but your whole premise is inherently flawed. Over and over again, you quote numbers, ratios, rates on Mormon abortions vs. Catholic abortions. Though it might seem that the Mormons trump the Catholics based on your intel, it simply isn’t so for one main reason: no honest Catholic will ever, in any circumstance, have an abortion

Ah. the True Scott fallacy…No True Catholic would have an abortion? No True Catholic would lie? No True Catholic would say they believe one thing and do another? No True Catholic would sin?

Are there then any True Catholics? For there has only been One perfect Man, and none of us are Him.

What of the woman who has an abortion…then repents and goes to confession? Is she then a True Catholic again? Why was she ever NOT a “True Catholic?”

That’s a loaded statement, I know, so let me explain. When I say “honest Catholic” I mean those that follow the Magisterium of the Church. I mean the people who are in line with what the Church teaches. I mean those who practice what they are taught sincerely. That’s what the title of “Catholic” should mean in all cases, but most often we hear of people who label themselves with the title, though it doesn’t fit. This is also true for Mormons. Would I be considered a Mormon if I was baptized Mormon, but didn’t agree with or believe the fundamental tenets of Mormon theology? Are many self-proclaimed “jack Mormons” really Mormons or is that just a title they give themselves?

You are asking the wrong woman for this one. If someone is nutty enough to claim to BE a Mormon, then he’s a Mormon unless he knows he’s lying. He may not be LDS (a member of the largest group) or active in the church–or he might have some very off the rail ideas (well, off the rail for Mormonism…). Shoot, he might even be a Trinitarian! But if he thinks he’s a Mormon, then he is. He may well not have completely “Mormon” ideas, but that’s different.

Do you see what I’m saying?

Yes…but unfortunately, it doesn’t work. What’s the difference between a Catholic woman who has an abortion and then repents, gaining absolution and full fellowship in the church—and a Mormon woman who thoughtfully, prayerfully, made this decision with full support and the counsel of professionals, religious leaders and her family?

Two times out of three, the difference is that the Mormon baby actually gets born.

Those studies you’ve read and are citing aren’t accurate because they don’t give you any indication of what is in the person’s heart. Are they really Catholic or do they just associate themselves with Catholicism, though they don’t follow the Church’s teachings?

They identify as Catholic…and if they repent, go to confession and recieve absolution, the automatic excommunication they suffered as a result of having committed the sin is lifted by the priest during that confession process (this according to “Ask an Apologist” here on CAF). They are as “True” a Catholic as the most chaste and sincere of nuns.

Basically, if the only True Catholics are those who never sin against the teachings of the chruch, then…there aren’t any true Catholics.

There are soo many good things about the people in the Mormon church - and one of them is the widely-accepted mostly pro-life stance. I respect that immensely. But the church I’m sticking with is the one that, amoung other things, teaches its members to have a fully pro-life stance. For a “Catholic” to go against what they are taught dogmatically says nothing of the truth of the church so much as the wisdom of the church-goer, and thus are making a decision as a human (who can be wrong) and not as a Catholic (who is in line with the true Church of Christ - and therefore, can’t be wrong in matters of faith and morals).

That’s all.

hmm

You should stay where your faith is, always. You should live your faith. I have absolutely no problem with people who actually behave as if what they say they believe is true. That’s faith.

The thing is, I’m not going to let a group that has a rate of abortion three times higher than ours criticise us for not being ‘pro-life’ enough for them. I think you can understand that one.

 

[Stephen168]

Though it might seem that the Mormons trump the Catholics based on your intel, it simply isn’t so for one main reason: no honest Catholic will ever, in any circumstance, have an abortion

That’s a loaded statement, I know, so let me explain. When I say “honest Catholic” I mean those that follow the Magisterium of the Church.

I agree. Having an abortion is a mortal sin and by that act places a person outside the Church, so at a minimum they can no longer receive communion and they might have excommunicated them selves. This is because the Catholic Church knows and teaches all humanity is sacred and not to be murdered. The Mormon Church teaches that parts of humanity can be murdered.

Do you see what I’m saying? Those studies you’ve read and are citing aren’t accurate because they don’t give you any indication of what is in the person’s heart. Are they really Catholic or do they just associate themselves with Catholicism, though they don’t follow the Church’s teachings?

I have a niece who was never baptized and of course not raised Catholic. On her MySpace page, under religion, she lists herself as Catholic. I just shook my head.

 

[Sunstone]

Mormons often politically align with the pro-life postion. Some actually are pro-life, but then, as you’ve pointed out, that isn’t the LDS Church’s official stance.

This shouldn’t be a suprise to Mormons as there are frequently pro-life protesters at LDS General Conference.

 

[crazzeto]

Indeed? When we have two thirds FEWER abortions, relatively, than Catholics do–by ANY accounting you want to use?

Yet your Church does in fact support abortion at least in some cases, and your Bishops seem to stay clear of the issue when it comes up.

Yes, you can point to a great many strongly worded condemnations of several things…abortion being one of them, that indicate your stand on this. However, a church is not paperwork. A church is the people in it; what they believe and what they do about those beliefs.

What Catholics do about their beliefs regarding abortion is…they have them at three times the rate Mormons do. Given this, you can understand, I hope. that the most your condemnation of our stand on abortion will get from us is a raised eyebrow and some contemplation about scriptures like, oh…Matt. 6: 5. You may delight in saying that Catholics abhore abortion, and that Catholicism is wholly against it, and take comfort in saying so.

And that will be your reward, because Catholic women have abortions only slightly less often than non-Catholic women do, unless, of course, the non-Catholic women involved are Mormon, and then they have it…what was that figure again…oh, yeah. Three times more often.

So if it makes you feel better to brag about your official stand on this, go ahead. I’d rather cuddle the baby that the Mormon woman will give birth to–the one whose life was three times more likely to have ended had Mom been Catholic.

There’s no cure for a leadership failure like this, abortion should never be supported are seen as being justified, not in any case. Are there bad Catholics? Sure, and the Church is constantly finding new ways to reach them and educate them. The Catholic Church has stood the test of time specifically because it doesn’t change, it doesn’t change doctrine on Morals and Faith. It is a constant rock, no matter how wrong the personal beliefs of a particular mis-informed Catholic might be, the Church is always a rock, a constant navigational point guiding all the faithful back to the truth.

Can you say the same for LDS?

 

[dianaiad]

Yet your Church does in fact support abortion at least in some cases, and your Bishops seem to stay clear of the issue when it comes up.

There’s no cure for a leadership failure like this, abortion should never be supported are seen as being justified, not in any case. Are there bad Catholics? Sure, and the Church is constantly finding new ways to reach them and educate them. The Catholic Church has stood the test of time specifically because it doesn’t change, it doesn’t change doctrine on Morals and Faith. It is a constant rock, no matter how wrong the personal beliefs of a particular mis-informed Catholic might be, the Church is always a rock, a constant navigational point guiding all the faithful back to the truth.

Can you say the same for LDS?

We believe in continuous revelation…but that said, the basics stay the same.

but I guess we are talking past each other.

As long as you are comfortable with the idea that as long as ON PAPER, Catholics will never have an abortion for any reason, even when the abortion (murder of the unborn) rate for Catholics is so much higher than for the group you are calling a bunch of murderers, then fine.

Hypocrisy is an ugly word…and an uglier reality.

 

[hmm]

As long as you are comfortable with the idea that as long as ON PAPER, Catholics will never have an abortion for any reason, even when the abortion (murder of the unborn) rate for Catholics is so much higher than for the group you are calling a bunch of murderers, then fine.

Dianaiad -

Catholics don’t have abortions. People who call themselves Catholic but who don’t practice what the church teaches have abortions. What these people are doing is separating themselves from their mother church, and therefore cannot be considered true Catholics. They affiliate though they shouldn’t, and thus are representing the church falsely. It is those people who are falsely affiliated with the Catholic Church who are committing abortions.

If someone is nutty enough to claim to BE a Mormon, then he’s a Mormon unless he knows he’s lying. He may not be LDS (a member of the largest group) or active in the church–or he might have some very off the rail ideas (well, off the rail for Mormonism…). Shoot, he might even be a Trinitarian! But if he thinks he’s a Mormon, then he is. He may well not have completely “Mormon” ideas, but that’s different.

The Catholic Church doesn’t work the same way as the Mormon church does (based on what you’ve said). One is not considered a Catholic unless they are in full communion with the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether or not they considered themselves Catholic - there is a standard they must meet. Having an abortion, as Stephen168 already stated, places a Catholic who could have been previously in full communion with the Church, outside of the Church, making them not Catholic, despite their personal opinion.

Now, you did make a good point that going to Confession and receiving absolution can place a person who has the stain of the sin of abortion on their soul back into the Church, however, that doesn’t change the fact that when the abortion was being done, that person was separated from the Church. They were not Catholic in the true meaning of label.

So, perhaps ON PAPER, it may look like the Mormons have less abortions than the Catholics, but in reality, no person can ever be having an abortion and be considered a true Catholic by the Catholic Church at the same time… Mormons can be.

From what I’ve read on this thread, that’s all that is fundamentally being asserted by us Catholics. Our Church is 100% pro-life, while the Mormon church isn’t - though it is true that those people who affiliate with the Mormon church have far less abortions than those people who affiliate with the Catholic church. But as I’ve pointed out, affiliation doesn’t make someone a Catholic in the eyes of the Catholic Church, though in your opinion, it makes someone a Mormon.


hmm

 

[Stephen168]

Can you say the same for LDS?

Not at all. In the case of abortion they are moving backwards. This makes the priesthood base against another class of humanity seem like nothing. In 1978, Mormonism seemed to be moving forward but by declaring another class of humanity to be eligible for murder they have moved backwards. Way backwards. All we can hope for is another ‘revelation.’ Hopeful more inline with ancient Christian teaching.

 

[ParkerD]

Dianaiad -

Catholics don’t have abortions. People who call themselves Catholic but who don’t practice what the church teaches have abortions. What these people are doing is separating themselves from their mother church, and therefore cannot be considered true Catholics. They affiliate though they shouldn’t, and thus are representing the church falsely. It is those people who are falsely affiliated with the Catholic Church who are committing abortions.

The Catholic Church doesn’t work the same way as the Mormon church does (based on what you’ve said). One is not considered a Catholic unless they are in full communion with the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether or not they considered themselves Catholic - there is a standard they must meet. Having an abortion, as Stephen168 already stated, places a Catholic who could have been previously in full communion with the Church, outside of the Church, making them not Catholic, despite their personal opinion.

Now, you did make a good point that going to Confession and receiving absolution can place a person who has the stain of the sin of abortion on their soul back into the Church, however, that doesn’t change the fact that when the abortion was being done, that person was separated from the Church. They were not Catholic in the true meaning of label.

So, perhaps ON PAPER, it may look like the Mormons have less abortions than the Catholics, but in reality, no person can ever be having an abortion and be considered a true Catholic by the Catholic Church at the same time… Mormons can be.

From what I’ve read on this thread, that’s all that is fundamentally being asserted by us Catholics. Our Church is 100% pro-life, while the Mormon church isn’t - though it is true that those people who affiliate with the Mormon church have far less abortions than those people who affiliate with the Catholic church. But as I’ve pointed out, affiliation doesn’t make someone a Catholic in the eyes of the Catholic Church, though in your opinion, it makes someone a Mormon.


hmm

HMM,
If the Catholic church were 100% pro-life, then the cost to a young couple of their getting married would be -0-. How many times have I heard that as LDS missionaries have taught people, they needed to get married, and why hadn’t that happened in their past?–because of the cost. They or their families didn’t have the money.

 

[Stephen168]

If the Catholic church were 100% pro-life,then the cost to a young couple of their getting married would be -0-.

One has nothing to do with the other. This is an irrational statement. But lets go with it for fun:

If the Catholic church were 100% pro-life,

It is.

then the cost to a young couple of their getting married would be -0-.

It can be. Tradition suggests a small donation, but at my current Parish is it zero.

How many times have I heard that as LDS missionaries have taught people, they needed to get married, and why hadn’t that happened in their past?–because of the cost. They or their families didn’t have the money.

Sounds like an excuse. It is not a fact caused by the Catholic Church.

Are you suggesting the Mormon Church justifies murder due to being a single parent or being poor?

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad -

Catholics don’t have abortions. People who call themselves Catholic but who don’t practice what the church teaches have abortions. What these people are doing is separating themselves from their mother church, and therefore cannot be considered true Catholics. They affiliate though they shouldn’t, and thus are representing the church falsely. It is those people who are falsely affiliated with the Catholic Church who are committing abortions.

The Catholic Church doesn’t work the same way as the Mormon church does (based on what you’ve said). One is not considered a Catholic unless they are in full communion with the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether or not they considered themselves Catholic - there is a standard they must meet. Having an abortion, as Stephen168 already stated, places a Catholic who could have been previously in full communion with the Church, outside of the Church, making them not Catholic, despite their personal opinion.

Now, you did make a good point that going to Confession and receiving absolution can place a person who has the stain of the sin of abortion on their soul back into the Church, however, that doesn’t change the fact that when the abortion was being done, that person was separated from the Church. They were not Catholic in the true meaning of label.

So, perhaps ON PAPER, it may look like the Mormons have less abortions than the Catholics, but in reality, no person can ever be having an abortion and be considered a true Catholic by the Catholic Church at the same time… Mormons can be.

From what I’ve read on this thread, that’s all that is fundamentally being asserted by us Catholics. Our Church is 100% pro-life, while the Mormon church isn’t - though it is true that those people who affiliate with the Mormon church have far less abortions than those people who affiliate with the Catholic church. But as I’ve pointed out, affiliation doesn’t make someone a Catholic in the eyes of the Catholic Church, though in your opinion, it makes someone a Mormon.


hmm

Well, here’s the thing: according to what I have been told in here, baptism as a Catholic leaves a 'permanent mark on the soul." There is something different about someone who has been baptized Catholic…something not shared by anybody who is not Catholic, and that something remains no matter what happens.

For instance, according to what I have read, if a Catholic woman has an abortion and has suffered the automatic excommunication that results, she need not be rebaptized. She needs to go to confession, where the priest will lift that excommunication during the confessional process.

No Mormon can go to confession and have their sins absolved by a Catholic priest; and as far as I am aware, neither can anyone else who does not identify him/herself as Catholic. there is a process that must be gone through to become eligible for participation in that process. Once one has gone through that process, one need not go through it again if one sins–even a mortal sin. I think this is part of what is meant by “once a Catholic, always a Catholic.”

Now this woman may have this sin of abortion absolved by simply going to confession. Everything is taken care of right then; she leaves in a state of grace, and is eligible for communion.

Simple. She walks into the booth, confesses…the priest absolves her…all is right again with the world and her soul.

…and no, I am not dismissing this; ‘simple’ doesn’t mean ‘easy.’ Doing this may be the hardest thing a woman ever does, so don’t think that I am mocking the idea. I’m not. “Come Follow Me” is ALSO a simple thing to do, and few are able to do that, either.

The fact remains that if her repentence is real, and her intent is also real, then it IS simple to walk into a confessional booth and open one’s mouth; nothing simpler. Few things harder.

The point is, nobody but a Catholic can do that.

The other thing is…if your description of who is, and who is not, CAtholic holds true then there are no Catholics except those who are in a state of Grace; sinless. If that’s so, there aren’t many Catholics in the world, and none who are Catholic for any length of time.

As to being Mormon–the thing that makes a Mormon a Mormon is a belief that the Book of Mormon is worth following, and a wish to describe oneself as that.

Rather like what makes a Christian a Christian is a belief in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and a wish to be called Christian.

And what makes a Catholic a Catholic is a belief in the teachings of Catholicism and a wish to be called that.

NONE of these names indicate states of salvation. All they are is a description…a label…of what best describes the belief system one adheres to. Just as there are Mormons who are incorrect in their beliefs–and would not be members of the CoJCoLDS because their beliefs are so very different from ours–so are there Christians whose beliefs do not march with yours—and so there are Catholics who do not spend their entire lives in a perpetual state of grace.

They are still Catholic.

 

[dianaiad]

Not at all. In the case of abortion they are moving backwards. This makes the priesthood base against another class of humanity seem like nothing. In 1978, Mormonism seemed to be moving forward but by declaring another class of humanity to be eligible for murder they have moved backwards. Way backwards. All we can hope for is another ‘revelation.’ Hopeful more inline with ancient Christian teaching.

Sure…we could have another revelation and approach abortion the way you do…and the results would be similar; three times as many lives lost.