N
Nine_Two
Guest
You mean a conflict that many saw as inevitable as early as the first decade of the 19th century was predicted in the middle of that same century?
- Status
I
Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
Wow! He predicted in 1832 that there would be war in South Carolina!
He must have been some kinda prophet to have figured that out at the height of the Nullification Conflict.
In 1832 SC issued an act of nullification, which essentially was a notice of noncompliance with the 1828 abominable tariff and the tariff of 1832. Together these tariffs unfairly taxed southern ports to favor the north. SC took action with the 1832 Ordinance of Nullification and proceeded to ready the state militia for the expected military conflict soon to follow. Congress passed a Force Bill giving Pres. Andrew Jackson the authority he had been agitating for. The power to enforce the federal governments will upon the states by military force.
This was the political environment that Joseph Smith was in when he “Prophesied” there would be war. The only reason there wasn’t then was that the conflict was temporarily diffused by a bill repealing the above mentioned tariffs in favor of one that wouldn’t divide the country in a bloody war.
J
Janderich
Guest
In this prophecy Joseph Smith names specifically that the war will commence in South Carolina and that the Southern States will call upon Great Britain for aid. The most detailed statements of this prophecy are correct. Since these two points are now historical fact you cannot call them into question. As seen in the above post you are now relegated to try and minimize what was said or take other less detailed statements and call them into question.Wow! He predicted in 1832 that there would be war in South Carolina!
He must have been some kinda prophet to have figured that out at the height of the Nullification Conflict.
In 1832 SC issued an act of nullification, which essentially was a notice of noncompliance with the 1828 abominable tariff and the tariff of 1832. Together these tariffs unfairly taxed southern ports to favor the north. SC took action with the 1832 Ordinance of Nullification and proceeded to ready the state militia for the expected military conflict soon to follow. Congress passed a Force Bill giving Pres. Andrew Jackson the authority he had been agitating for. The power to enforce the federal governments will upon the states by military force.
This was the political environment that Joseph Smith was in when he “Prophesied” there would be war. The only reason there wasn’t then was that the conflict was temporarily diffused by a bill repealing the above mentioned tariffs in favor of one that wouldn’t divide the country in a bloody war.
T
Telstar
Guest
This is something I’ve known about for years. (I’ve mentioned it in other threads and even considered starting one about it.) It is rather disturbing to consider the ramifications of what could happen if enough Mormons really believed it. Of course, like almost every other odd belief that they’ve had over the years, most Mormons deny that it’s ever really been believed, or even taken seriously by any Mormon. But, for something that’s claimed not to be taken seriously, there have been a great number of LDS leaders over the years, that have made long speeches about it, or at least mentioned it as if it was a matter of fact, even at General Conference.
Glenn Beck has used the phrase “the Constitution is hanging by a thread” many times, even though he’s always careful not to tell people where that phrase comes from, so he doesn’t divulge the source of his ‘concern’ about it. Although he denies that he believes in the WHP when he’s directly asked about it, it’s pretty clear (to me, anyway… after listening to him for a very long time, in the past) that he really does believe that the time for it to occur is very close, and it will happen, eventually. Like I said, I listened to him for years on radio before most people even knew who he was, and long before his TV show.
Many LDS are somewhat obsessed with the Constitution, and the founding fathers. At least, many of the LDS in the US certainly are. I’m not so sure about those in the rest of the world who probably don’t even realize it. But, just listening to GB talk about either of them, will make it very clear that he looks at them with extreme reverence, as if they were equal to the ancient Prophets and their writings. Considering that those men weren’t really all that “saintly”, and that document is not exactly considered to be equal to scripture by any Christians, it’s hard to understand why else he would believe they were. (Obviously, Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders thought they were.) He even rewrote “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine, and his new book “Being George Washington” certainly reflects his own obsession with all of those men, that most likely comes from his background in LDS beliefs. It’s as if they see the Constitution as a ‘sacred document’, inspired or even written by God, Himself.
So, when you combine the LDS belief in the “White Horse Prophecy”, with the belief that one of their primary missions and goals is eventually to establish “God’s Kingdom” (Zion) as a real government entity on earth, it makes it even more disturbing to think about, IMHO. Finally, if you throw in their propensity to keep so many secrets (even from each other) by taking ‘sacred oaths’; their obsession with their own community, as well as individual, defense against any ‘enemies’; storing up food and other supplies (including gold and silver for when the ‘economy collapses’) for some unforeseen future ‘crisis’; you’ve got a formula that shows that they’re seriously preparing for some kind of devastation that’s much more than just being ready in case of a hurricane, or any other kind of bad weather. They’re also convinced that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent. They also believe that they will be the ones who’ll control “God’s Kingdom” on earth during ‘the millennium’, when that happens.
Call me crazy or a conspiracy theorist, but I think it might just be something that many believe is worth seriously considering to be true, and, when someone believes in something strongly enough, they will sometimes do anything they can to make it happen because they think it’s inevitable, especially if they believe it’s sanctioned by God. I doubt that all Mormons are even aware of, or believe in the prophecy, but for those that are aware and do believe it, who knows to what lengths some might be willing to go in making it happen, just to fulfill the prophecy. There are always a few extremists in every religion, that tend to go overboard in their religious zeal.
Glenn Beck has used the phrase “the Constitution is hanging by a thread” many times, even though he’s always careful not to tell people where that phrase comes from, so he doesn’t divulge the source of his ‘concern’ about it. Although he denies that he believes in the WHP when he’s directly asked about it, it’s pretty clear (to me, anyway… after listening to him for a very long time, in the past) that he really does believe that the time for it to occur is very close, and it will happen, eventually. Like I said, I listened to him for years on radio before most people even knew who he was, and long before his TV show.
Many LDS are somewhat obsessed with the Constitution, and the founding fathers. At least, many of the LDS in the US certainly are. I’m not so sure about those in the rest of the world who probably don’t even realize it. But, just listening to GB talk about either of them, will make it very clear that he looks at them with extreme reverence, as if they were equal to the ancient Prophets and their writings. Considering that those men weren’t really all that “saintly”, and that document is not exactly considered to be equal to scripture by any Christians, it’s hard to understand why else he would believe they were. (Obviously, Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders thought they were.) He even rewrote “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine, and his new book “Being George Washington” certainly reflects his own obsession with all of those men, that most likely comes from his background in LDS beliefs. It’s as if they see the Constitution as a ‘sacred document’, inspired or even written by God, Himself.
So, when you combine the LDS belief in the “White Horse Prophecy”, with the belief that one of their primary missions and goals is eventually to establish “God’s Kingdom” (Zion) as a real government entity on earth, it makes it even more disturbing to think about, IMHO. Finally, if you throw in their propensity to keep so many secrets (even from each other) by taking ‘sacred oaths’; their obsession with their own community, as well as individual, defense against any ‘enemies’; storing up food and other supplies (including gold and silver for when the ‘economy collapses’) for some unforeseen future ‘crisis’; you’ve got a formula that shows that they’re seriously preparing for some kind of devastation that’s much more than just being ready in case of a hurricane, or any other kind of bad weather. They’re also convinced that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent. They also believe that they will be the ones who’ll control “God’s Kingdom” on earth during ‘the millennium’, when that happens.
Call me crazy or a conspiracy theorist, but I think it might just be something that many believe is worth seriously considering to be true, and, when someone believes in something strongly enough, they will sometimes do anything they can to make it happen because they think it’s inevitable, especially if they believe it’s sanctioned by God. I doubt that all Mormons are even aware of, or believe in the prophecy, but for those that are aware and do believe it, who knows to what lengths some might be willing to go in making it happen, just to fulfill the prophecy. There are always a few extremists in every religion, that tend to go overboard in their religious zeal.
J
Jerusha
Guest
Agreed 100%
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Yes…all of these things were known and/or suspected by thousands of people, speculated in the press and discussed all over. Nice try, but if you want to get a bertter idea of his prophesies, lets look at his prophesy that there would be men on the moon dressed as Quakers
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I agree. Also, their end-times beliefs, it influences what they expect and will tolerate, especially in regards to mid-East policy and action. The same issues with George W. Bush, with Evangelical end-time belief that are similar to Mormons. They expect war, and see it as necessary to bringing in their ideas of millennium. Very concerning to anyone who desires peace.
M
mtolympus
Guest
Thank you for your thoughtful and honest analysis. I thought it was interesting and fairly accurate. I think you may have some concerns that are unfounded. The LDS definely believe that the early leaders we insired by God when they wrote U. S Constitution. I hope you don’t see our desire to defend of the constitution as some kind of a threat.
It is true that Latter-day Saints have been strongly encouraged to be prepared in case of any type of emergency or disaster including having a years supply of food. Many times these emergency supplies have been helpful for personal or community needs. I think Glenn Beck has been good in encouraging others outside of the LDS church to also prepare for the future. And for teaching that during a time of need these supplies should be shared with neighbors who are in need. Anyone who studies the scriptures know there will be rough times ahead. (I think Protestants often refer to it the “tribluation.”)
The “White Horse Prophecy” is very speculative and undocumented and I have never heard it discussed by other Mormons or mentioned by leaders of the church. On the other hand, the statement about the constitution hanging by a tread is well accepted and attributed to Joseph Smith. It was never recorded but slightly different versions have been recorded by those who were present.
Thanks again for your honest and interesting analysis.
T
Telstar
Guest
That’s the biggest danger in obsessing over prophecies of any kind. People get so hung up on their own interpretations of how they could or would happen, that they may actually start trying to make them happen by stirring up other people to help them set it in motion. If those prophecies are from questionable sources, and aren’t really from God, then it makes it even more likely that they will end in disaster if anyone decides to force them to happen. That’s what makes me so apprehensive about all of the attention that’s given to “rapture” type preachers that believe they’re the ones that are “called to action”, to somehow prepare the way for the Second Coming.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
My Mormon family see every war, disaster, calamity, pandemic, etc. as “signs of the times”. In as way, they want these sort of things to happen, as it supports their belief of what these things mean.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Remember the LDS prophet in the early 60s that said man will NEVER EVER make it to the moon?
Gotta love LDS prophets
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I’m old, but not old enough to remember that.
T
Telstar
Guest
Thank you for your kind words. I’m certainly not saying that there’s anything wrong with defending the Constitution. I’m all for that. I think it’s pretty obvious that there are a lot of people that seem to want to change it to fit their own interpretations of what it means (much like those that like to reinterpret the Bible), or ignore it’s original intent, altogether. My real concern is based more on the idea of the prophecy when combined with the principles of the LDS belief that claims they’ll be the ones who will “reign” over all the earth during the “millennium”. With that in mind, it’s not much of a stretch to think that some of them could believe that they need to take over the country, even by force, if they felt it was the only way to preserve the Constitution. If the prophet told them that God said they had to do it, I think it might be done without very much hesitation on the part of TBMs. I know it seems highly unlikely that it could ever happen, but who really knows for sure? I also know that many Mormons are very much into weapons and military type training, so that doesn’t exactly give me a very warm and fuzzy feeling, either.
In recent years, Glenn has become completely obsessed with “preparing” for the future because he’s convinced the world is going to hell in a hand-basket. Most of the people that listened to his radio show when he first went national have stopped listening since he changed his format to appeal to a more “serious” audience for his move to TV. His radio show went from being a combination of serious and silly, to almost all serious/all the time. Things that he always thought were funny, before, were suddenly not worthy of him doing. Needless to say, that was a 180 degree turn around from the guy that always used to refer to himself as a “rodeo clown”.
He also started getting much more “politically correct”, which he always made fun of other people for doing. If you read “The Real America”, in one part he rails against talk radio guys that did all of those same things that he did, when he went on TV. Many of his biggest fans started calling him “Mr. Gloom & Doom” on his own forum, after that happened. Yeah, I was one of those real hardcore fans, once upon a time. What’s really scarey is that he has a lot of new, very hardcore fans, that believe everything he says as if it was the gospel truth, coming right from the mouth of a true prophet.
You can do a search on lds.org and find lots of references and quotes from the highest leaders in the church about it. I find it hard to believe that any Mormon could avoid hearing it used by them in speeches, as well as in many of their teachings.
I didn’t know anything about it until someone on GB’s forum mentioned it when he made one of his many references about the Constitution “hanging by a thread”. I looked it up and read a lot about it, from lots of different online sources. It seems to me that there has certainly been a lot of speculation amongst LDS about it over the years. Many people still deny that Joseph Smith ever said it, but with so many of his contemporaries and others down to the present day discussing it as if he actually did, I think it’s much more accepted as being true than they would ever admit to outsiders (aka, “gentiles”). Knowing that they have many other beliefs that are only talked about among believers, it wouldn’t surprise me if this is one of those things that are kept very close to the vest, especially when any LDS runs for an important office like president.
T
Telstar
Guest
Exactly. People that are obsessed with thinking that we’re living in the “end times”, and the Second Coming will happen any day now, always see everything as if it was a sign of the end coming. We’ve actually been living in the “end times” (aka, the last days) ever since Jesus was born. This is the end times, the last era of time, but the actual day and hour of Jesus returning is only known by God. No man will ever really know for sure when it will happen.
J
Jessup
Guest
Most of my friends are LDS, and what they have told me. From what I can recall and what I understand. That Joseph Smith stated that the USA will be fighting in multiple wars,which it can not manage will go bankrupt. Then…(this is the part I can’t exactly recall, lol ) … Then the people will be frustrated with a two party system and a 3rd party will arise and restore the constitution.
I am personally thankful for the patriotic attitudes that the LDS produces to protect the constitution.
Cheers!
I am personally thankful for the patriotic attitudes that the LDS produces to protect the constitution.
Cheers!
A
andrewstx
Guest
Parker do you think it’s good that women should be treated as second class citizens, as chattel relegated to Relief Society only?
P
ParkerD
Guest
Andrew,
I would answer that you must be kidding, since at the local level the Relief Society is often more effective in service and delegating assignments for that service, than the men of the priesthood. At the general organization level, “Relief Society” sisters speak in General Conference giving some of the “best” (because they so often go right to the heart of the listeners) discourses (i.e. speeches or talks). At the general level, the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are repeatedly encouraging and following up on seeing to it that the “Relief Society” sisters are fully involved at the local levels by giving their leadership (name removed by moderator)ut and insights in ward council meetings with the priesthood men. This even among “cultures” where the women have been placed by their culture into a role of being treated as non-leaders in their communities and in their homes. (I am not talking about the United States, nor about European countries.)
I observe that Relief Society sisters are treated as “first class citizens” in every conceivable way, and this is not only encouraged but is built into the system of councils that is directed within the organization.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Both LDS and Catholic cultures lack women in the highest leadership roles. But, the difference between the two, as I see it and having lived both, is that LDS teaching defines women as a utilitarian function in relationship to men.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Not true. In the temple, at least when I attended, Women had to swear to OBEY husbands. That does not sound very equal
P
ParkerD
Guest
I can see how a person can take a few phrases and make that kind of assumption, but at the real living of life level, it is incorrect. It may reflect how an individual was raised in their own family and how they perceived their extended family, but to generalize from that is to assume incorrectly that all families are “the same as mine”.
- Status