Mormon pro-life? Hardly.

[RebeccaJ]

There are other facts to consider.

1- Utah has one of the strictest abortion laws in the country. It matches to mormon belief. So if a mormon who wants an abortion that doesn’t meet their church criteria, she must go out of state. This alone will lower the abortion rate in UT.

While it is true that the laws are fairly strict, they do NOT preclude abortion for birth control, when advised by a physician. By the way, Arizona’s abortion laws are far more strict. Hugely so. Not that it matters—I"m just saying. The stats show that very few, if any, residents of Utah leave the state to have an abortion elsewhere.

I am in agreement with you that UT has a low abortion rate. However, living here, growing up Mormon, and knowing many Mormons, I’m well aware that most individual Mormons are concerned about keeping up appearances. There is also the Mormon tendency to protect “the church”. I’ve seen this first hand, in many ways, some very scandalous in nature. I’ve received advice from my own family to not report criminal activity of a Mormon, for the sake of not causing bad PR for “the church”.

I think your posts demonstrate this tendency. While Catholics are freely admiting that yes, Catholics sin. Your focus is entirely on this fact. Look, Catholics sin. How many times have you repeated this? Yet, you continue to tell us Mormons have this unusual righteousness going on. I think you understand, from my experience, Mormon “righteousness” is not based in much of a reality. Skeptical, is a mild way of putting it.

At any rate, Mormons do not tell people about serious personal sin. Including people taking polls. Anything to protect themselves, and most especially “the church”.

2- a mormon who has an abortion and confesses will in all likelihood be excommunicated. This is not the same action as it is for a Catholic. A excommunicated mormon is no longer a mormon. Their baptism, and other mormon “ordinances” are made invalid. A Catholic in a similar position is still Catholic.

this is true. However, it certainly does put a crimp in the 'no true Catholic would have an abortion" argument, doesn’t it? Yeah, when a Mormon woman has an unnecessary abortion, the consequences are, generally, as you describe. I think that’s another difference between Catholicism and Mormonism in terms of abortion; Catholics put the sin of abortion in the same class as absconding with communion wafers. It’s an ‘automatic excommunication’ that is lifted upon confession and absolution. Mormons–it’s an official excommunication with all the bells and whistles.

Well, I’m not on board with the “no true Catholic” thing. All people sin. This includes every Catholic. You know, cast the first stone?

As for “sin category”. First, it is a sin to desecrate the Body of Christ. You may not know this Truth. Catholics do. But you can think for a moment on what it means to desecrate GOD. And yes, imagine that, this is a sin.

I think also, this thread generally, is forgetting the most important aspect of Christian understanding. All people sin. All can turn to God for forgiveness. The Catholic Church teaches which sins are mortal and which sins are not. So yes, the Catholic Church absolutely teaches blasphemy against God is a mortal sin. Also, abortion is a mortal sin. The Catholic Church also teaches God died to redeem us from our sin. Really. Truly. Unconditional love. All one has to do is have a contrite heart and confess. God forgives, and forgets.

This is the Good News of the Gospel (not Joseph Smith).

As for “bells and whistles”. That is a funny way of glossing over a process that includes an unofficial form of shunning. And, the fact that the person is no longer Mormon. So it is rather convenient, don’t you think?

Imagine a pollster asking a person who has been excommunicated by the Mormon Church for an abortion. “What religion are you?” None. “Have you had an abortion?” Yes. Lookee there, no Mormons have abortions. Amazing! Makes your statistics pointless, don’t you think?

The same questions for a Catholic in a similar situation…the answer is yes, to both questions.

Like I said, anything to protect “the church”.

3- Also, a mormon who had an abortion is not likely to tell anyone. On the other hand, the Catholic pro-life movement has women who had an abortion, regret it, and now are very active pro-life. Testimonials of how their decision effected their life and their health (physical and mental). Nothing like this exists in mormon circles.

They tell the people at the clinic where they get the abortions–which is where my stats come from.

Of course they do. What, do you think I meant a woman requesting to kill her unborn child is keeping this a secret from the person who will actually do the killing?

You know I meant PUBLIC disclosure. You can google for Catholic women (and women of other religions) who put their testimonials up for the world to see. Women who speak at live gatherings of people. Of course, not all women who have had an abortion do. I understand people wanting their privacy. But there are women who feel very strongly the world should understand, the decision they made, is regrettable. Their decision was wrong. They hope to reach out to other women who are thinking of making this choice to kill their own child, for ANY reason. Where is the voice of Mormon women?

Wanna bet? You haven’t been dealing with the LDS Family Services organization much, have you?

I am well aware that your LDS Family Services counsels women to have their baby. This is good. I have no argument there.

But again, I think you know I meant something in a public space.

 

[Stephen168]

There are other facts to consider.

1- Utah has one of the strictest abortion laws in the country. It matches to mormon belief. So if a mormon who wants an abortion that doesn’t meet their church criteria, she must go out of state. This alone will lower the abortion rate in UT.

2- a mormon who has an abortion and confesses will in all likelihood be excommunicated. This is not the same action as it is for a Catholic. A excommunicated mormon is no longer a mormon. Their baptism, and other mormon “ordinances” are made invalid. A Catholic in a similar position is still Catholic.

3- Also, a mormon who had an abortion is not likely to tell anyone. On the other hand, the Catholic pro-life movement has women who had an abortion, regret it, and now are very active pro-life. Testimonials of how their decision effected their life and their health (physical and mental). Nothing like this exists in mormon circles.

Thanks, Rebecca. It seems that any statistics on Mormon’s having abortions is almost meaningless.

 

[Stephen168]

ISo, as others have said, the Catholic Church is firmly against abortion, and one cannot ignore that Catholics that have abortions are going against the clear teaching of their Church. The LDS church allows abortion of pregnancies resulting from rape or incest, when the life or health of the mother is in danger, and when the physician determines that the fetus has defects that won’t allow it to survive beyond birth. The Mormon abortion rate is still low despite this, which is great, however what others were attempting to address in this thread was the official policy of their church.

Thank You. My point exactly.

 

[hmm]

Well, I’m not on board with the “no true Catholic” thing. All people sin. This includes every Catholic. You know, cast the first stone?

I believe a previous post I made is the reference Dianaiad is making - my point there was only to say that when a Catholic is having/supporting an abortion, they are not in communion with the church when they are doing so.

I can see how my posts would be misleading, but that’s all I meant to address.

hmm

 

[Stephen168]

United States laws define “murder” in certain ways,

which do not encompass what has been stated above.

There are three ways in which a human being ends up dead: Murder, Accident or Self defense

. Murder is the killing of an innocent person, which applies above. Yes, there are other words we use for murder depending who we are murdering: infants, Mothers, self, unborn, or brothers, etc.; but they are all murder. Calling it abortion doesn’t change the fact The Mormon Church teaches murder of an unborn is OK.

The Mormon Church teaches the murder of an unborn baby can be OK in some situations. We know the Catholic Church teaches that murder is wrong in every situation.

** “Murder” is defined as**

the willful and premeditated unlawful killing of a human being by another human being. Calling a killing ‘murder’ is making the judgment that it is wrong. It’s true; murder is wrong in every situation, because murder is always wrong, by definition. The question, however, is whether a killing is murder. ** Causing the death of another isn’t always murder, and the Catholic church is aware of that**. After all, Catholics may go to war, become police officers and front line rescuers. By defining all abortions as murder is begging a very big question.
Of course, the Catholic church gets around it by saying that the ending of one human life in order to save another isn’t murder–or abortion–if the INTENT is to save the life of the mother, not to kill the baby, even if the procedure to save the mother’s life happens to be the removal of the baby–thus killing it.
**I find this playing with words to be…equivocation and sophistry. **

What she is trying to do is define accidents as murder
dianaiad;6040902:

…and where am I attempting to do that, Stephen?

and then claim the Catholic Church accepts murder in some situations, too.

**Actually, I claim that you are quite willing to cause the death of the unborn in some cases where the pregnancy has put the mother’s life is at stake, and weasel your way around that by ignoring the fact that there is a life being lost when you treat the mother. **

 

[dianaiad]

I am in agreement with you that UT has a low abortion rate. However, living here, growing up Mormon, and knowing many Mormons, I’m well aware that most individual Mormons are concerned about keeping up appearances. There is also the Mormon tendency to protect “the church”. I’ve seen this first hand, in many ways, some very scandalous in nature. I’ve received advice from my own family to not report criminal activity of a Mormon, for the sake of not causing bad PR for “the church”.

Rebecca, I think you are missing the point of my protests here. Putting it very baldly, it’s not about Catholics admitting (or not admitting) that Catholics sin. That has nothing to do with it. My point is that I do not think that Catholics have any business criticising Mormons for their stand on abortion–because the fact is, Catholics have three times more abortions than we do, in spite of the Catholic zero tolerance policy on the matter.

…and you notice that I concentrated on stats that are more relevant to the situation; Utah and it’s percentage of Mormons (and it’s very low abortion rate) and Rhode Island, with a comparable percentage of Catholics–and it’s very HIGH abortion rate. That does not involve members of either church attempting to save face for their belief system. After all, it would be a great deal easier for a Rhode Islander to go to a different state for an abortion than it is for a Utahn. For a Rhode Islander, it’s a half hour commute.

For a Utahn, it’s usually a day’s or more drive. So the stats, being STATE stats, apply.

Your opinion of Mormon '‘cya’ is noted, and it’s true, too. Perhaps not to the extent that you present it, but still… Every minority religion/race/group has that problem, including Catholics. I have seen the same tendency in Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Jews–you name it. After all, right here in this thread is a perfect example of a Catholic doing precisely that, with her 'no true Catholic would have an abortion…"

It’s a valid concern, too. How many times have you seen the headlines describing the arrest of somebody, with the words: ‘Catholic deacon is arrested…" or “Church Elder caught…” or “Sunday School teacher nabbed…” or "Baptist leader questioned…’ or …you know what happens.

I think your posts demonstrate this tendency. While Catholics are freely admiting that yes, Catholics sin. Your focus is entirely on this fact. Look, Catholics sin. How many times have you repeated this? Yet, you continue to tell us Mormons have this unusual righteousness going on. I think you understand, from my experience, Mormon “righteousness” is not based in much of a reality. Skeptical, is a mild way of putting it.

It’s a little difficult, even for someone on your side of the conversation, to be sceptical of EVERY study that says Catholics have abortions at three to five times the rate that Mormons do, no matter what method is used to gather the data.

My point, again put baldly, is the same point Christ made when He came upon those men about to stone the adultress: let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

From where I sit, for a Catholic–as a representative of Catholicism…(that is, basing his criticism upon the Catholic position on abortion) to be critical of the LDS position on abortion is like …

having the murderer of three children stone a man because he only rescued two of the three children he was protecting. It is ludicrous. It is beyond an insult. WHEN Catholics, as a group, show that they actually pay attention to their own stand on abortion, then an argument against the LDS doctrine might be worth discussing. Y’all still wouldn’t be RIGHT, mind you, but at least it would be worth the discussion on the merits of the doctrines.

 

[dianaiad]

At any rate, Mormons do not tell people about serious personal sin. Including people taking polls. Anything to protect themselves, and most especially “the church”.

Ah, but the state stats are not about self identification, Rebecca. As well, it would be rather difficult for a woman in a Mormon household to have an abortion in secret–and any woman having one for the ‘wrong’ reasons is excommunicated. We take that very seriously indeed, and we’ll excommunicate ANYBODY who does it. Since there is no stigma attached to having one when it is medically required (as there is a stigma attached to Catholic women who do, even when the woman’s life is in the balance) there is no reason for a Mormon NOT to admit to having one in that case. (shrug)

In fact, it’s more likely that a Catholic woman would lie about it than a Mormon woman would, in that situation, seems to me. Ah, well.

Y’know, it’s like…me criticizing Catholics for being unhealthy eaters, because we have the Word of Wisdom. Yes, we have that…but I look around at my fellow ward members (and at me in the mirror) and realize that we don’t obey it the way we should. We have NO right to criticize anybody else’s health code–Seventh Day Adventist, Jew or Budhist. True, we do tend to have a healthier group of people, when we DO follow the Word of Wisdom, but only when we do–and that’s the point.

It would be hypocritical of me to criticize any Catholic coffee drinker. Y’all would look at me with disdain and disbelief in my chutspah. Now multiply that feeling by about, oh…three, and you get the general reaction of Mormons to having a Catholic criticise them for their stand on abortion. Disbelief and bemusement would be a mild description. You already know that my reaction to this is not mild. This is not, after all, about caffiene or a glass of wine at dinner. This is about LIFE. Innocent human life. IT’s about the fact that when a Catholic woman faces this choice, she is three times more likely to kill the baby than a Mormon woman is. Since this is so, I think that Catholics who are upset about the abortion rate should take the time they are spending in criticizing the LDS doctrine on this issue, and go save that Catholic infant about to lose his/her life. When Catholic actions march with Catholic policy, THEN come preach to us.

Well, I’m not on board with the “no true Catholic” thing. All people sin. This includes every Catholic. You know, cast the first stone?

And that, m’friend, is MY point. I’m not the one casting stones here. I’m pointing out that the stone throwers should put the rocks down–or at least wait until there is a mirror in the target range.

As for “sin category”. First, it is a sin to desecrate the Body of Christ. You may not know this Truth. Catholics do.

I’m aware that you believe this to be so. Since you believe it is, then it is…and I’m not being facetious there. Please remember, though–WE do not believe that communion wafers are the Body of Christ. To us, those wafers are…bread baked with a special recipe for a special purpose. This is not to denigrate YOUR faith in them–your faith makes them far more than that, to you. I understand this.

However, I read the list of sins that result in the same automatic excommunication that abortion does, and you have to admit that to a non-Catholic, it is an eclectic, if not downright wierd, list.

…an apostate, heretic or schizmatic;
…anybody who declares that abortion may not be a grevious mortal sin
…anybody who votes for a pro-choice politician
…anybody who helps procure an abortion
…simony
…anyone who physically attacks the Pope or a Bishop.
…any politician who supports, votes for, or even considers, a bill that allows abortion in any manner (this is what got the Kennedys in trouble)
…the bit about throwing away or stealing the Host
…a priest who violates the seal of confession
…a woman who tries to become a priest, and anybody who attempts to ordain her.
…a priest, monk or nun who gets married
…anobody who falsely accuses a priest of trying to get a penitent to murder someone during the confessional. (good heavens. Why did anybody come up with THAT one? there has to be quite a story there…)
…anybody who waits more than a month to mention that he was molested by a priest.
…anybody who messes with Papal elections.
…a Bishop who ordains another Bishop without Papal authority. (Now, THAT one is intrigueing!)

Anyway, none of these (except abortion) seem to a non-Catholic to be all that horrific. I can understand that YOU feel that these things are mortal sins…but I am struck not so much by what is there, but rather by what is not.

Murder isn’t.
Rape isn’t.
Theft isn’t.
Gossip is not.
All of the things on this list have to do with doctrine and church hierarchical matters that affect eclesiastical procedure; even the prohibitions against physically attacking the Pope or a Bishop aren’t addressing the persons, but objecting to the attack on people holding a specific eclesiastical office. They are matters of faith,not of every day mortal dealings that would affect anybody who was not Catholic.

Yet abortion stands out here. I have to wonder why it is classified HERE.

Since murderers are not automatically excommunicated–or excommunicated at all, come to think of it…I have to consider that it is not the taking of a life that is the problem. So…what is?

 

[dianaiad]

But you can think for a moment on what it means to desecrate GOD. And yes, imagine that, this is a sin.

I think also, this thread generally, is forgetting the most important aspect of Christian understanding. All people sin. All can turn to God for forgiveness. The Catholic Church teaches which sins are mortal and which sins are not. So yes, the Catholic Church absolutely teaches blasphemy against God is a mortal sin. Also, abortion is a mortal sin. The Catholic Church also teaches God died to redeem us from our sin. Really. Truly. Unconditional love. All one has to do is have a contrite heart and confess. God forgives, and forgets.

This is the Good News of the Gospel (not Joseph Smith).

As for “bells and whistles”. That is a funny way of glossing over a process that includes an unofficial form of shunning. And, the fact that the person is no longer Mormon. So it is rather convenient, don’t you think?

For whom? They were Mormon when they had the abortion. They probably consider themselves to be Mormon while excommunicated (and in fact, they are…) They simply are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They may be members again. Remember, for us excommunication is NOT a form of shunning. Excommunicants are encouraged to attend church and associate with church members and attend classes. They may not partake of the sacrament, hold the priesthood or hold jobs, but the idea is to come BACK.

Imagine a pollster asking a person who has been excommunicated by the Mormon Church for an abortion. “What religion are you?” None. “Have you had an abortion?” Yes. Lookee there, no Mormons have abortions. Amazing! Makes your statistics pointless, don’t you think?

Since Mormon women who have had abortions are either fully supported in their decision, and thus NOT excommunicated, or were LDS at the time they had one and would answer that question when asked at the time, your question is a little silly.

Not to mention that, since the stats comparing Utah and Rhode Island don’t depend upon asking the religion of the women involved at all, your objection is moot.

The same questions for a Catholic in a similar situation…the answer is yes, to both questions.

Like I said, anything to protect “the church”.

Of course they do. What, do you think I meant a woman requesting to kill her unborn child is keeping this a secret from the person who will actually do the killing?

You know I meant PUBLIC disclosure. You can google for Catholic women (and women of other religions) who put their testimonials up for the world to see. Women who speak at live gatherings of people. Of course, not all women who have had an abortion do. I understand people wanting their privacy. But there are women who feel very strongly the world should understand, the decision they made, is regrettable. Their decision was wrong. They hope to reach out to other women who are thinking of making this choice to kill their own child, for ANY reason. Where is the voice of Mormon women?

Where I told you they were…and you will find them in pro-life and anti-abortion groups everywhere. Mind you, there are something like 73 million Catholics in the USA, and only about 6 million Mormons. That’s…what…one Mormon for every 12 Catholics? If our abortion rates were the same, that still means that for every Mormon woman who expressed regret for an ‘illegal’ abortion, there would be 12 Catholic women doing so. When you add in the other issues, like the fact that Catholic women are three times more likely to have abortions than Mormon women are, and that many of the Mormon women, though they may mourne the loss of their children, understand that they had no choice in the matter, the numbers are even more skewed; for every Mormon woman who might write about how horrible she was, and what a mistake she made, you should find 40 or 50 Catholic women doing that.

I am well aware that your LDS Family Services counsels women to have their baby. This is good. I have no argument there.

But again, I think you know I meant something in a public space.

Excuse me, but you seem to have a strange definition of ‘public space.’ It’s public only when it is NOT LDS? Since when is a Catholic service specifically designed for Catholic women any more ‘public’ than LDS Family Services?

 

[dianaiad]

Thanks, Rebecca. It seems that any statistics on Mormon’s having abortions is almost meaningless.

I know you take comfort in that idea, Stephen. How unfortunate for you that it is false comfort.

 

[RebeccaJ]

For whom? They were Mormon when they had the abortion. They probably consider themselves to be Mormon while excommunicated (and in fact, they are…) They simply are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They may be members again. Remember, for us excommunication is NOT a form of shunning. Excommunicants are encouraged to attend church and associate with church members and attend classes. They may not partake of the sacrament, hold the priesthood or hold jobs, but the idea is to come BACK.

Why pretend, when you know very well a excommunicated mormon is no longer a member? I suggest you talk to people who have been excommunicated. They are shunned. I know mormons like to deny this, but sorry, it is the norm. I have never heard of one person who was excommunicated that did not face some sort of shunning behavior.

Since Mormon women who have had abortions are either fully supported in their decision, and thus NOT excommunicated, or were LDS at the time they had one and would answer that question when asked at the time, your question is a little silly.

Indeed Diana, this is the crux. Fully supported=not understood as a sin. This is the entire point of this thread. Something you seem to be failing to grasp.

Every statistic you list for a Catholic, is a time a Catholic has committed a mortal sin. LDS teach it is all okee dokee to kill an unborn. Limited circumstances, which is better than all out pro-choice, but this stance does not make LDS pro-life. Pro-life means pro-life, without exception.

Not to mention that, since the stats comparing Utah and Rhode Island don’t depend upon asking the religion of the women involved at all, your objection is moot.

People don’t have abortions in UT, unless it is rape, incest, the health of the mother is seen as threatened or the unborn is seen as not viable. These are in fact rare cases for abortion. Abortion as a form of birth control is not allowed in UT. There are dr.s/clinics that fear losing their licenses for inadvertently performing a illegal abortion. Women must go outside of UT. This includes mormon women.

If you don’t believe this look up pro-choice sites and how they lament this fact.

Where I told you they were…and you will find them in pro-life and anti-abortion groups everywhere. Mind you, there are something like 73 million Catholics in the USA, and only about 6 million Mormons. That’s…what…one Mormon for every 12 Catholics?

Diana, perhaps you forget I live in UT. Where are these mormon women? In this population that is more than half LDS?

If our abortion rates were the same, that still means that for every Mormon woman who expressed regret for an ‘illegal’ abortion, there would be 12 Catholic women doing so. When you add in the other issues, like the fact that Catholic women are three times more likely to have abortions than Mormon women are, and that many of the Mormon women, though they may mourne the loss of their children, understand that they had no choice in the matter, the numbers are even more skewed; for every Mormon woman who might write about how horrible she was, and what a mistake she made, you should find 40 or 50 Catholic women doing that.

Not in UT. Here where mormons love to write about themselves and their experiences? Nada.

Excuse me, but you seem to have a strange definition of ‘public space.’ It’s public only when it is NOT LDS? Since when is a Catholic service specifically designed for Catholic women any more ‘public’ than LDS Family Services?

Public space Diana. The Internet?? Outside an abortion clinic on the sidewalk? Maybe you don’t realize PUBLIC space does not mean a space owned by the CoJCoLDS. Somewhere the PUBLIC can hear of the experiences of mormon women who have had an abortion. I certainly hope your LDS Family Services is not making this sort of information PUBLIC. It should be something a woman makes the choice to do, not be forced.

 

[dianaiad]

I believe a previous post I made is the reference Dianaiad is making - my point there was only to say that when a Catholic is having/supporting an abortion, they are not in communion with the church when they are doing so.

I can see how my posts would be misleading, but that’s all I meant to address.

hmm

I see. “No True Catholic” again.

the problem with your statement is that according to what I have been told, no Catholic is in communion with the church while they are sinning, no matter what the sin is. That’s why you have the sacrament of reconciliation…the confessional. It doesn’t matter what the sin is, the confessional is the way back to that state of grace, right?

What you are saying, then, is that no true Catholic ever sins. Of course, if that were true, there would be no need for the confessional–or no Catholics on the earth. I don’t think you are attempting to say that, are you?

 

[dianaiad]

Stephen168:
I"m sure you have a point with this, but blamed if I know what it is.

 

[dianaiad]

Why pretend, when you know very well a excommunicated mormon is no longer a member? I suggest you talk to people who have been excommunicated. They are shunned. I know mormons like to deny this, but sorry, it is the norm. I have never heard of one person who was excommunicated that did not face some sort of shunning behavior.

I know several. I also know a few who actually DID the ‘shunning,’ and blamed us.

Indeed Diana, this is the crux. Fully supported=not understood as a sin. This is the entire point of this thread. Something you seem to be failing to grasp.

My point is that you guys have no right to tell us that our stand on abortion is wrong, horrific or even ill advised when your membership as a whole is incredibly hypocritical about your own stand on the matter. Rather, you do have that right, because freedom of speech is sacrosanct. However, it deserves all the respect due the guy telling a bunch of teenagers they are going to hell because of their dancing–right after he has tipped the stripper.

Whether our stand on abortion is right or wrong is NOT an issue with me. I support our stand on it. What IS at issue with me is the incredible hypocrisy of a Catholic, representing Catholicism, accusing Mormons of being baby killers.

Y’all do NOT have the right to figure than anybody hearing you do so has to treat your criticism with anything but the contempt it deserves.

Every statistic you list for a Catholic, is a time a Catholic has committed a mortal sin. LDS teach it is all okee dokee to kill an unborn. Limited circumstances, which is better than all out pro-choice, but this stance does not make LDS pro-life. Pro-life means pro-life, without exception.

If that’s so, then Catholics are not pro-life…because they are only pro-life when the life is that of the unborn child. If the choice is…Have an abortion and one life is lost, or don’t have an abortion and both lives are lost, then you go with the 'both lives lost…" and that is NOT 'pro-life."

People don’t have abortions in UT, unless it is rape, incest, the health of the mother is seen as threatened or the unborn is seen as not viable. These are in fact rare cases for abortion. Abortion as a form of birth control is not allowed in UT. There are dr.s/clinics that fear losing their licenses for inadvertently performing a illegal abortion. Women must go outside of UT. This includes mormon women.

Ah, but the stats for states outside Utah do not reflect a massive influx of out-of-state (especially out-of-state from Utah) abortions. Which of course means that Utah women do NOT go elsewhere.

If you don’t believe this look up pro-choice sites and how they lament this fact.

Diana, perhaps you forget I live in UT. Where are these mormon women? In this population that is more than half LDS?

Not in UT. Here where mormons love to write about themselves and their experiences? Nada.

Public space Diana. The Internet?? Outside an abortion clinic on the sidewalk? Maybe you don’t realize PUBLIC space does not mean a space owned by the CoJCoLDS.

That’s what I thought. To you, if it is a space owned by the CoJCoLDS, then it is not ‘public space,’ even when it is seen by the public. Why doesn’t that apply to Catholic groups, for Catholic women, especially when those groups are not seen by any but Catholics?

 

[RebeccaJ]

My point is that you guys have no right to tell us that our stand on abortion is wrong, horrific or even ill advised when your membership as a whole is do incredibly hypocritical about your own stand on the matter. Rather, you do have that right, because freedom of speech is sacrosanct. However, it deserves all the respect due the guy telling a bunch of teenagers they are going to hell because of their dancing–right after he has tipped the stripper.

Maybe you see teaching dancing is a sin and tipping a stripper. What we see happening in mormonism is you can ask God if it is ok to a) become a stripper and b) tip the stripper. Then come here and tell us how the Catholic Church is in apostasy and we’re hypocrites.

It’s an amazing thing isn’t it? Make a sin not a sin, and there are no hypocrites. You are doing this with abortion.

You also seem to have troubles distinguishing between what a teaching is against sin and people who go against this teaching and commit a personal sin. Do you have this problem with Mormon teaching as well as Catholic?

Whether our stand on abortion is right or wrong is NOT an issue with me. I support our stand on it. What IS at issue with me is the incredible hypocrisy of a Catholic, representing Catholicism, accusing Mormons of being baby killers.

You do NOT have the right to figure than anybody hearing you do so has to treat your criticism with anything but the contempt it deserves.

Yes, I know, you support the killing of the unborn, and would like to come here to justify your horrific belief by having contempt for truth.

If that’s so, then Catholics are not pro-life…because they are only pro-life when the life is that of the unborn child. If the choice is…Have an abortion and one life is lost, or don’t have an abortion and both lives are lost, then you go with the 'both lives lost…" and that is NOT 'pro-life."

I think Stephen has already pointed out the straw man you have going here. Both lives are equal. Unlike your mormon belief, where the unborn is seen as disposable.

Ah, but the stats for states outside Utah do not reflect a massive influx of out-of-state (especially out-of-state from Utah) abortions. Which of course means that Utah women do NOT go elsewhere.

What stats are those? You seem to dig up what suits your POV. When I read the stats at Pew, pretty much, Mormons and Catholics give similar answers to abortion questions. They reflect the view of American society as a whole.

Except for Catholics who attend church at least once a week. Their answers to these questions are Catholic answers.

That’s what I thought. To you, if it is a space owned by the CoJCoLDS, then it is not ‘public space,’ even when it is seen by the public. Why doesn’t that apply to Catholic groups, for Catholic women, especially when those groups are not seen by any but Catholics?

Diana, please take the time to look up what public space means. It isn’t private property, Mormon, Catholic, or otherwise. Why be so obtuse?

 

[Stephen168]

What she is trying to do is define accidents as murder
dianaiad;6040902:

…and where am I attempting to do that, Stephen?

and then claim the Catholic Church accepts murder in some situations, too.

**Actually, I claim that you are quite willing to cause the death of the unborn in some cases where the pregnancy has put the mother’s life is at stake, and weasel your way around that by ignoring the fact that there is a life being lost when you treat the mother. **

If that’s so, then Catholics are not pro-life…because they are only pro-life when the life is that of the unborn child. If the choice is…Have an abortion and one life is lost, or don’t have an abortion and both lives are lost, then you go with the 'both lives lost…" and that is NOT 'pro-life."

 

[dianaiad]

Maybe you see teaching dancing is a sin and tipping a stripper.

what?

What I see is that a guy that rewards a stripper…and her sort of dancing, is a rank hypocrite if he turns around and criticizes teenagers for THEIR dancing. Given the extreme nature of exotic dancing, there really isn’t a length that teens can go to in their dance that would outstrip it…so to speak…

What we see happening in mormonism is you can ask God if it is ok to a) become a stripper and b) tip the stripper. Then come here and tell us how the Catholic Church is in apostasy and we’re hypocrites.

You are in apostasy. I can say that, y’know, just like you can say that Mormons are not Christian. What amazes me is that you get all out of whack and insulted when we use the 'A" word, but can’t understand why we would be a little miffed when you tell us that we aren’t Christians.

As for the hypocrite charge…well…we have group A that has a very strict, zero tolerance view of abortion. We have group B, that allows abortion in certain limited circumstances. In spite of the rule differences, group A has an abortion rate three times higher than group B. Ignoring this small problem, representatives of group A tells group B that they (group B) are baby killers, pro-abortion, anti-life, and murderers.

The word ‘hypocrite’ was invented to describe the actions of Group A, in this instance.

It’s an amazing thing isn’t it? Make a sin not a sin, and there are no hypocrites. You are doing this with abortion.

Actually, we certainly aren’t hypocrites about it. Our stand on abortion is what it is. We don’t attempt to hide it, y’know–and you are trying to derail the topic. My point isn’t whether you are right about what we believe regarding abortion. You aren’t, but that’s beside the point. the POINT, as far as I am concerned, is that no Catholic–representing Catholicism–has the moral right to criticise the LDS abortion policy. Not until y’all start actually living according to your OWN. See, the problem is–how can we have a conversation about this when it’s so obvious that Catholics don’t believe in their own policy in this matter? It’s a little like a Muslim holding classes in the Quran in Starbucks, or a Quaker preaching peace–while holding a semi-automatic on you.

It just doesn’t work.

As to those individual Catholics who believe in their own teachings–fine. They still don’t have the moral right to come after me, when they should be spending their abortion fighting time going after the women who are actually HAVING abortions: their own Catholic sisters. When y’all get your own numbers to approximately the same as ours, then we’ll talk.

You also seem to have troubles distinguishing between what a teaching is against sin and people who go against this teaching and commit a personal sin. Do you have this problem with Mormon teaching as well as Catholic?

I did give you an example of an area I wouldn’t preach in, y’know, for that reason.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, I know, you support the killing of the unborn, and would like to come here to justify your horrific belief by having contempt for truth.

I’m not attempting to justify anything. In all my posts on this thread, I haven’t really addressed the issue of whether we are justified in our approach. The reason why I haven’t is because we don’t have to excuse our doctrine, or our practices, to any Catholic. Not in this area—not when the Catholic woman faced with this decision is *three times more likely to have an abortion *than a Mormon woman is in the same situation…and this is FACT, supported by every single study I’ve come across, Mormon, Catholic, neutral, studies that don’t give a hoot what religion the woman is (and don’t ask)…you name it. There isn’t a single study out there, not even ONE, that would have the Mormon abortion rate coming close to the Catholic one. Most of them claim that Catholics have abortions at 4 to 5 times the rate Mormons do, but since the lowest rate is 3 times, that’s what I have been using.

Compare it by self identification…now we are in the 4 to 5 times rate. Compare it by state, and interpolating the percentages of Catholic/Mormon population (that’s the Utah/Rhode Island comparison) you get three times. Compare it by neighboring state ‘out of state’ abortion rates, the rate is still between 3 to 4 times. Compare it according to nations–

Italy: Catholic population, 90%
Abortion ratio…19%
USA Catholic population 28%
Abortion Ratio 15%
Rhode Island
Catholic population…63%
Abortion Ratio 26%
Utah Mormon population…62.4
Abortion Ratio 6%
Phillipines
Catholic population…80%
Abortion ratio…25%

…and the situation in the Phillipines is particularly tragic, because all of those abortions are illegal, and Catholic hospitals there refuse to treat any woman for post abortion bleeding because they are sinners. 100,000 women end up in government run hospitals every year because of botched abortions–where the doctors will treat the women without anesthesia in order to punish them.

Don’t believe me, Rebecca. Go do your own research and confirm this. I’ve spent a LOT of time on this issue over the last week or so, because I honestly couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I thought…this can’t be right. I don’t believe these numbers. C’mon…but…

I’ve looked at website after peer reviewed journal after government data base after pro-choice after pro-life after…you name it, I’ve looked there, and the situation never falls below a 3:1 Catholic to Mormon abortion rate, and often rises to 4:1 and 5:1. In Latin America, where Catholicism is very much in the majority, the abortion rate is 30%.

NONE of this ‘justifies’ the LDS stand on abortion. It doesn’t even address the LDS stand on abortion, except in the numbers of infants that actually do get born. What it DOES address is the hypocrisy evidenced by any Catholic that has the incredible nerve to call MORMONS 'baby killers." and “murderers.”

And that, Rebecca, is the only thing I’m saying here. Mormons may or may not be right to have the policy we do…but I’m not going to defend it against a group that kills off three to five times more babies than we do.

Fix your own house. THEN come and criticize ours.

I think Stephen has already pointed out the straw man you have going here. Both lives are equal. Unlike your mormon belief, where the unborn is seen as disposable.

What stats are those? You seem to dig up what suits your POV. When I read the stats at Pew, pretty much, Mormons and Catholics give similar answers to abortion questions. They reflect the view of American society as a whole.

Except for Catholics who attend church at least once a week. Their answers to these questions are Catholic answers.

Diana, please take the time to look up what public space means. It isn’t private property, Mormon, Catholic, or otherwise. Why be so obtuse?

You are equivocating, Rebecca. Your term for ‘public space’ seems to include all groups that are anti-abortion, whether those groups are restricted membership or not. Your term for ‘private space’ seems to mean…anything LDS, whether it is accessable to non-Mormons or not.

 

[dianaiad]

Stephen168:
Stephen…

I give you several situations:

A: a Catholic woman is told that if she continues her pregnancy that she will not live past the beginning of the 2 trimester because of her heart and her blood pressure–and that her blood pressure is so high that it is already harming the fetus. It will probably not be viable. The recomendation is: have an abortion now, fix her heart, and try again.

Catholics would say…no abortion. The woman and the fetus both die, but she did not, by golly, SIN.

B: a Catholic woman comes into the hospital at about her sixth week with severe abdominal pain. It turns out that the fetus is growing outside the womb; is actually an ectopic pregnancy. In order to save her life, the fallopian tube…and the ovary on that side, must be removed. Of course, the fetus gets removed too…and of course will die, but hey, y’all didn’t intend to harm the baby, just to cure the mother, right? Never mind that the falopian tube would not have required removing if the BABY WERE NOT IN IT…so it’s not an ‘abortion,’ so the woman isn’t a sinner. I mean, MORMONS know exactly what’s happening here–that this unborn child’s life is being terminated so that Mom can live, and we accept that, and mourn. The Catholic is told, nevermind, we just fixed the problem. Don’t worry about the baby, his dying was just an unfortunate side effect.

C: A Mormon woman comes into the hospital at about the 2 or 3 week, with some abdominal pain. It is discovered that she too has an ectopic pregnancy, but it is so early that it is POSSIBLE to remove the fetus and actually repair the fallopean tube, so that her fertility is preserved. She will live, and might even be able to have a baby using that ovary/fallopean tube system. It is done, and the woman knows exactly what happened. The life of this unborn child was ended to save the life and fertility of the mother. this is a direct ending of the life of the fetus, now; the entire point of the procedure is to get that fetus out of where it is, and since no two week old fetus (is it a fetus yet, at two weeks?) can live outside the womb, then to kill it.

D: Same scenario, with a Catholic woman. What do you think the decision will be there? Do you attempt to save her fertility and her life, or do you wait until you MUST remove the ruptured fallopian tube so that you can say “we had to remove one of the mother’s organs to save her life–and if the unborn child was in it at the time, oh well…”?

I just read the Catholic encyclopedia article about the Catholic view of murder. Interesting read, that. They used an example in war; if a commander orders a barrage of fire at a building that is in the way, then even though the commander KNOWS that enemy soldiers and non-combatants are IN the building, it’s not murder to shell the building and kill everybody in it because the goal is to remove the building, not to kill the people in it. It is also not murder for the soldiers doing the firing, since they are operating under the orders of the commander. It’s all on him.

On the other hand, if the reason that the building needs to be removed is BECAUSE there are enemy soldiers and other people in it, and the commander fires on it and kills everybody, that’s another situation. That could very well be murder because even though the goal is to remove the house, the reason FOR that goal is the presence of the people whose death destroying the house will encompass.

Now…it seems to me that if you guys get this in terms of murder for the born folks, why is it so hard to grasp when you are talking about the unborn?

 

[Stephen168]

What she is trying to do is define accidents as murder and then claim the Catholic Church accepts murder in some situations, too.

…and where am I attempting to do that, Stephen?

Stephen…

I give you several situations:

A: a Catholic woman is told that if she continues her pregnancy that she will not live past the beginning of the 2 trimester because of her heart and her blood pressure–and that her blood pressure is so high that it is already harming the fetus. It will probably not be viable. The recomendation is: have an abortion now, fix her heart, and try again.

Catholics would say…no abortion. The woman and the fetus both die, but she did not, by golly, SIN.

B: a Catholic woman comes into the hospital at about her sixth week with severe abdominal pain. It turns out that the fetus is growing outside the womb; is actually an ectopic pregnancy. In order to save her life, the fallopian tube…and the ovary on that side, must be removed. Of course, the fetus gets removed too…and of course will die, but hey, y’all didn’t intend to harm the baby, just to cure the mother, right? Never mind that the falopian tube would not have required removing if the BABY WERE NOT IN IT…so it’s not an ‘abortion,’ so the woman isn’t a sinner. I mean, MORMONS know exactly what’s happening here–that this unborn child’s life is being terminated so that Mom can live, and we accept that, and mourn. The Catholic is told, nevermind, we just fixed the problem. Don’t worry about the baby, his dying was just an unfortunate side effect.

C: A Mormon woman comes into the hospital at about the 2 or 3 week, with some abdominal pain. It is discovered that she too has an ectopic pregnancy, but it is so early that it is POSSIBLE to remove the fetus and actually repair the fallopean tube, so that her fertility is preserved. She will live, and might even be able to have a baby using that ovary/fallopean tube system. It is done, and the woman knows exactly what happened. The life of this unborn child was ended to save the life and fertility of the mother. this is a direct ending of the life of the fetus, now; the entire point of the procedure is to get that fetus out of where it is, and since no two week old fetus (is it a fetus yet, at two weeks?) can live outside the womb, then to kill it.

D: Same scenario, with a Catholic woman. What do you think the decision will be there? Do you attempt to save her fertility and her life, or do you wait until you MUST remove the ruptured fallopian tube so that you can say “we had to remove one of the mother’s organs to save her life–and if the unborn child was in it at the time, oh well…”?

I just read the Catholic encyclopedia article about the Catholic view of murder. Interesting read, that. They used an example in war; if a commander orders a barrage of fire at a building that is in the way, then even though the commander KNOWS that enemy soldiers and non-combatants are IN the building, it’s not murder to shell the building and kill everybody in it because the goal is to remove the building, not to kill the people in it. It is also not murder for the soldiers doing the firing, since they are operating under the orders of the commander. It’s all on him.

On the other hand, if the reason that the building needs to be removed is BECAUSE there are enemy soldiers and other people in it, and the commander fires on it and kills everybody, that’s another situation. That could very well be murder because even though the goal is to remove the house, the reason FOR that goal is the presence of the people whose death destroying the house will encompass.

Now…it seems to me that if you guys get this in terms of murder for the born folks, why is it so hard to grasp when you are talking about the unborn?

 

[Stephen168]

I think Stephen has already pointed out the straw man you have going here. Both lives are equal. Unlike your mormon belief, where the unborn is seen as disposable.

She is beating that strawman to pieces; while telling Catholics what we believe, again/still. All the while avoiding what the Mormon Church teaches about the sub/non-human nature of children of incestuous parents.